AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Mattrulesok]

8 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

that feels like a problem with who you're playing against, not the ability itself though. which while related, is still a separate discussion from whether an army's rules are broken af

I dont see it that way, I see the rule being fundamentally broken its just tempered by dropping liberators who aren't much good. If that battalion included other units like evocators or was given to another team that was better it could actually be unplayable. 

 

With all that said I do think this battalion has uses just not the impossible magic drop 30 libs and win strat. I like the idea of dropping 10ish libs and 9 raptors onto a key objective and using gryphhounds as a screen for them. With the raptors further up the board than normal you can pick off key pieces that wouldn't normally be in range. Than try to translocate another block of libs onto an objective. Then bring some evos from the rear with more targeted shooting on the enemy, make them pick their targets, do they clear off the objectives and take hits from shooting and any hammer units or do they remove your threats while the libs sit back and score points?

[Mark Williams]

Some of you are overestimating liberators. The game has changed quite a bit in the last few years, and high armour saves aren’t as strong as they used to be. The same units that people have to take in order to deal with other armies will also deal with the libs too. Don’t get me wrong though, it’s better than nothing.

[Juicy]

4 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

Some of you are overestimating liberators. The game has changed quite a bit in the last few years, and high armour saves aren’t as strong as they used to be. The same units that people have to take in order to deal with other armies will also deal with the libs too. Don’t get me wrong though, it’s better than nothing.

this... I get a lot of talk in my local groups about the 60 liberator bomb and i know i can do some games today to test it out. But i feel a lot of people think its really strong to put al those liberators at your front door. People think you can buff them to a 2+ or even a 1+ with staunch but never checked actual gameplay.. 

staunch is wholly within 9 inch so thats kind of out for most of the time sinds we arent doing whfb blocks anymore.
lantern is hard so i took a relictor to gamble the 3+ translocation prayer. If it works i can park 1 unit of 30 liberators in front of anything i want. I played 30 liberators before with skyborne slayers and they where good 4 years ago but these days they got deleted pretty fast in competative play. 
Lord castellant dies to 6 mortal wounds. There are a lot of people i play who can do that turn 1/2. 

What makes this good is that we can zone the board and score in the early game. This tactic ive used a lot with the skyborne slayers and it won me games against people who hardly play skyborne slayers but every player i play on a regular base just knows what to do and screens so well that my alpha wont work and then he goes around it. It never felt like auto win with skyborne slayers and i cannot immagine it feels auto win with the patrol battalion. 

What i like about it is that liberators are going to get some more games in with bigger groups then 5. 
i also think that a lot of people mistake this for the old vanguard wing and auto claim its bonkers and broken.

[jeremym]

17 minutes ago, Juicy said:

this... I get a lot of talk in my local groups about the 60 liberator bomb and i know i can do some games today to test it out. But i feel a lot of people think its really strong to put al those liberators at your front door. People think you can buff them to a 2+ or even a 1+ with staunch but never checked actual gameplay.. 

Its 120 wounds on 3+ rr1. Put that into 90% of most armies out there and youre gonna hold them in position for 3 turns. minimum. before they can start to break away and start scoring objectives. Some armies will just never be able to break through. 

[Juicy]

Just now, jeremym said:

Its 120 wounds on 3+ rr1. Put that into 90% of most armies out there and youre gonna hold them in position for 3 turns. minimum. before they can start to break away and start scoring objectives. Some armies will just never be able to break through. 

not in my local meta.. Khorne, KO, Tzeentch, Obr, Lizardmen and Mawtribes. They al got enough tricks to deal with 3+ rr 1 libbies. Like i said ive used a 30 block liberators on a 3+ rerol 1 battleshock immume many times before and these guys dont really care. 

[Fuxxx]

Can anyone explain to me the design differences between a Knight-Incantor and an Evocator? As far as I've understood it, the difference only seems to be the spirit flasks, so if I'd take the corresponding hand off one of the Soul Wars Incantor and put a blade or like the summoning hand from the non ETB kit there, there'd practically be no reason not to use her as an Evocator, right? 

I know, most opponents probably wouldn't care even if I used her as is, but I've accumulated 5 of them, some of which I'd still like to use as the hero option, so I want to establish some differences to make them recognizable. So, long story short: Is a Knight-Incantor just a more experienced Evocator with some bottles around?

[Juicy]

So ive played a game today against my regular tournament opponent. After the game we talked a lot about the patrol battalion and the current meta we fase and how this list is going to work with the 2020 senario's and secondary objectives.

Stuff is super hard to be honest. 

If you want to take the first turn you have to lower your drops. As it seems now we can do that by going double patrol battalion or the wardens battalion.
This leaves you on a 2 or 3 drop list. So that is enough to go first in most matches. You want to go first to be able to buff up your liberators.

