AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Maturin]

I have to say, I finally agree with the detractors of "all the units suffer the same MW output".
"Each" does carry the notion that you have to consider individually the unit inside the linguistic container that englobes them.
Every wouldn't carry that notion adn thus it could be argued for both cases.

I stand corrected.
 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Maturin

[Maturin]

4 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Kind off, mentioning french made me assume English is not your first language, so I decided for me bringing grammar in the equation is probably not the best. ( I know as a German speaker , native translated rules can even be more confusing when compared to the english ones ) 

but nothing against you or french people

No you were right to use grammar and not in game reasoning. As I stated in the post before this one, each does carry a certain meaning just as you said. I'm still struggling with the fact that I was probably wrong, but grammar wise your logic is correct.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Maturin

[Maturin]

Is there a unit in AOS who does damage or MW in a radius, but the same for all units ?
It would be interesting to compare wording for the sake of it.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Maturin

[LordCelestant Imperius 1st]

1 hour ago, Maturin said:

Is there a unit in AOS who does damage or MW in a radius, but the same for all units ?
It would be interesting to compare wording for the sake of it.

Lord celestant on dracoth maybe ? It says each the same way as the prime. But it is mw on a 4+. So you have to roll for each unit i guess

Edited August 3, 2020 by LordCelestant Imperius 1st

[Maturin]

26 minutes ago, LordCelestant Imperius 1st said:

Lord celestant on dracoth maybe ? It says each the same way as the prime. But it is mw on a 4+. So you have to roll for each unit i guess

This one is interesting because it actually does say :
"In your shooting phase, you can pick a point on the battlefield within 12" of this model that is visible to them. Roll a dice for each enemy unit within 2" of that point. On a 4+ that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds."

What about non stormcast units ? Are there no splash damage attacks in Aos ? I know nurgle can do that with the 6th spell but it also says just each.
Grammatically speaking Schwabelle is right. But here is a clear exemple of a warcrolls stating that a dice must be rolled for each unit.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Maturin

[Snoogens]

My vote goes for one D3 rolled, each unit takes that damage.

This is of course based on my own opinion, but because other rules specify ‘roll a dice for each terrain feature’ (Volcanic) or ’roll a dice for each enemy unit’ (Storm Breath).

Other examples would also include Lady Olynder’s Wail of the Damned. This further cements that if ‘roll a dice for each enemy unit’ isn’t mentioned, then there’s only one dice to be rolled.

 

[Maturin]

3 minutes ago, Snoogens said:

My vote goes for one D3 rolled, each unit takes that damage.

This is of course based on my own opinion, but because other rules specify ‘roll a dice for each terrain feature’ (Volcanic) or ’roll a dice for each enemy unit’ (Storm Breath).

Other examples would also include Lady Olynder’s Wail of the Damned. This further cements that if ‘roll a dice for each enemy unit’ isn’t mentioned, then there’s only one dice to be rolled.

 

Good exemple also.

[Mark Williams]

11 hours ago, Maturin said:

I understand the point you make, but your next sentence is once again, very strangely worded.

I don't have to admit to anything, I'm not a criminal and I'm not guilty of anything. You're not the supreme authority on SCE rules neither am I. I don't require anything from you, you have your opinion on the rule, I have mine. Freedom of thoughts and speech.

In the end it doesn't really matters. When we play somewhere, we have to accept how the To will interpret the rules anyway.

I do wish those rules were written in a clearer way, that would save us some time "fighting" about how to interpret them.
Have a good day.

 

Sorry, I think I'm getting old and losing my patience for internet debates. I guess that didn't come across very well. What I was trying to say is that I don't want to go back and forth on this issue for multiple posts, and that if you understand my point of view but don't agree with it, that's the best interaction that I can hope for with you. I don't want to keep debating you trying to change your mind. I just want you to see my side of things and then I want to bow out of the discussion and go do something else with my time.

[Maturin]

8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

Sorry, I think I'm getting old and losing my patience for internet debates.

Apologies accepted.

8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

I guess that didn't come across very well.

That's the problem with internet communication. Happens to me too.

8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

What I was trying to say is that I don't want to go back and forth on this issue for multiple posts, and that if you understand my point of view but don't agree with it, that's the best interaction that I can hope for with you.

