AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[jeanfluflu]

I think that these dragons can benefit from a more realistic paint job, with a couple of changes and different colors they can do great i believe:

[Sapca]

2 hours ago, lare2 said:

I actually prefer the new ones. 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Smaug

Even Smaug?

[Domize]

10 hours ago, Sleepa said:

If the tradeoff is the 3+ save, they will honestly need to offer a lot more than +1 damage. I suspect they will have some warscroll abilities to add some additional functionality.

The real question is what the hell is GW doing to Judicators to make them 190 with Crossbows and 200 with bows?! Feels like they must be getting completely new profiles to justify that cost.

Sorry if I missed this, but where are you getting all this point information from?

[lare2]

1 hour ago, Sapca said:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Smaug

Even Smaug?

That is a pretty mighty fine dragon.

[PJetski]

2 hours ago, Domize said:

Sorry if I missed this, but where are you getting all this point information from?

It's all based on my earlier guess that Vanquishers are just like Vindictors but with damage 2 and 4+ save

[NauticalSoup]

8 hours ago, PJetski said:

3+ save is better than 2 damage for the same reason that Liberators have always been superior to Sequitors...

...

If you dont understand how strong 3+ saves are right now I suggest you play more games of AOS 3.0

The reason Liberators have always been 'superior' to Sequitors is (first of all not true, because at the start of 2.0 Sequitors were very strong before they fell behind the rules curve and got an unnecessary points nerf, but putting that aside) that Liberators are cheaper. That's it. The literal only reason. The Liberator is one of the worst units in the entire game, and it speaks volumes about SCE's 2.0 book that such a worthless unit is still the best battleline option just so you can squeeze out a few more points for something that actually does work. You could probably take away the Liberator's attacks entirely and it would STILL be the superior battleline choice because SCE battleline is useless, so the best option is just to pay for as little of it as you can. 

And 3+ saves are fantastic, I bring as many good saves as I can fit... on units that matter. Units that produce and which your opponent will want dead. And those units tend to reduce 3+ save battleline chaff to bubbling soup with damage to spare. At the price SCE pay for wounds and attacks don't expect to see even a buffed up 2+ save to take you far in the batteline slot.

In fact 3+ save Liberators at 115 will be (probably) identically tanky to my Ironbreakers who in 3.0 fold to the monster mash same as everything else.

[PrimeElectrid]

3+ save liberators was a pre-FAQ rumour, fwiw I think they will stay at 4+ ignore rend 1.

[jeanfluflu]

5 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

3+ save liberators was a pre-FAQ rumour, fwiw I think they will stay at 4+ ignore rend 1.

And they are really good in that configuration, against most of attacks they will keep their 3+ save (castellant/staunch defender/all out defense), they are very tanky for a cheap price, i love them.

[PJetski]

2 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

The reason Liberators have always been 'superior' to Sequitors is (first of all not true, because at the start of 2.0 Sequitors were very strong before they fell behind the rules curve and got an unnecessary points nerf, but putting that aside) that Liberators are cheaper. That's it. The literal only reason. The Liberator is one of the worst units in the entire game, and it speaks volumes about SCE's 2.0 book that such a worthless unit is still the best battleline option just so you can squeeze out a few more points for something that actually does work. You could probably take away the Liberator's attacks entirely and it would STILL be the superior battleline choice because SCE battleline is useless, so the best option is just to pay for as little of it as you can. 

And 3+ saves are fantastic, I bring as many good saves as I can fit... on units that matter. Units that produce and which your opponent will want dead. And those units tend to reduce 3+ save battleline chaff to bubbling soup with damage to spare. At the price SCE pay for wounds and attacks don't expect to see even a buffed up 2+ save to take you far in the batteline slot.

In fact 3+ save Liberators at 115 will be (probably) identically tanky to my Ironbreakers who in 3.0 fold to the monster mash same as everything else.

Why does it matter if Liberators are cheaper than Sequitors? Because they're both just speedbumps and one of them costs less points. The Sequitors additional utility of doing more damage and re-rolling save rolls in combat (assuming you weren't up against a fight first enemy) was not enough to justify the extra points spent on a unit whose role is to stand on objectives and/or get in the way of things. Liberators are more efficient, like I said earlier. You are correct that they could deal literally 0 damage and still be the better choice.

