AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Champasaur]

17 hours ago, stus67 said:

Has anyone built any list with the dominion stuff yet or is everyone sort of in limbo and waiting for the book like me?

Here's a potential list I've put together:

1990 Points
Stormhost: Tempest Lords
Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
Core Battalions: Warlord, Vanguard

Leaders:

Yndrasta the Celestial Spear (300)

Lord-Arcanum (160) - General - Command Trait: Bonds of Noble Duty - Artefact: Patrician's Helm - Spell: Azyrite Halo

Lord Imperatant (160) - Artefact: Arcane Tome (Chain Lightning)

Knight Vexillor with Banner of Apotheosis (125)

UNITS

5 x Vindicators (140) 5 x Vindicators (140) 5 x Vindicators (140)

5 x Sequitors (130) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields

5 x Sequitors (130) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields

3 x Annihilators (190) 3 x Annihilators (190)

3 x Praetors (155)

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS Dais Arcanum (30)

The focus here is mortal wounds with a decent amount of objective control. I really do believe that with how much more effective saves are in 3.0, MW will be much more important in the meta (but we'll see). I've seen people stacking +2/+3 to saves on big important units to ignore rend and keep an insane save. A lot of elite monsters/heroes will have base 3+ saves and using Their Finest Hour, Mystic Shield, and All-Out Defense will give them a 2+ save ignoring 2 rend, which is theoretically insane. So having a good of MW I think will be really effective in the meta, especially when Vindictors go down to 130 points in the new battletome. Vindictors have 6's to hit deal MW, 6's to save deal MW with Azyrite Halo, and Blaze of Glory on a 5+ That's also why I'm trying to focus on more Thunderstrike units to get the Blaze of Glory proc.

I went Tempest Lords so that I can have plenty of command points to keep my infantry line with multiple command abilities. The only units without a 3+ save are the Sequitors. Having enough command points to use All-Out Defense/Attack and Redeploy in the same turn and get the important unit to a 2+ save I think will be clutch. Also making Annihilators ignore 1 rend will make then nigh unkillable. The Praetors will be guarding the Lord Imperatant to keep Guided by Lightning and Chain Lightning up. I'm pretty worried about him being sniped by MW.

I think this list could be better. Like I really don't need the Dais Arcanum (but I think it's just neat). And I could totally drop a unit of Annihilators for a unit of Retributors to get more MW. I also don't know how effective the Knight-Vexillor with Banner is, but I want to test it out and see how it will fare next to some annihilators. The Sequitors are there for decent damage, but I probably will be dropping them for more Vindictors when the new battletome drops and the points change. 

Let me know what ya'll think.

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Champasaur

[Champasaur]

also for anyone that might be wondering what I'm referring to about the point changes, this is it. I know that EVERYTHING WILL CHANGE when the new battletome drops. But it's still fun to plan around what I can.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Champasaur

[Marcvs]

6 hours ago, Champasaur said:

Here's a potential list I've put together:

1990 Points
Stormhost: Tempest Lords
Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
Core Battalions: Warlord, Vanguard

Leaders:

Yndrasta the Celestial Spear (300)

Lord-Arcanum (160) - General - Command Trait: Bonds of Noble Duty - Artefact: Patrician's Helm - Spell: Azyrite Halo

Lord Imperatant (160) - Artefact: Arcane Tome (Chain Lightning)

Knight Vexillor with Banner of Apotheosis (125)

UNITS

5 x Vindicators (140) 5 x Vindicators (140) 5 x Vindicators (140)

5 x Sequitors (130) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields

5 x Sequitors (130) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields

3 x Annihilators (190) 3 x Annihilators (190)

3 x Praetors (155)

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS Dais Arcanum (30)

The focus here is mortal wounds with a decent amount of objective control. I really do believe that with how much more effective saves are in 3.0, MW will be much more important in the meta (but we'll see). I've seen people stacking +2/+3 to saves on big important units to ignore rend and keep an insane save. A lot of elite monsters/heroes will have base 3+ saves and using Their Finest Hour, Mystic Shield, and All-Out Defense will give them a 2+ save ignoring 2 rend, which is theoretically insane. So having a good of MW I think will be really effective in the meta, especially when Vindictors go down to 130 points in the new battletome. Vindictors have 6's to hit deal MW, 6's to save deal MW with Azyrite Halo, and Blaze of Glory on a 5+ That's also why I'm trying to focus on more Thunderstrike units to get the Blaze of Glory proc.

