AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Freejack02]

42 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

What do you guys think about the praetors ability? We talked today with our group about it and everyone’s opinion was that praetors ability is not a ward save, because it don’t says give your attached hero a 5+ ward save.

This was discussed in the AOS 3.0 rules thread in a different topic, and others came to the conclusion that it does in fact fall under the wording of a now-called Ward, which means it would not stack with current Wards (like Yndrasta). I don't like the way that "feels" counter-intuitive, but I don't know what the RAW is going to wind up being. 

 

The discussion is sprinkled in around here: 

 

[Erdemo86]

10 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

This was discussed in the AOS 3.0 rules thread in a different topic, and others came to the conclusion that it does in fact fall under the wording of a now-called Ward, which means it would not stack with current Wards (like Yndrasta). I don't like the way that "feels" counter-intuitive, but I don't know what the RAW is going to wind up being. 

 

The discussion is sprinkled in around here: 

 

Yeah I know that, looked now honest wargamer and some other YouTubers all saying that it’s not a ward save + the tournament judge. So for me/us it’s not a ward save Till faq will clear it out. I hate that everytime people try to make things that look clear more complicated.

i remember with bloodknights ability everyone saying retreat is a normal move so they can’t charge afterwards… and what is? They can! Feel in the same boot now.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Erdemo86

[Freejack02]

9 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

Yeah I know that, looked now honest wargamer and some other YouTubers all saying that it’s not a ward save + the tournament judge. So for me/us it’s not a ward save Till faq will clear it out. I hate that everytime people try to make things that look clear more complicated.

No one is trying to make it more complicated just for the fun of it - the definition of a Ward save in the new rules DOES encompass what the Praetor ability does; so it makes logical sense to interpret it that way. Like I said before, it didn't feel right to me at first, but I could see it going either way now. 

The relevant text from the Core Rules are as follows: "Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model. Abilities of this type are referred to as wards." The Praetor ability allows you to negate wounds before being allocated to a model, so it falls under the umbrella of Wards. 

Whether GW will come out and make an exception for this case is anybody's guess. 

[Erdemo86]

14 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

No one is trying to make it more complicated just for the fun of it - the definition of a Ward save in the new rules DOES encompass what the Praetor ability does; so it makes logical sense to interpret it that way. Like I said before, it didn't feel right to me at first, but I could see it going either way now. 

The relevant text from the Core Rules are as follows: "Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model. Abilities of this type are referred to as wards." The Praetor ability allows you to negate wounds before being allocated to a model, so it falls under the umbrella of Wards. 

Whether GW will come out and make an exception for this case is anybody's guess. 

Yeah but on 3 or 4 It don’t negates a wound it transfers it to a praetor. So if you used your 4+ ward save on yndresta your not allowed to transfer wounds? Show me where that’s written? Your text is right as long as you negate a wound but what’s with transferring? Do transfer is negation too?

if the ability of praetors would only have that 5+ part you could be right but not with that 3+ part. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Erdemo86

[Freejack02]

5 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

Show me where that’s written?

I literally did.

If you don't agree with it then wait for a FAQ or dev response (like everyone will have to), but don't act like people are pulling this out of nowhere... I quoted the relevant sections of the rules. 

[Erdemo86]

6 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

I literally did.

If you don't agree with it then wait for a FAQ or dev response (like everyone will have to), but don't act like people are pulling this out of nowhere... I quoted the relevant sections of the rules. 

You showed me that negation of wounds are ward saves not transferring wounds. One question, maybe you understand me better: 

if praetors ability would be that:

if the hero takes damage roll a dice 

1: you get the damage

2: heal d3

3: move 6

4: throw a mw back

5: revive some model

6: negate the wound

 

so now you used the ward save with yndresta, so you can’t roll for praetors anymore?  Because on 6 it is ward save so the whole ability is a ward save? 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Erdemo86

[Freejack02]

6 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

6: negate the wound

Yes, that would also fall under the definition of a Ward, I don't understand why you keep asking the same question over and over and expecting a different answer. Read the rules. If you disagree with them, wait for a FAQ... like I've said repeatedly. 

[CommissarRotke]

i wouldn't be surprised if this was FAQ'd to not be stackable with Wards, but IMHO right now it would since the Praetors transfer a wound on different rolls.

[PrimeElectrid]

It’s not called a Ward save, even though it functions like one, ergo the Ward save rules don’t apply. 

[Fuxxx]

2 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

It’s not called a Ward save, even though it functions like one, ergo the Ward save rules don’t apply. 

I'm not sure on this whole issue. If it doesn't stack I'm not too phased since yndrasta is very fast and I don't have to keep up then. 

But the thing that it's not called one... Neither are all of the old abilities. And strangely enough the only warscroll updates are endless spells. 

Ward saves are defined as abilities that negate wounds after giving them to a model. They probably did this because of the older warscrolls of other stuff. On the one hand I guess if this is a new rule that came out afterwards it would be called a ward if it is but on the other hand raw I think it is one as strange as this is.