Agreed. That's what I usually do IRL. I've got a very strong opinion about some stuff. when I disagree I say my piece then if people don't bring that subject again, I don't either.

8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

I just want you to see my side of things and then I want to bow out of the discussion and go do something else with my time.

I have no problem with that, when it's formulated when you just did. But sometimes it's worth debating. See, we've now established your vision of the rule is correct, grammar wise. But we've also found by looking at some other warscrolls that some units have the "Roll a dice for each unit" sentence.
Isn't it interesting!?

Have a good day mate.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Maturin

[Joseph Mackay]

“I do wish those rules were written in a clearer way, that would save us some time "fighting" about how to interpret them”

You can blame the hyper competitive win at all costs players for that

Edited August 4, 2020 by Joseph Mackay
Technical issues

[Lucur]

14 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

“I do wish those rules were written in a clearer way, that would save us some time "fighting" about how to interpret them”

You can blame the hyper competitive win at all costs players for that

Actually the hyper competitive waac players have a vested interest in precise, reliable rules writing. You can thank the "they'll play it as intended anyway" rules writers for sloppy stuff, that's not to blame on competitive play (and i am not a grand advocate of competitive warhammer in general, mind you)

[Gutlord]

My first attempt at painting a stormcast eternal. Did it for my 9 year old son who I've forced this hobby on because I need more opponents for my destruction armies 😁

Actually really enjoyed following the warhammer community tutorial and found these guys can be painted up quick and with very satisfying results.

I've bought my lad the army book and had a flick through and oh boy, you guys have a lot of options......I'm not sure where to start to get him a competitive list (Those evocators seem pretty deadly). Hes got the vandus hammerhand starter set and the sacrosanct guys you get in the main AOS set.

Any advice from you stormcast veterans is much appreciated 

[Maturin]

25 minutes ago, Gutlord said:

Any advice from you stormcast veterans is much appreciated
 

Loks like you don't need advices! Your painting is great

[Mark Williams]

Just finished a 2 day tournament with my gav bomb list. Placed 4th out of 19 players. Missed 3rd by a single auxiliary objective. Best I’ve ever done at an event so I’m stoked.

Attached photos of the event. The Tzeench army in the photos won best painted.

List:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Gotrek Gurnisson (520)
- Allies
Lord-Castellant (120)
- General
- Command Trait: We Cannot Fail  
- Artefact: God-forged Blade  
Knight-Incantor (120)
- Spell: Lightning Blast
Gavriel Sureheart (120)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (140)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows

Units
3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (170)
10 x Evocators (420)
- 10x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 96

Games summary:

Game 1 vs Nighthaunt, Starstrike

Grudge match against a close friend. Gotrek got a lucky long bomb charge and cleared out a board quarter. Not much to say except Nighthaunt was rolling very badly and failed to do damage on a lot of important charges. Major win, 2 Auxiliaries.

Game 2 vs Kharadron Overlords, Focal Points

This was the person who won the tournament. I got tabled at the top of turn 3. They just teleported around the board systematically wiping out every unit. Nothing I could do to stop it. If I knew a bit more about their army ahead of time I could have at least made it harder for them, but it was a pretty bad game. Major loss, 0 auxiliaries.

Game 3 vs Gloomspite Gitz, Total Conquest

They were running a Trogherd battalion with lots of trolls. Player was very green (pun intended :P), so they sort of spread their army a bit too thinly and weren’t in range to effectively counter assault me. The Evocators kind of ran straight through them. Major win, 2 auxiliaries.

Game 4 vs Disciples of Tzeench, The Blades edge.

 I was very afraid of this battle as this person has done very well in tournaments in the area. They were running a Changehost battalion with 9 flamers. I played very aggressively, and pressed my entire army forward, while they turtled against a bord edge. I ended up scoring a ton of points early on, and then the objectives started disappearing, so that by turn 4 there weren’t enough objectives left for them to catch back up. I actually tabled them on turn 4 which surprised me. Gotrek got into their lines and just had a field day with everything. Major win, 2 auxiliaries.

Game 5 vs Sylvaneth, Forcing the Hand.

Haven’t played Sylvaneth since the new time dropped so I wasn’t sure what to expect. They had Allarielle and 3 tree lords plus a battalion. Very slow game and we were probably going to run out of time, but by turn 4 I was so far ahead on points that I almost doubled my opponent, and we called it early. I almost got tabled, but Gotrek just ran through the center if the board destroying everything he touched. I could see where if I didn’t have him, this would have been a tough if not impossible matchup. Major win, 0 auxiliaries.