 

I just don't see all this MW output (nor the objective control tbh, since you got only MSU). Using MSU battleline aggressively (the vindicators if I understood correctly) also gives away the battle tactic for free, as the enemy can both kill them and play the primary objectives.

Not sure about the banner either in a MSU build, as the units will in many cases be wiped out before you can activate the resurrection

 

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Marcvs

[Lenwe Seregon]

Hi all,

Sorry if this has been answered already. Can someone explain how prime electrids interacts with the new arcane bolt please

 

Thanks!

[NauticalSoup]

I think it's just broken isn't it? The SCE FAQ was clearly predicated on the assumption a lot of these problems will just go away with a new book.

[Townsie]

According to section 14 of the core third edition rule book, you will assign wounds to models in your unit one by one. Once a model is slain, you don't allocate more wounds to a slain model, you continue to allocate them on the rest of the models in a unit.

Once all wounds have been allocated and all attacks resolved, you remove slain models.

A Lord-Arcanum's Cycle of the Storm ability says that instead of removing a model, you can heal 1 wound on it.

Given a unit of three Liberators with two wounds each receiving three wounds to allocate. You'll end up with two models with 1 wound left since the two first wounds slays the first Liberator who is then healed instead of removed. This might be a bit problematic since the rules generally consider only one model in a unit to be wounded.

Anyway, what becomes even more problematic is when there's only one model left in a unit. If that unit receives wounds enough to slay the model, it will just come back with one wound. And you need either shooting and fighting to destroy the unit, or multiple units fighting them in the same turn.

This can't intended right?

[Marcvs]

27 minutes ago, Townsie said:

According to section 14 of the core third edition rule book, you will assign wounds to models in your unit one by one. Once a model is slain, you don't allocate more wounds to a slain model, you continue to allocate them on the rest of the models in a unit.

Once all wounds have been allocated and all attacks resolved, you remove slain models.

A Lord-Arcanum's Cycle of the Storm ability says that instead of removing a model, you can heal 1 wound on it.

Given a unit of three Liberators with two wounds each receiving three wounds to allocate. You'll end up with two models with 1 wound left since the two first wounds slays the first Liberator who is then healed instead of removed. This might be a bit problematic since the rules generally consider only one model in a unit to be wounded.

Anyway, what becomes even more problematic is when there's only one model left in a unit. If that unit receives wounds enough to slay the model, it will just come back with one wound. And you need either shooting and fighting to destroy the unit, or multiple units fighting them in the same turn.

This can't intended right?

this is still in the new FAQ:

[chord]

325 for the Celestant Prime?   Ok I know with the correct setup he can dish out the pain....but still.... just sneeze in his general direction and he falls over.

 

[Townsie]

2 hours ago, Marcvs said:

this is still in the new FAQ:

Yes but the problem with third edition is that you remove a slain model after all wounds have been allocated. Not when they are slain. So this old FAQ doesn't quite fix this. I mean, I'll play it as intended - which clearly means that you heal a wound on a model as it is slain.

[Talas]

2 minutes ago, chord said:

325 for the Celestant Prime?   Ok I know with the correct setup he can dish out the pain....but still.... just sneeze in his general direction and he falls over.

 

I just want him to be on the table more... I never liked the fact that you have to keep it in reserve just to be effective.

[LordPrometheus]

1 minute ago, Talas said:

I just want him to be on the table more... I never liked the fact that you have to keep it in reserve just to be effective.

I hear ya. Hopefully this changes with his new warscroll. They did change his name, too, so hopefully it's a nice buff.

[boombyeyeah]

I guess Mr. Prime will get a 4+ ward, just like Miss Y.

I am curious about 200p Judicators and what buffs they get, maybe a block of 15 becomes the new shootcast. 

[Champasaur]

6 hours ago, Marcvs said:

I just don't see all this MW output (nor the objective control tbh, since you got only MSU). Using MSU battleline aggressively (the vindicators if I understood correctly) also gives away the battle tactic for free, as the enemy can both kill them and play the primary objectives.