[Beliman]

3 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

It’s not called a Ward save, even though it functions like one, ergo the Ward save rules don’t apply. 

The rules only tell you what is a Ward save

Quote

14.3 WARDS

Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model.

The trigger and the resolution are exactly the same as Praetor's ability. 
Note: Ward Saves seems to not follow the same steps of so called "Saves after Saves". from 2.0. 

2.0 had two diferent trigger for this kind of abilities, one for "Bodyguard" rules and the other one for "Save after Save".

• Bodyaguard rules were about: "Roll a dice before you allocate a wound or mortal wound to this model if it is within..."
• Save after save was  a bit diferent: "Roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to..."

Even if it's not a Ward save, you can't stack Yndrasta 4+ saves with Praetors bodyguard. The result will be the same.

 There is a new rule that you must chose from diferent abilities that had the same trigger (in this case, before you allocate...).

Quote

1.6.4 TRIGGERED EFFECTS
The effects of some abilities are applied when a dice roll triggers them. For example, the effect of an ability might be triggered if the unmodified hit roll for an attack is 6. A triggered effect is applied immediately after the roll that triggered it. If two or more effects are triggered by the same roll, only one of those effects can be applied. The player who made the roll must pick which effect is applied.

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Beliman

[PrimeElectrid]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

The rules only tell you what is a Ward save

The trigger and the resolution are exactly the same as Praetor's ability. 
Note: Ward Saves seems to not follow the same steps of so called "Saves after Saves". from 2.0. 

2.0 had two diferent trigger for this kind of abilities, one for "Bodyguard" rules and the other one for "Save after Save".

• Bodyaguard rules were about: "Roll a dice before you allocate a wound or mortal wound to this model if it is within..."
• Save after save was  a bit diferent: "Roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to..."

Even if it's not a Ward save, you can't stack Yndrasta 4+ saves with Praetors bodyguard. The result will be the same.

 There is a new rule that you must chose from diferent abilities that had the same trigger (in this case, before you allocate...).

 

The triggered effects rule applies to multiple effects on the *same* roll, not two rolls (bodyguard followed by ward or vice versa).

If it was meant to be a ward save, GW would have specified that it was a ward save in the wording, as they do on Yndrastas warscroll. 

[PJetski]

The problem is that Soul-forged Guardians is an ability that does two different things, one of which is a Ward save as defined by the core rules, but it does a random effect based on what you roll. Sometimes it a Ward, sometimes it is not.

This requires an answer from the rules writers, unfortunately.

[jeanfluflu]

Either way there's downsides to use praetors on Yndrasta: she's to fast to keep these arround her and she'll distance them very easily and she' kinda doesn't need them based on her profile.

I know the circular nature of these rules (Yndrasta can revive preators who can then make her ignore wounds...etc) makes this combo really shiny but i doubt she will use this at it's full potential. 

She's not as fragile as our celestant prime, the multiple save bonuses will help her against regular attacks (finest hour, all out defense...etc) and her native 4+ ward means that she would need 20MW to get killed.
she can be healed with knight vexillor or even the hero ability as well to her fullest pretty easily if enemy doesn't commit to kill her in one round.

Another way to use preators would be to protect a key low wound walking character (preferably the general to keep the command points high each round) for this optic the lord imperatant is probably the best target here.

With this in mind i would probably use Yndrasta as a threat to enemy monsters or archers and keep the praetors arround my lord imperatant to have him alive as long as possible and spam command abilities for free each turn, gain CP and guarantee to keep the fuel running into my list.

[Beliman]

45 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

The triggered effects rule applies to multiple effects on the *same* roll, not two rolls (bodyguard followed by ward or vice versa).

Nice catch! You are right here.

I still think that Praetors ability is a Ward save. I hope to see a FAQ that clears everything.

[NauticalSoup]

39 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

If it was meant to be a ward save, GW would have specified that it was a ward save in the wording, as they do on Yndrastas warscroll. 

This logic doesn't get you very far with GW games, which are riddled with the kind of oversights that create these problems. And it remains to be scene if GW's intent is to use the term 'ward' on every such save they want covered by this restriction going forward - they could reserve it exclusively for standard ones that have no extra mechanics while also expecting you to intuit that the restriction applies to any such roll, regardless of name.

My reading is that the ward rule is written as it is to grandfather in saves of that variety so you still only get one, which would also shut off the ability to take both the Praetor bodyguard roll and a ward because it's such a massive umbrella. You got a hundred different abilities that negate wounds? Nice - pick one.

I'm also pretty mistrustful of anyone who sees a clearly borked rule like this and claims that it's clear when it's obviously not and in desperate need of an FAQ. 