The problem i had today is putting 30 liberators at 4 inch with astral templars and i failed the translocation prayer to teleport my lord castellant in for that extra +1 save. The result is that my 3+ reroll 1 horde of 30 liberators have to face a lot of points/stuff from the enemy and a potential double turn. I tryed to work with terrain and put 6 grandhammer in front and the horde of 30 behind it. For the other redeemer units i had 10 xbow judicators. It all barely fit into the wholly within 12 inch bubble from the lord veritant. 

Failing the translocation prayer is double trouble because now i only have 1 hero close by to auto pass battleshock. So my opponent did what any smart person would do. Focus every thing he had on forcing bravery checks on these 30 liberators. He killed my (6w)hero with some mortal wound stuff and then procied to kill a few liberators. He did with a lot of attacks manage to kill 19. And i was making pretty good save rolls but on a 3+ save rend -1/-2 is still a problem and you are going to fail some.  With battleshock i lost another 7 dudes so that is 25 down turn 1. I dont think killing 25 liberators turn 1 is a problem for most competative armies these days. We talked about it and the lantern buff would have saved a lot but then still it would save like 5 liberators. They wont going to win the game from that point. 

Another thing that is hard is the low amount of units. This is a problem with the new battleplans cause a lot of these plans have restrictions like scoring with battleline, heroes, behemoths and have a good amount of objectives on them. 4/5/6. These plans are hard when your main army is 2x30 liberators and some judicators. I feel i didnt had enough units to cover most objectives without screening thin. And for secondary objectives stuff gets harder. The list has more bad battleplans and secondy objective stuff then stuff we can easy do.

Tomorrow another game.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Astral Templars (Stormkeep)

LEADERS Lord-Celestant (100)

Lord-Castellant (120) - Artefact: Godbeast Plate

Lord-Relictor (100) - Artefact: Armor of Silvered Sigmarite - Prayer: Translocation

Lord-Veritant (110) - General - Mystic Light (Artefact): Shriving Light - Prayer: Divine Light

UNITS 30 x Liberators (480) - Warhammer & Shield - 6 x Grandhammers

10 x Judicators (280) - Boltstorm Crossbows - 2 x Thunderbolt Crossbows

20 x Liberators (360) - Warhammers - 4 x Grandhammers

6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)

BATTALIONS Wardens of the Stormkeep (140) Stormkeep Patrol (130)

 COMMAND POINTS Extra Command Point (50)   (going to lose this for the triumph next round)

2000/2000

Edit: some other stuff to think about is the amount of points i spend to do this patrol trick.

100 points wasted on a lord celestant on foot..
140 points battalion wardens of the stormkeep to lower the drops.
120 gryphounds who dont do anything but tag objectives and screen. Its usefull but there is a reason this unit doenst see play.
50 points over.



 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Juicy

[Mattrulesok]

40 minutes ago, Juicy said:

So ive played a game today against my regular tournament opponent. After the game we talked a lot about the patrol battalion and the current meta we fase and how this list is going to work with the 2020 senario's and secondary objectives.

Stuff is super hard to be honest. 

If you want to take the first turn you have to lower your drops. As it seems now we can do that by going double patrol battalion or the wardens battalion.
This leaves you on a 2 or 3 drop list. So that is enough to go first in most matches. You want to go first to be able to buff up your liberators.

The problem i had today is putting 30 liberators at 4 inch with astral templars and i failed the translocation prayer to teleport my lord castellant in for that extra +1 save. The result is that my 3+ reroll 1 horde of 30 liberators have to face a lot of points/stuff from the enemy and a potential double turn. I tryed to work with terrain and put 6 grandhammer in front and the horde of 30 behind it. For the other redeemer units i had 10 xbow judicators. It all barely fit into the wholly within 12 inch bubble from the lord veritant. 

Failing the translocation prayer is double trouble because now i only have 1 hero close by to auto pass battleshock. So my opponent did what any smart person would do. Focus every thing he had on forcing bravery checks on these 30 liberators. He killed my (6w)hero with some mortal wound stuff and then procied to kill a few liberators. He did with a lot of attacks manage to kill 19. And i was making pretty good save rolls but on a 3+ save rend -1/-2 is still a problem and you are going to fail some.  With battleshock i lost another 7 dudes so that is 25 down turn 1. I dont think killing 25 liberators turn 1 is a problem for most competative armies these days. We talked about it and the lantern buff would have saved a lot but then still it would save like 5 liberators. They wont going to win the game from that point. 

Another thing that is hard is the low amount of units. This is a problem with the new battleplans cause a lot of these plans have restrictions like scoring with battleline, heroes, behemoths and have a good amount of objectives on them. 4/5/6. These plans are hard when your main army is 2x30 liberators and some judicators. I feel i didnt had enough units to cover most objectives without screening thin. And for secondary objectives stuff gets harder. The list has more bad battleplans and secondy objective stuff then stuff we can easy do.