Not sure about the banner either in a MSU build, as the units will in many cases be wiped out before you can activate the resurrection

 

 

I feel like between Vindictors, Annihilators, and two spellcasters can have at least decent MW. And maybe I'm just overestimating Stormcast Deepstrike for objective control (I'm still pretty new at SE). I was gonna do both Annihilators and at least two of the Vindictors in deepstrike at the start. I was going Hold the Line because the list has 5 battleline units, so I figured it would be difficult for an enemy player to elimate all 5. And lastly I went all MSU because other than Azyrite Halo I do not have any big buffs to slap onto units, So I figured MSU would be better for more flexibility, but I still can drop 10 Vindictors on an obj. 

Again, I'm still new to SE. I came from playing Khorne daemons/STD Archaon. So I played very elite. Adjusting from a core of big monsters to a core of elite infantry is taking some adjustments. Thanks for the feedback!

[DanteAlighieri]

I wonder if Aventis Firestrike is going to get any kind of Ward, or if his main option will still be the Steel Pinions (6+ Ward) mount trait.

As a Monster/Hero/Wizard double caster/denier, he seems like a really good bet for stormcast in 3.0

[Nizrah]

2 minutes ago, DanteAlighieri said:

I wonder if Aventis Firestrike is going to get any kind of Ward, or if his main option will still be the Steel Pinions (6+ Ward) mount trait.

As a Monster/Hero/Wizard double caster/denier, he seems like a really good bet for stormcast in 3.0

afaik unique no longer can have mount trait 

[mystycalchemy]

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

- Mortal Realm: Hysh

- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line

- Triumphs:

 

Leaders

Yndrasta the Celestial Spear (300) in Warlord

 

Lord Imperatant (160) in Warlord

 

Lord-Arcanum (160) in Battle Regiment

- General

- Command Trait: Staunch Defender

- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)

- Spell: Azyrite Halo

 

Knight Vexillor with Banner of Apotheosis (125) in Battle Regiment

- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)

 

Lord-Relictor (110) in Battle Regiment

- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse

 

Battleline

10 x Vindictors (280) in Warlord

- Reinforced x 1

5 x Judicators (150) in Battle Regiment

- Skybolt Bows

- 1x Shockbolt Bows

5 x Judicators (150) in Battle Regiment

- Skybolt Bows

- 1x Shockbolt Bows

15 x Liberators (285) in Battle Regiment

- Warhammer & Shield

- Reinforced x 2

 

Units

3 x Praetors (155) in Battle Regiment

 

Endless Spells & Invocations

Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Soulsnare Shackles (65)

 

Additional Enhancements

Artefact

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 3 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 115

Thoughts on this list? Praetors bond to Yndrasta and she hangs back to throw her spear until she can get a good charge on a unit, Liberators and Vindictors hold the line with All-out Defence, new shields and Bless. Lifeswarm + Yndrasta heal helps keep them topped up. Two units of Judicators cause it gets me +1 to hit with the second Shockbolt Bow (since I can take 2 primes).

[Champasaur]

56 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

- Mortal Realm: Hysh

- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line

- Triumphs:

 

Leaders

Yndrasta the Celestial Spear (300) in Warlord

 

Lord Imperatant (160) in Warlord

 

Lord-Arcanum (160) in Battle Regiment

- General

- Command Trait: Staunch Defender

- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)

- Spell: Azyrite Halo

 

Knight Vexillor with Banner of Apotheosis (125) in Battle Regiment

- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)

 

Lord-Relictor (110) in Battle Regiment

- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse

 

Battleline

10 x Vindictors (280) in Warlord

- Reinforced x 1

5 x Judicators (150) in Battle Regiment

- Skybolt Bows

- 1x Shockbolt Bows

5 x Judicators (150) in Battle Regiment

- Skybolt Bows

- 1x Shockbolt Bows

15 x Liberators (285) in Battle Regiment

- Warhammer & Shield

- Reinforced x 2

 

Units

3 x Praetors (155) in Battle Regiment

 

Endless Spells & Invocations

Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Soulsnare Shackles (65)

 

Additional Enhancements

Artefact

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 3 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 115

Thoughts on this list? Praetors bond to Yndrasta and she hangs back to throw her spear until she can get a good charge on a unit, Liberators and Vindictors hold the line with All-out Defence, new shields and Bless. Lifeswarm + Yndrasta heal helps keep them topped up. Two units of Judicators cause it gets me +1 to hit with the second Shockbolt Bow (since I can take 2 primes).