The same logic of utility tradeoffs exists in Vindictor vs Vanquisher. You need screens. Is it more valuable for your screen to deal more damage or take more damage? Neither unit will stop a Maw-Krusha or Terrorgheist but it has the potential to stop any unit that doesn't do significant mortal wounds, and that kind of utility should not be undervalued. It's like having a pawn in chess that can suddenly just become immune to other pawns and also sometimes a rook. This kind of tactic is a lot less useful if you have a 4+ save instead of a 3+. Furthermore if they're throwing heavy mortal wounds and rend into your screen then they are not putting them into your Dracoths, Evocators, etc. If you use a 4+ save screen they may not have to use those resources to clear them out.

In this hypothetical scenario where Vanquishers are just +1D/-1S Vindictors I think the utility of a 3+ save far outweighs the extra damage. Maybe they will have some other cool special rule that makes them worth considering for a battleline slot (fight first, hit6 = 2mw, re-rollable charges, etc.).

It's probably the case that neither unit is worth bringing instead of Liberators, since spending as little as needed on battleline has always been the correct approach with Stormcast

[NauticalSoup]

1 minute ago, PJetski said:

It's probably the case that neither unit is worth bringing instead of Liberators, since spending as little as needed on battleline has always been the correct approach with Stormcast

This, at least, we agree on. The differences between the two more expensive units will probably be moot if they aren't *significantly* better than Liberators.

[Juicy]

It's probably the case that neither unit is worth bringing instead of Liberators, since spending as little as needed on battleline has always been the correct approach with Stormcast

 

SAD but still true in 3.0 i feel

[NauticalSoup]

If anything it might actually be more true. My 3.0 experience listing very far into a somewhat unpleasant herohammer/godhammer edition which significantly devalues regular combat troops, and they were already pretty iffy in 2.0.

Edited July 27, 2021 by NauticalSoup
typo

[jhamslam]

Yeah so far im feeling that AOS has a Godhammer problem, THe all out defence, with hero actions and monster actions has made it super oppressive to take just foot troops and score points. Gotrek is fast becoming an auto take, but hes part of the problem

[NauticalSoup]

Part of the problem and part of the 'solution' when you don't have good monster hero access. I expect Gotrek to get nerfed because he's supposed to be a gimmick piece, which will end up exacerbating the problem because he's the only answer a bunch of armies have for dealing with super units.

[LordPrometheus]

2 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

Part of the problem and part of the 'solution' when you don't have good monster hero access. I expect Gotrek to get nerfed because he's supposed to be a gimmick piece, which will end up exacerbating the problem because he's the only answer a bunch of armies have for dealing with super units.

Yeah, like Stormcast currently. Although hopefully that changes with the new tome.

[lare2]

Disheartening to read the opinions about Sequitors. Recently converted up a LA on foot to run 2x5 to cover battleline. Was thinking 2 wounds with a 5+ fnp sounded pretty tasty. 

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

Disheartening to read the opinions about Sequitors. Recently converted up a LA on foot to run 2x5 to cover battleline. Was thinking 2 wounds with a 5+ fnp sounded pretty tasty. 

Don't be disheartened, it's plenty tasty - people here like to talk in extremes. We'll see what the new book brings, but I think they'll still be completely viable. 

[mystycalchemy]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

Disheartening to read the opinions about Sequitors. Recently converted up a LA on foot to run 2x5 to cover battleline. Was thinking 2 wounds with a 5+ fnp sounded pretty tasty. 

Same here, but a lot of opinions here (especially about 'which unit is best') are given through a lens of tournament play. So if you never plan on going to a tournament with your list, dont let that turn you away! And even if you do plan on going to tournaments, practice with a list will go a long way then just jamming the new 'best' broken list with minimal experience

But hey, I'm no tournament player, I'm just here to have fun with lightning paladins B)

[Lengthster]

2 hours ago, lare2 said:

Disheartening to read the opinions about Sequitors. Recently converted up a LA on foot to run 2x5 to cover battleline. Was thinking 2 wounds with a 5+ fnp sounded pretty tasty. 

Sequitors are my backbone and are really versatile even in MSU, they can be tanky if you need them to live, or pump a bit of extra power into them. Their attacks are alright on their own, so I usually default to their ward save, unless I need them to kill something immediately and they won't be killed first. 4+ save that can easily be brought to 3+ with a 5+ ward is great, not to mention that they can actually hit back.