Tomorrow another game.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Astral Templars (Stormkeep)

LEADERS Lord-Celestant (100)

Lord-Castellant (120) - Artefact: Godbeast Plate

Lord-Relictor (100) - Artefact: Armor of Silvered Sigmarite - Prayer: Translocation

Lord-Veritant (110) - General - Mystic Light (Artefact): Shriving Light - Prayer: Divine Light

UNITS 30 x Liberators (480) - Warhammer & Shield - 6 x Grandhammers

10 x Judicators (280) - Boltstorm Crossbows - 2 x Thunderbolt Crossbows

20 x Liberators (360) - Warhammers - 4 x Grandhammers

6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)

BATTALIONS Wardens of the Stormkeep (140) Stormkeep Patrol (130)

 COMMAND POINTS Extra Command Point (50)   (going to lose this for the triumph next round)

2000/2000

Edit: some other stuff to think about is the amount of points i spend to do this patrol trick.

100 points wasted on a lord celestant on foot..
140 points battalion wardens of the stormkeep to lower the drops.
120 gryphounds who dont do anything but tag objectives and screen. Its usefull but there is a reason this unit doenst see play.
50 points over.



 

What army did your opponent play, what enemy units killed the veritsnt and libs? 

[schwabbele]

47 minutes ago, Juicy said:

Tomorrow another game.

Strange, I thought that’s an auto win ? 

thanks for the write up highly appreciated. 

[Juicy]

Allegiance: Khorne - Slaughterhost: Flayed (Host of Chaos)

LEADERS

Bloodsecrator (120) - General - Command Trait: Vessel of Butchery

Slaughterpriest (100) - Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy

Slaughterpriest (100) - Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh Bloodstoker (80)

Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (170) - Artefact: Gorecleaver

Aspiring Deathbringer (80) - Bloodaxe and Wrath Hammer - Artefact: The Slaughterhelm

UNITS

10 x Bloodreavers (70) - Meatripper Axes

10 x Bloodreavers (70) - Meatripper Axes

5 x Chaos Knights (160) - Ensorcelled Weapons

5 x Chaos Knights (160) - Cursed Lance

5 x Chaos Knights (160) - Cursed Lance

3 x Varanguard (280) - 3 x Fellspears 5 x Blood Warriors (100) - Goreaxe & Gorefist

BEHEMOTHS

Chaos Warshrine (170) - Blood Blessing: Blood Sacrifice

BATTALIONS Gore Pilgrims (140)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Bleeding Icon (40)

Not a standard list but its a list he tryes to work around the meta. Its a strong player.
1 Prayer was in range did a lot of mortals and his varanguard made a 10 inch charge around my liberators and came in the back to finish him of. Couldnt screen him well enough cause i needed to net most of his army. Sounds pretty stupid when i write it but it was hard to avoid. We talked about putting him farther away so none of the prayers would hard him turn 1. But then i couldnt deploy the liberators close enough to fight for the objective. So it was a bit of a gamble. Deployed like this i could delete his battle line units. We played Better part of valour. 

I manage to tag 1 unit of knights so they couldnt charge. 

[Nizrah]

I don't know what you guys expected X D

[Juicy]

1 minute ago, schwabbele said:

Strange, I thought that’s an auto win ? 

thanks for the write up highly appreciated. 

No worries i hope we can help one another even tho my english is a bit bad at times  

i think we can use all the imput so far

[Juicy]

2 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

I don't know what you guys expected X D

haha, i expected my opponent to leave his thirsters at home and come with something creative. He had zero knowlegde of my list before hand and thought i would come at him with skyborne slayers or a gav bomb
 

I would love for some smarter minds them me try to take this new battalion and see how it goes:D

Edited November 21, 2020 by Juicy

[jhamslam]

3 hours ago, Juicy said:

haha, i expected my opponent to leave his thirsters at home and come with something creative. He had zero knowlegde of my list before hand and thought i would come at him with skyborne slayers or a gav bomb
 

I would love for some smarter minds them me try to take this new battalion and see how it goes:D

I dont think the best use of Stormkeep Patrol is to deploy. a tar pit in their face. 

I think the best use is still as a "scions of the storm" but for better positioning for shooters / objectives.

You can mess with where/how they deploy. You can redeploy your shooters to another board edge to maybe shoot down one flank.

 

 

[schwabbele]

22 hours ago, Fuxxx said:

Is a Knight-Incantor just a more experienced Evocator with some bottles around?

