AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[jhamslam]

5 hours ago, jeanfluflu said:

I don't like the idea of liberators being killing machines, but i like the fantasy behind the "shield of civilisation" rule.

Ideally i'd like them to get some bonuses when they are in big numbers just like chaos warriors (20+ units ignore -1 rend for example so it does not create some really stupid line units with 1+ save stacking buffs while still retaining some durability).

Maybe they can get additionnal rules depending on the type of general leading them, they are supposed to be the spine of every stormhost and some custom rules could really help them to adapt to the flavor of each type of stormcast army:

-If a lord celestant/castellant/relictor is the general they get reroll 1's to hit.
-If a lord Arcanum is the general they get exploding hits (6's to hit deals 2 wounds.....magic thunder don't ask for more).
-If a lord aquilor is the general they get +1 to run and charge.

At 90pts for 10 wounds and a 4+ save they are pretty cheap and i like it that way, that's why minor buffs like this is a solution i'm hoping for.

As it stands we have the least allegiance abilities out of any faction. Like most actions have atleast a page or two. We have 1 ability which is replaced with another ability. Even if GW gave Stormkeeps and Scions deepstrike and the liberator thing, it STILL wouldnt be enough to make libs good.

 

Our heroes, traits, artifacts, battalions and warscrolls need a major tune up with a clear design direction in mind. We could lose a lot  of our traits and artifacts page and it wouldnt matter cus theres sooooo many useless ones that nobody ever uses

[JackStreicher]

9 hours ago, LordPrometheus said:

Clearly, that person had never played with Liberators before.

Oh I have

Does anyone have a link to the batreps in which the list failed so hard, or is it just idle talk? I am really Interested.

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Oh I have

Does anyone have a link to the batreps in which the list failed so hard, or is it just idle talk? I am really Interested.

Luckily one of the games with the patrol battalion was indeed streamed by the Honest Wargamer, so you can watch it here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Sr5NJhdJE

then here you can find the results for the tts event https://tabletop.to/hammertime-6

Adam Mumford was using the 60 liberators list and went 0-3, while two others (Daniel Laatsch and Prince of Khemri) were using Stormkeep rules but no liberators spam and went 1-2

 

 

[Nizrah]

Its crazy how in they same book they diffrently treat armies... 

[JackStreicher]

Thx @Marcvs!

[LordPrometheus]

5 hours ago, Marcvs said:

Luckily one of the games with the patrol battalion was indeed streamed by the Honest Wargamer, so you can watch it here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Sr5NJhdJE

then here you can find the results for the tts event https://tabletop.to/hammertime-6

Adam Mumford was using the 60 liberators list and went 0-3, while two others (Daniel Laatsch and Prince of Khemri) were using Stormkeep rules but no liberators spam and went 1-2

 

 

Well I wasn't expecting much from the Stormkeep rules, but this is just abyssmal. SCE still gets eaten alive by basically any other army, especially ones with newer tomes. 

"Maybe next year" is our mantra yet again...

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

So is vanguard chamber super battalion the most competitive choice for SCE so far? 

That being said, in a world where karak zilfin, ossiarchs, seraphon, tzeentch and lumineths exist I am not sure how well vanguard chamber does nowadays.

[jeremym]

11 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

So is vanguard chamber super battalion the most competitive choice for SCE so far? 

That being said, in a world where karak zilfin, ossiarchs, seraphon, tzeentch and lumineths exist I am not sure how well vanguard chamber does nowadays.

Id certainly say its our most reliable. Keep an eye out for December points change seraphon, KO and DoT. 

Fwiw, vanguard blows ossiarch out of the water, theyre so weak to shooting. Their cannons are serious, but not as series as our shooting is. And with 1 drop you can decide whether you want to deploy 40'' away from their cannons or go first and just wipe something off the board. I can speak to this specifically as I play both armies and know the strengths and weaknesses pretty well 

[Marcvs]

Just now, jeremym said:

Id certainly say its our most reliable. Keep an eye out for December points change seraphon, KO and DoT. 

Fwiw, vanguard blows ossiarch out of the water, theyre so weak to shooting. Their cannons are serious, but not as series as our shooting is. And with 1 drop you can decide whether you want to deploy 40'' away from their cannons or go first and just wipe something off the board. I can speak to this specifically as I play both armies and know the strengths and weaknesses pretty well 

As for Tzeentch, their competitive build (and the one which is dangerous for the 1-drop) is changehost + pinks and some flamers. However it's generally at least 2 drops and they have no teleport once you kill the lord of change, which is not very hard.

