AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Champasaur]

25 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

while I lean in favour of this outcome, I'd say the confusion is warranted. The praetors came out at the same time as Yndrasta, and while the latter's ability is clearly labelled as a "ward save" in her warsroll, the former's is not.

So IMHO the first part of the question is about the interpreation of rule 14.3, notably this passage:

"Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a
wound before it is allocated to a model. Abilities of
this type are referred to as wards"

Does this mean that:

1) all abilities that fit within the criteria of the first sentence are wards

or

2) all abilities which are labelled as "wards" have the effect described in the first sentence

The second part concerns the fact that the praetors ability doesn't just "allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound" (i.e. it also has the bodyguard effect). Even if we accept interpretation 1 in the first question, does it fit within the criteria to be referred to as a "ward"?

Again, I think it probably won't stack with a ward save in the end, but this should be / have been clarified by an FAQ

I also agree this particular problem is super confusing. I, at first, was on the side that the Praetors and Yndrasta could interact with eachother, because surely GW wouldn't advertise them together so much but not have them be usable together.

But after a lot of thought, I do agree with the ruling that all abilities that fit within the criteria of the first sentence of the rule are wards. (Although it pains me to admit so)

If GW came forward with a clarification against that ruling, I would gladly change my mind. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Champasaur

[PrimeElectrid]

Considering a Stormcast list for an event in august that will sadly pre-date the new book.

Hammers of Sigmar
Lord Arcanum on Gryphcharger (Amulet of Destiny, Thundershock, We Cannot Fail, Windrunner)
Gavriel Sureheart
Knight Incantor
Yndrasta

10 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Evocators
3 Annihilators 
3 Annihilators 

Warlord
Battle Regiment

100 points spare 🤷‍♂️

[CorvoMaltes]

1 hour ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Considering a Stormcast list for an event in august that will sadly pre-date the new book.

Hammers of Sigmar
Lord Arcanum on Gryphcharger (Amulet of Destiny, Thundershock, We Cannot Fail, Windrunner)
Gavriel Sureheart
Knight Incantor
Yndrasta

10 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Evocators
3 Annihilators 
3 Annihilators 

Warlord
Battle Regiment

100 points spare 🤷‍♂️

Add 5 liberators or a couple of endless spells.

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Considering a Stormcast list for an event in august that will sadly pre-date the new book.

Hammers of Sigmar
Lord Arcanum on Gryphcharger (Amulet of Destiny, Thundershock, We Cannot Fail, Windrunner)
Gavriel Sureheart
Knight Incantor
Yndrasta

10 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Evocators
3 Annihilators 
3 Annihilators 

Warlord
Battle Regiment

100 points spare 🤷‍♂️

a unit of aetherwings and go for the +1 to wound triumph. Or consider going for 10 evos and 3 annihilators (+ the said triumph)

[PrimeElectrid]

Swapped 5 Sequitors for 5 liberators, added a Knight Heraldor and 25 point triumph 👍

[Nizrah]

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Grand Strategy: Beast Master
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Yndrasta the Celestial Spear (300)
Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon (300)
- General
- Command Trait: Staunch Defender
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Keen-clawed
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Knight-Azyros (110)
- Mystic Light (Artefact): Lantern of the Tempest
Lord Imperatant (160)

Battleline
10 x Vindicators (280)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Liberators (95)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (95)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
3 x Annihilators (190)
3 x Annihilators (190)
2 x Concussors (235)
3 x Aetherwings (45)

Core Battalions
Warlord
Vanguard
Hunters of the Heartlands

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108

This is my current roster to go. 

[mystycalchemy]

9 hours ago, ThunderstruckTinCan said:

Looks good to me at achieving what you're aiming for (holding points and keeping units up) - my only question will be what will actually kill stuff? Not a lot in there has much firepower for clearing out a horde or a big unit that's a threat. Yndrasta may do okay, but seems a little swingy at times.

I also wonder if the Lord Imperatant is worth all that much without heavy reliance on annihilators/vindictors. Currently only your unit of 10 vindictors will benefit from the 7" drop and they probably won't do too much damage on their own. (7-8 wounds on average against a 4+ save)

I'd be tempted to try swapping out some of the battline units and Imperatant either for a greater shooting threat to trim down threats (e.g. some ballistas and an Ordinator) - or instead go for a unit of 10 evocators or a couple of annihilator units to deepstrike and keep things occupied and away from your objective holders.