I haven't been playing for long but I tend to win my casual games (80% winrate across 15 games). Even did well in some small tournaments (still sorta casual), 2-1 in a 1k tournament (my first 3 games ever) and 3-1 in a 2k tournament, losses were against Tzeentch and Lumineth.

I run a lot of Sacrosanct stuff plus heroes like the Castellant, Veritant sometimes etc, slowly testing some Dominion stuff out. In comparison, the other Stormcast player here runs a lot of first forging stuff, I'm not sure on his record overall but both times I've played him (during the tournaments), I've won. I'm just one data point but I like Seccies

[NauticalSoup]

6 hours ago, lare2 said:

Disheartening to read the opinions about Sequitors. Recently converted up a LA on foot to run 2x5 to cover battleline. Was thinking 2 wounds with a 5+ fnp sounded pretty tasty. 

Ultimately it's a matter of framing. If you're comparing unit effectiveness you're pretty much always talking comp, it's fundamentally a meta discussion about how to build the best possible armies that will win you the most games, which is how a unit that might be perfectly adequate in casual play can get described as 'useless'. Only has to be marginally worse than a contemporary to be bad in that context.

And all these units could have radically altered warscrolls anyway so any current comparisons are about to be obsolete. New Seqs might not just be Liberator+ now, who knows.

[PJetski]

I call units useless but I play "useless" models all the time. It's fun to make value judgements and try to optimize - that is a big reason I like tournament play - but ultimately it is still a game with miniatures that I want to put on the table because they look cool and I spent a lot of time painting them.

[Mark Williams]

Played a few game this past week with the new allegiance ability and a selection of random  units. 
 

concerning liberators and sequitors at 4+ without rerolls. I feel like they die even faster now, and they are bad targets to spend cp on. I concur with what some others have said, that they are just sorta speed bumps to briefly protect better units.

First game with Yndrasta, she feels kinda broken with a 4+ ward save and healing from heroic recovery. She tanked so much.

Vindicators are pretty decent all rounders if they don’t get focused too quickly.

Not sure what to think of annihilators yet. 
 

The smaller board size really changes the game. I’ve been “alpha struck” on turn 1 by every army I’ve faced so far.

The new allegiance ability feels meh. It’s not unwelcome but doesn’t feel like it does much.

Stormcast is still Stormcast. 

[Turragor]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

I call units useless but I play "useless" models all the time. It's fun to make value judgements and try to optimize - that is a big reason I like tournament play - but ultimately it is still a game with miniatures that I want to put on the table because they look cool and I spent a lot of time painting them.

This is the way.  I've taken at least one Stardrake to nearly every tournament I've played in all editions and I don't regret it - even if I could maybe have got further with more optimisation.

A big part of this hobby when you play matched at tournaments is making peace with the way it is.

[Scurvydog]

Looking forward to the new book a lot, so any game data right now is probably close to useless, although I'd assume the dominion model warscrolls will be pretty much the same. I played around with them in 2000 pts games and Yndrasta really was a big winner, her damage is not good, but fits her point cost and she has the staying power that the Celestant Prime has been lacking all this time.

Praetors are fun too, they are great for especially Yndrasta, attacking her becomes a bother as she is then only damaged on a 1-2 and she then shrugs damage on a 4+, 3-4 actually hits the praetors and 5-6 is just ignored! that divides damage output so much that she is about pointless to attack if Praetors are near and if you do not kill them all, she can rez 1 of them each round. 

Annihilators are a bit odd, I will withhold judgement until I see what their great hammers do, as that might give the unit some more punch, although I wonder if they are just going to be better Retributors at that point. They are currently rather tanky and can hold the line well with all out defense. They are a real problem to throw into somebodys flank or lighlty guarded objective as they both hurt a lot when they charge in, and are hard to remove. 

I still think Stormcast will have some trouble with the points increases and low model count, if they do not get any bonuses to objective scoring. Even with better damage and all the armor in the world, they could easily end up getting behind in points most games, as they need to chop through too many units to even be able to score. It doesnt matter if you survive and table your opponent by round 4 if you are too far behind in points.

[lare2]

Thanks for the pointers regarding Sequitors. Glad to hear I'm not wasting my time... although with the new book so close, who knows! Ha ha! I hope not though as I really like the cut of their jib. In fact, all the Sacrosanct units look pretty sweet. I do like tournies but I'm never bothered about winning. I'm happy if I get the one win and just like the vibe of being involved.