[jeremym]

I havent gotten many games in with anyone other than family, and since none of them own Tzeentch im wholly unfamiliar. I dont think I'd mind the pink horror spam Tzeentch as much as vanguard chamber, seeing as you can likely clear off any hero you want with some reliability. 

[jhamslam]

9 hours ago, Marcvs said:

As for Tzeentch, their competitive build (and the one which is dangerous for the 1-drop) is changehost + pinks and some flamers. However it's generally at least 2 drops and they have no teleport once you kill the lord of change, which is not very hard.

Basically why i think stormkeeps are bad. If KO 4 drop and Tzeentch One Drop armies with heavy shooting are whats popular, then nothing is better against shooting than a bunch of models the enemy cant shoot at all cus theyre in reserve. Scions is too good to not play in that regard

[AverageBoss]

With constant points deductions, due to be constantly outclassed, stormcast is looking more and more hordy and less and less elite. And that looks especially odd for an army primarily on 40mm bases. SC need a full rewrite, making them more on par with ogres and/or Custodes imo.

They need a full overhaul regardless. Many of the warscrolls have barely been touched since 0 edition, before the game even had points.

[OkayestDM]

2 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

They need a full overhaul regardless. Many of the warscrolls have barely been touched since 0 edition, before the game even had points.

Agreed, but our turn is coming. AoS's anniversary as a game is July, and Broken realms is almost certainly leading into the game's 3rd edition.  I'll be very much surprised if they don't kick off the anniversary with the new edition, a new Stormcast chamber, and a total rewrite of the battletome. 

We just need to hang on until then.

[LordPrometheus]

4 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

 SC need a full rewrite, making them more on par with ogres and/or Custodes imo.

 

THIS. I've been saying this for the past 6 months or so. Immortal demigods in suits of divine armor shouldn't have the worst battleline in the game, no mortal wound defenses, a highly rendable 4 up save, horrible melee damage,  and paper thin heroes.

Edited December 9, 2020 by LordPrometheus

[CommissarRotke]

On 12/9/2020 at 2:28 PM, OkayestDM said:

Agreed, but our turn is coming. AoS's anniversary as a game is July, and Broken realms is almost certainly leading into the game's 3rd edition.  I'll be very much surprised if they don't kick off the anniversary with the new edition, a new Stormcast chamber, and a total rewrite of the battletome. 

We just need to hang on until then.

I'd take a 3.0 battletome with mixed unit kits for Warrior and Vanguard chambers over another chamber opening TBH. Though I'm sure the next chamber they do is going to look amazing, Sacrosanct feels like a little too many details to paint for non-elite/hero units (versus Warrior and Vanguard). And with the lady liberator being the giant artwork on 2.0's rulebook? I really want more than just Angharad and Neave on the table...

Edited December 11, 2020 by CommissarRotke

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

In a small, friendly Escalation League tried double Stormkeep Battalion lists at 1.5k, 1.75k and 2k using Wardens of the Stormkeep. And Stormtower Garrison.  Went 1-2 with the only win coming at 1.75k when all my movement shenanigans paid off against Boulderhead in Total Commitment.  There I was able to use a Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger’s Ride the Winds Aetheric to steal the NE objective after my opponent had pushed forward most of their force into my Standing Fast Garrison.  Neave rode in the wake and was able to stay on NE objective while the LA rode the winds again to the SW objective, taking it away from my opponent who had moved their models off it the prior turn, scoring me again some nice bonuses.  I used the Knight-Vexillor’s teleport to reposition my defensively buffed Lord-Celestant on Dracoth  (Drakescale Armor + Drake Kin + Hammers Command Trait) for a charge to finish off the FLoSH.  When my Celestant-Prime came down in Round 3 and took back my objective  from the remnants of my opponents first surge i was able to put the game away.

Unsurprisingly other than that game the major issue was mobility.  At 1.5K I did steal my Gristelgore opponent’s objective in Battle for the Pass by teleporting my Protectors onto with the KV but they couldn’t hold it against Crypt Flayers piling in twice.  And once my opponent killed the Lord-Aquilor and Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger I just didn’t have the mobility to contest objectives outside of my territory in the later rounds.

Stand Fast, especially when in cover on terrain and/or further buffed by We Cannot Fail truly can make even an MSU of Liberators reasonably resilient.  In the 1.25k game where I ran Stormkeep but not their battalions I had a unit hold out on terrain against an offensively buffed Mawcrusha for a full turn.  The trade-off of course, above and beyond the lack of mobility, is that I felt obligated to go first every game to get the buff going.  In the final 2K game this proved very costly as it allowed my opponent to snag a bunch of VP on their first turn while I remained turtled up, as well as allowing them to pick their targets.