 

 

Honestly I'm mostly using the Imperatant for the free command each turn. Getting a free command is a huge boon, I found myself burning a lot of points to try and keep my battlelines alive in the two games I've played so far, so more points are always welcome. If his ability gets added to other units, I'll happily swap him out, but for now that's the main reason I'm using him. You're right though, I am missing a hammer of some kind, 10 evocators sounds pretty good, might make that work and cut down the Libs

7 hours ago, Marcvs said:

while I lean in favour of this outcome, I'd say the confusion is warranted. The praetors came out at the same time as Yndrasta, and while the latter's ability is clearly labelled as a "ward save" in her warsroll, the former's is not.

So IMHO the first part of the question is about the interpreation of rule 14.3, notably this passage:

"Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a
wound before it is allocated to a model. Abilities of
this type are referred to as wards"

Does this mean that:

1) all abilities that fit within the criteria of the first sentence are wards

or

2) all abilities which are labelled as "wards" have the effect described in the first sentence

The second part concerns the fact that the praetors ability doesn't just "allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound" (i.e. it also has the bodyguard effect). Even if we accept interpretation 1 in the first question, does it fit within the criteria to be referred to as a "ward"?

Again, I think it probably won't stack with a ward save in the end, but this should be / have been clarified by an FAQ

Agreed, Probably won't stack, but definitely needs an FAQ.

[LordPrometheus]

11 hours ago, mystycalchemy said:

So the series i'd be following (if i'm understanding the intent correctly):

Armor save failed -> wounds calculated -> Praetor Bodyguard ability -> Praetors make ward saves for whatever gets transferred to them & Yndrasta makes ward saves for whatever didn't.

Mostly because as far as I can tell, Death gets to do this with Immortis Guard or Kosargi Nightguard + Radukar. Deathless Minions is a Ward, 100%. So if the bodyguard unit gets the ward save on any that get transferred, logically, the unit that originally got hit would get the ward save on any that didn't get transferred, no?

This is correct. Bodyguard ability is NOT a ward and is never referenced as such in any rules. Yndrasta only checks to see if she passes them to bodyguards. If not, she gets her ward. That's ONE ward ability. Any wounds that DO go to bodyguards go through their special ability, which is not a ward, and even if it was, it would still work with Yndrasta because each unit is allowed ONE ward, and bodyguards haven't used one yet. 

 

[LordPrometheus]

double post

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by LordPrometheus

[the Fel-hand]

Yndrasta and Praetors definitely need a FAQ. I could be convinced either way at this point, though I tend to count the bodyguard rule as a ward because it can negate wounds. That said my limited experience with them suggests that its somewhat of a non issue. Your opponent will target the Praetors first, and I don't think keeping them within 3" and out of combat is going to be a easy. Its still a strong setup because she should last long enough to provide a lot of value.

[NauticalSoup]

12 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

This is correct. Bodyguard ability is NOT a ward and is never referenced as such in any rules.

The ward rule is written in such a way that suggests abilities not stated to be wards are subject to the 'one ward save' restriction. This subject has been beaten to death again and again many pages earlier - right now it remains a coin-flip if these abilities will be allowed to work together and it still needs an FAQ or codex re-write.

 

17 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

Yndrasta only checks to see if she passes them to bodyguards. If not, she gets her ward. That's ONE ward ability. Any wounds that DO go to bodyguards go through their special ability, which is not a ward, and even if it was, it would still work with Yndrasta because each unit is allowed ONE ward, and bodyguards haven't used one yet.

Read the rule again. Units are not allowed one ward, the WOUNDS are alllowed one ward. That means after the first potentially wound-negating roll taken against an about-to-be-allocated wound you are not allowed another.

All that remains to be seen is if GW intends literally all wound negating abilities to be considered wards whether or not they are labelled as such. If that is indeed their intent then that would make the praetor ability a 'ward roll' as per the core rules and thus incompatible with any other ward saves taken against the same wound.