[CommissarRotke]

26 minutes ago, jeanfluflu said:

Another way to use preators would be to protect a key low wound walking character (preferably the general to keep the command points high each round) for this optic the lord imperatant is probably the best target here.

yeah I don't think Yndrasta should ever be the protectee, even if you use her near the Praetors to heal them. We're also most likely going to want her in the sky, so then the question is: which heroes are best starting on the board?

Imperatant seems like the first choice, maybe a second Praetor unit to bubble a wizard or priest to ensure dispells/buffs.

[PJetski]

28 minutes ago, jeanfluflu said:

Either way there's downsides to use praetors on Yndrasta: she's to fast to keep these arround her and she'll distance them very easily and she' kinda doesn't need them based on her profile.

I know the circular nature of these rules (Yndrasta can revive preators who can then make her ignore wounds...etc) makes this combo really shiny but i doubt she will use this at it's full potential. 

She's not as fragile as our celestant prime, the multiple save bonuses will help her against regular attacks (finest hour, all out defense...etc) and her native 4+ ward means that she would need 20MW to get killed.
she can be healed with knight vexillor or even the hero ability as well to her fullest pretty easily if enemy doesn't commit to kill her in one round.

Another way to use preators would be to protect a key low wound walking character (preferably the general to keep the command points high each round) for this optic the lord imperatant is probably the best target here.

With this in mind i would probably use Yndrasta as a threat to enemy monsters or archers and keep the praetors arround my lord imperatant to have him alive as long as possible and spam command abilities for free each turn, gain CP and guarantee to keep the fuel running into my list.

Yndrasta can definitely outpace Praetors but her damage isn't spectacular (12 max damage per combat phase) so I'm not sure it is worth putting her out so far forwards on her own. I think she is best utilized reviving as many models as possible per turn, so you want to keep her centered in your army. 

I think she will fit very well in a castle formation, which means you want a lot of shooting to force the enemy to come to you. Her revival mechanic will be great for weathering other shooting armies.

Her 12" flying move will allow her to break away and go for specific goals after the initial engagement.

[PrimeElectrid]

39 minutes ago, jeanfluflu said:

Either way there's downsides to use praetors on Yndrasta: she's to fast to keep these arround her and she'll distance them very easily and she' kinda doesn't need them based on her profile.

Like @PJetski said I don’t think Yndrasta shooting off like a missile is the best use of her. She has two abilities affecting allies within 12”, so I think she is best placed in the battleline, using her 12” movement to ensure that she is where she needs to be as a problem-solver. 

[CommissarRotke]

22 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Yndrasta can definitely outpace Praetors but her damage isn't spectacular (12 max damage per combat phase) so I'm not sure it is worth putting her out so far forwards on her own. I think she is best utilized reviving as many models as possible per turn, so you want to keep her centered in your army. 

I think she will fit very well in a castle formation, which means you want a lot of shooting to force the enemy to come to you. Her revival mechanic will be great for weathering other shooting armies.

Her 12" flying move will allow her to break away and go for specific goals after the initial engagement.

would you start her on the board in the castle formation or drop her down by 2nd turn?

[PJetski]

Just now, CommissarRotke said:

would you start her on the board in the castle formation or drop her down by 2nd turn?

If you deploy Yndrasta in reserves you can't use Soul-forged Guardians on her

I would definitely consider playing Stormkeeps with this kind of list

[LordPrometheus]

33 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Yndrasta can definitely outpace Praetors but her damage isn't spectacular (12 max damage per combat phase) so I'm not sure it is worth putting her out so far forwards on her own. I think she is best utilized reviving as many models as possible per turn, so you want to keep her centered in your army. 

I think she will fit very well in a castle formation, which means you want a lot of shooting to force the enemy to come to you. Her revival mechanic will be great for weathering other shooting armies.

Her 12" flying move will allow her to break away and go for specific goals after the initial engagement.

Agreed. Start her on the board and use the bodyguards ability on her. Make them come to you, then use her flying to counter charge and blow up what needs killing.

[Martijn de Bruin]

Yndrasta and msu Prosecutors might become a good fit, considering their synergies in movement and range, while also being revivable models! 😯

Here's to hoping for a proper buff to Prosecutors! 

[CommissarRotke]

23 minutes ago, Martijn de Bruin said:

Yndrasta and msu Prosecutors might become a good fit, considering their synergies in movement and range, while also being revivable models! 😯

Here's to hoping for a proper buff to Prosecutors! 

prosecutors or protectors? both would fit in different areas, not sure if you meant prosecutors to fly with her, or protectors for the -1 ranged hit.

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

If you deploy Yndrasta in reserves you can't use Soul-forged Guardians on her

I would definitely consider playing Stormkeeps with this kind of list

ah okay, was thinking you meant for not guarding Yndrasta my bad

[PJetski]

Just realized that you can't use Gav for auto-charges any more since you can only issue that command once per phase

You can still use a Vexillor to reroll charges though, so you can have a +3 reroll. If you also use an Imperatant with THUNDERSTRIKE units you can have a +3 reroll from 7".

Edited June 16, 2021 by PJetski