As I noted in my first post, playing an army largely “built” by my kids ideas on cool (i.e. I started out with a Stardrake, a Taurulon and Prime to choose from but zero battleline options...) I wasn’t exactly expecting to dominate so after filling in the pieces I figured why not the new hotness (hot mess?).  Given the list building limitations and the MONSTER meta I play in not sure how much there is to take away broadly but given the discussion of the lost mobility from dropping Scions vs the Liberator buff gained thought I’d provide my general thoughts on the experience.

[CommissarRotke]

20 hours ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Unsurprisingly other than that game the major issue was mobility.  At 1.5K I did steal my Gristelgore opponent’s objective in Battle for the Pass by teleporting my Protectors onto with the KV but they couldn’t hold it against Crypt Flayers piling in twice.  And once my opponent killed the Lord-Aquilor and Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger I just didn’t have the mobility to contest objectives outside of my territory in the later rounds.

so... the monster killing paladins got wiped by monsters :(? if they hadn't piled in twice, how do you think the fight would have ended up?

[jhamslam]

On 12/9/2020 at 3:57 PM, LordPrometheus said:

THIS. I've been saying this for the past 6 months or so. Immortal demigods in suits of divine armor shouldn't have the worst battleline in the game, no mortal wound defenses, a highly rendable 4 up save, horrible melee damage,  and paper thin heroes.

Im ok with them dying, but for 40mm bases all of em should be on 3 wounds each now and should hit like trucks. Like a unit of protectors shouldnt MAYBE take down a bloodthirster. Heroes across the range need to be bumped by 2 wounds. 

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

16 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

so... the monster killing paladins got wiped by monsters :(? if they hadn't piled in twice, how do you think the fight would have ended up?

Going back a few weeks now (play one game a week in the league) but my memory is that if they had held out one more turn it would’ve forced my opponent to attack my Stood Fast Garrison to try and take the objective in my territory.  With all the buffs I could put into that and what my opponent had left to throw at it I had decent chance of holding out for the W.  Stormkeep seems at its best when you can force your opponent to come at you and hit the units you want it to.

[Marcvs]

44 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

so... the monster killing paladins got wiped by monsters :(? if they hadn't piled in twice, how do you think the fight would have ended up?

worth noting that Crypt Flayers do not have the MONSTER keyboard so no specific bonus for Protectors (as if that would have had a big impact anyway )

Edited December 11, 2020 by Marcvs

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

11 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

worth noting that Crypt Flayers do not have the MONSTER keyboard so no specific bonus for Protectors (as if that would have a big impact anyway )

Yeah, that was why he’d sent them in instead of drawing off a Royal Terrorgheist.  
 

Also,  I’d really hoped Featherfoe Torc, forcing rerolling of 6s on his flying units (basically everything but the Archregent), would help my general more but the reality is with our low Wounds for Heroes really only takes one or two going through and they evaporate.

[CommissarRotke]

4 hours ago, Marcvs said:

worth noting that Crypt Flayers do not have the MONSTER keyboard so no specific bonus for Protectors (as if that would have had a big impact anyway )

how the hell do THESE THINGS not have the monster keyword??? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Flesh-Eater-Courts-Crypt-Flayers

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

how the hell do THESE THINGS not have the monster keyword??? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Flesh-Eater-Courts-Crypt-Flayers

The Warhammer definition of "monster" has always had as much or more to do with size than, well...monstrousness. I guess they just aren't big enough.

[Martijn de Bruin]

Quick question, about to build 6 evocators on dracolines. What is currently considered the optimal weapon choice? For both 2x3 and 1x6. I plan on running a LAoD as general with them.

[mojojojo101]

On 12/10/2020 at 4:28 PM, CommissarRotke said:

I'd take a 3.0 battletome with mixed unit kits for Warrior and Vanguard chambers over another chamber opening TBH. Though I'm sure the next chamber they do is going to look amazing, Sacrosanct feels like a little too many details to paint for non-elite/hero units (versus Warrior and Vanguard). And with the lady liberator being the giant artwork on 2.0's rulebook? I really want more than just Angharad and Neave on the table...

I know we are almost certainly going to get a new chamber because that's the reality of game based around little plastic toy soldiers but we'd gain so much from a properly written book it'd be just as good as a new chamber.

Imagine if things like Paladins, Prosecutors, Dracothian Guard, Castigators and a few of the heroes had actually interesting rules... that'd be pretty much the same amount of 'new' units we'd get from a new chamber anyway.