I don’t believe that Praetors and Yndrasta can work together. Any ability that can negate a wound is called a ward. So the Praetors’ ability counts as a ward, And since Yndrasta already has a ward , you would have to choose between the two abilities since a wound can only be affected by one ward. 
 

See rule 14.3 on page 16 of the 3.0 rule book for clarification on wards.

[mystycalchemy]

13 minutes ago, Champasaur said:

I don’t believe that Praetors and Yndrasta can work together. Any ability that can negate a wound is called a ward. So the Praetors’ ability counts as a ward, And since Yndrasta already has a ward , you would have to choose between the two abilities since a wound can only be affected by one ward. 
 

See rule 14.3 on page 16 of the 3.0 rule book for clarification on wards.

You're right, but technically it's not a ward (at least that's what I'm getting from the FAQ on 14.3). So as far as I'm aware, Praetors make the bodyguard roll, if successful, they take the wound (unless given a ward save such as through the general prayer Bless). If you roll a 1-2, Yndrasta would get her ward.

The way i see it is this:

Armor save failed -> damage is allocated -> Praetor bodyguard ability -> ward saves -> wounds are applied to model(s).

 

I'd love some specific clarification on how these units interact, but even just giving Yndrasta the Praetors for ablative wounds vs shooting and she can rez 1 on each of your hero phases.

[CommissarRotke]

8 hours ago, LordPrometheus said:

I hear ya. Hopefully this changes with his new warscroll. They did change his name, too, so hopefully it's a nice buff.

what name is Celestant Prime changed to? didnt see this

[mystycalchemy]

53 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

what name is Celestant Prime changed to? didnt see this

per the points page from the Learn to Play video, he's now Celestant-Prime, Hammer of Sigmar! (which I think has always been his subtitle, but it's never been on the points page!)

[Champasaur]

4 hours ago, mystycalchemy said:

You're right, but technically it's not a ward (at least that's what I'm getting from the FAQ on 14.3). So as far as I'm aware, Praetors make the bodyguard roll, if successful, they take the wound (unless given a ward save such as through the general prayer Bless). If you roll a 1-2, Yndrasta would get her ward.

The way i see it is this:

Armor save failed -> damage is allocated -> Praetor bodyguard ability -> ward saves -> wounds are applied to model(s).

 

I'd love some specific clarification on how these units interact, but even just giving Yndrasta the Praetors for ablative wounds vs shooting and she can rez 1 on each of your hero phases.

It's moreso I was trying to say you cannot follow this series:

 

Armor save failed -> # of wounds calculated -> Yndrasta gets a ward ->Praetor bodyguard ability -> Yndrasta takes whatever damage that the Praetors do not negate or take themselves.

After the wounds have been calculated. You can either take Yndrasta's ward or the Praetors' bodyguard ability. Because both abilities allow you to roll to negate a wound, they both count as wards. Both active would essentially give Yndrasta a 3+ armor, 4+ ward, 3+ bodyguard. 

[mystycalchemy]

1 hour ago, Champasaur said:

It's moreso I was trying to say you cannot follow this series:

 

Armor save failed -> # of wounds calculated -> Yndrasta gets a ward ->Praetor bodyguard ability -> Yndrasta takes whatever damage that the Praetors do not negate or take themselves.

After the wounds have been calculated. You can either take Yndrasta's ward or the Praetors' bodyguard ability. Because both abilities allow you to roll to negate a wound, they both count as wards. Both active would essentially give Yndrasta a 3+ armor, 4+ ward, 3+ bodyguard. 

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say Yndrasta gets her ward, then makes bodyguard roll. I was mostly trying to clarify, would she roll for bodyguard, then she can roll ward on any that don't get passed? Per that FAQ it seems so, as the wording of the answer only talks about the instance in which a wound is transferred, not about if you roll for it and it fails to transfer the wound. 

So the series i'd be following (if i'm understanding the intent correctly):

Armor save failed -> wounds calculated -> Praetor Bodyguard ability -> Praetors make ward saves for whatever gets transferred to them & Yndrasta makes ward saves for whatever didn't.

Mostly because as far as I can tell, Death gets to do this with Immortis Guard or Kosargi Nightguard + Radukar. Deathless Minions is a Ward, 100%. So if the bodyguard unit gets the ward save on any that get transferred, logically, the unit that originally got hit would get the ward save on any that didn't get transferred, no?