And again, this argument has been hashed out in detail repeatedly. GW's intent remains ambiguous without clarification. Stop with these silly 'I'm a mind-reader I know how GW wants this to work' posts.

[LordPrometheus]

14 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

 

And again, this argument has been hashed out in detail repeatedly. GW's intent remains ambiguous without clarification. Stop with these silly 'I'm a mind-reader I know how GW wants this to work' posts.

This is much more of an "I can read English and it's not defined as a ward save anywhere" post. 

[Champasaur]

1 hour ago, LordPrometheus said:

This is much more of an "I can read English and it's not defined as a ward save anywhere" post. 

It is defined as a ward here. Abilities that allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model are wards. Which would encompass the Praetor Bodyguard ability. The rules are pretty clear imo, but it just doesn't feel or seem as intended. Again this subject has been beaten to death in previous posts and I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that it desperately needs a clear FAQ. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Champasaur

[LordPrometheus]

2 minutes ago, Champasaur said:

It is defined as a ward here. Abilities that allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model are wards. Which would encompass the Praetor Bodyguard ability. The rules are pretty clear imo, but it just doesn't feel or seem as intended. Again this subject has been beaten to death in previous posts and I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that it desperately needs a clear FAQ. 

I see what you're saying, but I think a bodyguard shrug off is different from a normal ward save. 

[Champasaur]

Just now, LordPrometheus said:

I see what you're saying, but I think a bodyguard shrug off is different from a normal ward save. 

And I think that is a perfectly valid ruling, because the ability fits into a 'yes - and' kind of situation with the ward rule. But because each wound is allowed one roll in attempt to negate it, I will be ruling towards the opposite unless a clear FAQ drops that clarifies things.

[PJetski]

If I roll a 5 it's a ward

If I roll a 3 it's not a ward

Requires FAQ

[Champasaur]

Again, the ability allows you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated. Just because the roll failed to negate does not change the fact it is a ward. 

[Lucur]

We had this whole discussion already over several pages. There's disambiguity and an FAQ is needed, til then ask your opponent before the game (or the TO) make your point to them and let's move on in here, alright?

[NinthMusketeer]

If the argument is that an ability must explicitly say ward to be a ward then congrats to Death, Nurgle, and a number of others because all those negation abilities are NOT wards and thereby get to stack.

[Lengthster]

So with all the emphasis on Monsters in GHB2021, what's the best way of going about it? I feel like Yndrasta is an auto-include, but I'm wondering whether we skip monsters to deny some tactics/strategies or try and make use of the realm spell with wizards? I'm also wondering if we'll get a new monster or if we'll have to settle for Stardrakes and Tauralons. With all the monster stuff, do you guys think Tauralon is good now? Maybe Praetors can help keep it alive. 

[Kodos der Henker]

wait for the new book, impossible to say what units are a must or auto-include

[PJetski]

Stormcast MONSTERs are generally underwhelming for their point costs. I like the Templar with a squad of Dracoths, but the Tauralon isn't worth its points.

Thankfully we can ally in all sorts of great MONSTERs like the frostheart phoenix

[schwabbele]

Sad truth. 

[lare2]

Played my first tourney in 3rd yesterday. Was also my first tourney with SCE. Don't have a painted force yet though so ran my mate's first edition army. Was really impressed how they held up. 1 won lost 2 but 1 of the loses was pretty unlucky and the 2nd loss was against the same mate who lent me the army. Thought the Stardrake was class. The Prime sucked mind.

[Marcvs]

3 hours ago, PJetski said:

Stormcast MONSTERs are generally underwhelming for their point costs. I like the Templar with a squad of Dracoths, but the Tauralon isn't worth its points.

Thankfully we can ally in all sorts of great MONSTERs like the frostheart phoenix

I am curious about this. At present warscrolls, what makes you rate the Templar that much better than the Tauralon?

The tauralon has the same save and has a better attack profile  (which doesn't degrade), plus he's a two cast wizard.

I'd argue that rain of stars is worse now, as all chip damage, due to heroic recovery. Is it the jaws that are more useful due to the new coherency rules? or the access to MWs from storm winged / tail? (which, to an extent, can be replicated by arcane bolt / magic)