Could be actually. The tome says knight incantors are lieutenants for lord arcanums. So maybe an evocator can rise and become a knight incantor. 🤷‍♂️ 

[martinwolf]

Hello! I recently played a game with Stormcast and used the Lord Castellant and his Warding Lantern ability on my own unit so they get +1 to save (rolls) and heal on a roll of 7+, so effectively they heal on a roll of 6. So far so good. I put that on a unit of Sequitors, each 2 wounds, obviously.

Here is how we played it and I'd like to know if that's correct or what your opinions is:

We rolled each save roll individually, I fail one, a Sequitor gets wounded, I fail another one, Sequitor dies, I fail another one, Sequitor gets wounded, I save one, the last wounded Sequitor heals, I fail one, he gets wounded again. And so on. 

It was a bit tedious (I also had reroll failed saves and azyrite halo on them, so a lot going on), but I think that's the correct way to do it. Otherwise you could either only heal one time at the end, IF a model is one one wound and you rolled a 6 with all the save rolls. So that seems really really bad as an ability.

Or you could roll all dice at the same time and cancel out each 6 and a failed save. But this way it's way better for the Stormcast player than rolling one after the other. Because if you roll one after the other you sometimes roll a 6, could heal, but no model is wounded.

Any thoughts?

[schwabbele]

2 hours ago, martinwolf said:

It was a bit tedious

Edit: forget my bs. 
@Marcvs has it right. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by schwabbele
Removed bs

[Marcvs]

2 hours ago, martinwolf said:

It was a bit tedious (I also had reroll failed saves and azyrite halo on them, so a lot going on), but I think that's the correct way to do it. Otherwise you could either only heal one time at the end, IF a model is one one wound and you rolled a 6 with all the save rolls. So that seems really really bad as an ability.

Or you could roll all dice at the same time and cancel out each 6 and a failed save. But this way it's way better for the Stormcast player than rolling one after the other. Because if you roll one after the other you sometimes roll a 6, could heal, but no model is wounded.

Any thoughts?

Unfortunately, wound allocation happens all together and after healing (because healing from the lantern happens when you roll saves, which is part of the attack sequence). So yes, barring a change in the rules, you can only ever heal one wound on sequitors (or other 2 wounds models) and that is only if they had a wound already allocated before the attacks.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Marcvs

[martinwolf]

@Marcvs Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. Sad, but it makes sense rules wise. At least I don't have to do the single rolls any more.  

[xking]

Who here like Sormcast lore?

[Juicy]

5 minutes ago, xking said:

Who here like Sormcast lore?

i love it. Highlights are the Hamilcar bear eater stuff

[Juicy]

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Warbringers (Stormkeep)

Leaders
Lord-Castellant (120)
- Artefact: Hammers of Aurgury
Lord-Arcanum (150)
- Scrolls of Power (Artefact): Scroll of Unravelling
- Spell: Lightning Blast
Lord-Exorcist (90)
- Spell: Celestial Blades
Knight-Incantor (120)
- Celestial Staves (Artefact): Staff of Focus
- Spell: Chain Lightning
Knight-Incantor (120)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Battlemage (110)
- General

-staunch defender
- Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Battleline
30 x Liberators (480)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 6x Grandhammers
15 x Liberators (270)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 3x Grandhammers
10 x Liberators (180)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 2x Grandhammers

Battalions
Grand Convocation (130)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Everblaze Comet (100)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 142
 

Any one tryed something like this? With the stormkeep they idea is to build walls on objectives and nuke mortals with the wizards. 
What you guys think. Burn it to the ground if you like. Im doing some random stuff here.

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Juicy said:

Any one tryed something like this? With the stormkeep they idea is to build walls on objectives and nuke mortals with the wizards. 

What you guys think. Burn it to the ground if you like. Im doing some random stuff here.

The main problem I see in running the Stormkeep without the patrol battalion or skyborne slayers is that you are stuck with liberators moving 5" and losing their bonuses if they do so. I don't think SCE magic can project sufficient power to have the enemy come at you: your opponent might just leave you sitting behind the lines of liberators and score points.

Slightly related, to further my frustration with the treatment of Broken Realms SCE stuff I just watched another episode of Warhammer Weekly saying that changes are fine cause liberators needed a boost, but the patrol battalion should only be kept in the narrative version (Ven Brecht's). Which is like: you can have better liberators, as long as they can't actually do anything in battle

Edited November 27, 2020 by Marcvs

[Grimbok]

To be fair, the patrol battalion is just bad design and liberators need a new warscroll, not a couple of pages of add on to save them. 

 

Grimbok

[Nizrah]

1 hour ago, Grimbok said:

To be fair, the patrol battalion is just bad design and liberators need a new warscroll, not a couple of pages of add on to save them. 

 

Grimbok

To be fait our entire battletome is bad design and need new warscrolls, not a couple of useless new rules in campaign book...