[ThunderstruckTinCan]

8 hours ago, mystycalchemy said:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

- Mortal Realm: Hysh

- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line

- Triumphs:

 

Leaders

Yndrasta the Celestial Spear (300) in Warlord

 

Lord Imperatant (160) in Warlord

 

Lord-Arcanum (160) in Battle Regiment

- General

- Command Trait: Staunch Defender

- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)

- Spell: Azyrite Halo

 

Knight Vexillor with Banner of Apotheosis (125) in Battle Regiment

- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)

 

Lord-Relictor (110) in Battle Regiment

- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse

 

Battleline

10 x Vindictors (280) in Warlord

- Reinforced x 1

5 x Judicators (150) in Battle Regiment

- Skybolt Bows

- 1x Shockbolt Bows

5 x Judicators (150) in Battle Regiment

- Skybolt Bows

- 1x Shockbolt Bows

15 x Liberators (285) in Battle Regiment

- Warhammer & Shield

- Reinforced x 2

 

Units

3 x Praetors (155) in Battle Regiment

 

Endless Spells & Invocations

Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Soulsnare Shackles (65)

 

Additional Enhancements

Artefact

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 3 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 115

 

Looks good to me at achieving what you're aiming for (holding points and keeping units up) - my only question will be what will actually kill stuff? Not a lot in there has much firepower for clearing out a horde or a big unit that's a threat. Yndrasta may do okay, but seems a little swingy at times.

I also wonder if the Lord Imperatant is worth all that much without heavy reliance on annihilators/vindictors. Currently only your unit of 10 vindictors will benefit from the 7" drop and they probably won't do too much damage on their own. (7-8 wounds on average against a 4+ save)

I'd be tempted to try swapping out some of the battline units and Imperatant either for a greater shooting threat to trim down threats (e.g. some ballistas and an Ordinator) - or instead go for a unit of 10 evocators or a couple of annihilator units to deepstrike and keep things occupied and away from your objective holders.

 

 

[Champasaur]

1 hour ago, mystycalchemy said:

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say Yndrasta gets her ward, then makes bodyguard roll. I was mostly trying to clarify, would she roll for bodyguard, then she can roll ward on any that don't get passed? Per that FAQ it seems so, as the wording of the answer only talks about the instance in which a wound is transferred, not about if you roll for it and it fails to transfer the wound. 

So the series i'd be following (if i'm understanding the intent correctly):

Armor save failed -> wounds calculated -> Praetor Bodyguard ability -> Praetors make ward saves for whatever gets transferred to them & Yndrasta makes ward saves for whatever didn't.

Mostly because as far as I can tell, Death gets to do this with Immortis Guard or Kosargi Nightguard + Radukar. Deathless Minions is a Ward, 100%. So if the bodyguard unit gets the ward save on any that get transferred, logically, the unit that originally got hit would get the ward save on any that didn't get transferred, no?

If the Praetor's bodyguard ability allows the player to roll to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model, then it is a ward. So even if you chose to have the Praetor ability proc first before Yndrasta's ward, you could not use both wards. I think the confusion might be in that people don't realize the Praetors ability is a ward because it allows you to roll to negate a wound, regardless of the other text around it.

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, Champasaur said:

If the Praetor's bodyguard ability allows the player to roll to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model, then it is a ward. So even if you chose to have the Praetor ability proc first before Yndrasta's ward, you could not use both wards. I think the confusion might be in that people don't realize the Praetors ability is a ward because it allows you to roll to negate a wound, regardless of the other text around it.

while I lean in favour of this outcome, I'd say the confusion is warranted. The praetors came out at the same time as Yndrasta, and while the latter's ability is clearly labelled as a "ward save" in her warsroll, the former's is not.

So IMHO the first part of the question is about the interpreation of rule 14.3, notably this passage:

"Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a
wound before it is allocated to a model. Abilities of
this type are referred to as wards"

Does this mean that:

1) all abilities that fit within the criteria of the first sentence are wards

or

2) all abilities which are labelled as "wards" have the effect described in the first sentence

The second part concerns the fact that the praetors ability doesn't just "allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound" (i.e. it also has the bodyguard effect). Even if we accept interpretation 1 in the first question, does it fit within the criteria to be referred to as a "ward"?

Again, I think it probably won't stack with a ward save in the end, but this should be / have been clarified by an FAQ