..........

Thoughts.

My army is as good as it will ever get at this point. I don’t see any changes that I could make, and I need Gotrek to compete with a Hammers of Sigmar Stormcast list. So I think 4/1 is probably the best I could ever hope for.

 I was talking with some other players about how tough the meta has gotten compared to two years ago. There are tons of armies in the tournaments now that utterly crush their opponents if they get a double turn because they deal so much damage now. My army is no different. It’s a bad idea to ever give me second turn now. It feels like with power creep in full effect that the double turn mechanic is creating way too many feel bad moments. I spoke to a lot of players throughout the tournament who all said something similar. I suspect with the way the game is going, the double turn is on borrowed time and is going to need an overhaul soon or it’s going to start driving people away.

My stormcast models feel too brittle now. I ended every game with only a few models remaining. The main reason I won was because I’ve learned to focus the objectives and suck up the losses as long as I can score another point. My evocators died instantly every game but one the moment they hit the table. 30 wounds with a 4+ save is a total joke to people now. They feel like the epitome of the phrase “glass cannon.” No one fears them any more, and except for Shootcast or Starstrike lists I don’t see a path forward for competitive Stormcast lists anymore. Trying to win in melee feels like a fool’s errand. The army has too few bodies and dies too easily. If this is the new meta going forward, I have no clue what a new book could do to give the army some new legs.

Gotrek feels like a crutch, and it makes me sad. I would have lost against two of the armies I faced if I didn’t have him, and there’s nothing in my battletome that can replace him that will do anything remotely similar. He’s literally the only thing that scares people, and the only thing that survives a round of return attacks. He’s a constant reminder to me that the game is starting to feel a bit “stupid” from where it was 3 years ago when I started. Without his ability to kill things he touches, my armies damage output would be cut by 1/3. He does _that_ much work in games. I frankly don’t see a reason that I wouldn’t include him in any alliance tournament list at this point if I were aiming to place, and that makes me feel very conflicted about the state of the game.

Still, had a great time, and got a lot of good experience!

Thanks for reading.

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Mark Williams

[Maturin]

11 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Just finished a 2 day tournament with my gav bomb list. Placed 4th out of 19 players. Missed 3rd by a single auxiliary objective. Best I’ve ever done at an event so I’m stoked.

Congrats on the results and thanks for the Battle Report.

[Maturin]

33 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Gotrek feels like a crutch, and it makes me sad. I would have lost against two of the armies I faced if I didn’t have him, and there’s nothing in my battletome that can replace him that will do anything remotely similar. He’s literally the only thing that scares people, and the only thing that survives a round of return attacks. He’s a constant reminder to me that the game is starting to feel a bit “stupid” from where it was 3 years ago when I started. Without his ability to kill things he touches, my armies damage output would be cut by 1/3. He does _that_ much work in games. I frankly don’t see a reason that I wouldn’t include him in any alliance tournament list at this point if I were aiming to place, and that makes me feel very conflicted about the state of the game.

Gotrek is what the Celestant Prime should be.

[AR605]

What do you think of the List below? It's absolutely experimental and I came up with it because the screening idea of the Aetherwings is maxed out with the Gryph-Hounds. Do they actually take objectives without their save? What if they have to contest an objective against an enemy unit? Do you have experience with this?

I feel that our normal battleline (Sequitors or Liberators) don't stand in the line of any serious damage output, so why spend any points on them? Especially in a shooting list...

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Knight-Venator (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief

5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow

6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)

3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Aetherwings (40)

6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)
6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)
6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)
6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Wounds: 165

 

[Maturin]

2 hours ago, AR605 said:

What do you think of the List below? 

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Knight-Venator (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief

5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow

6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)

3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Aetherwings (40)

6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)
6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)
6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)
6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Wounds: 165

 

Aetherwings are a MVP unit that's a given, especially when used in conjonction with Vanguard raptors. But why do you want to use Griffons? They're too expensive, don't have anything worth talking about. Why 4*5 Judicators? It doesn't feel judicious for buffing if needed. 

[AR605]

7 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Aetherwings are a MVP unit that's a given, especially when used in conjonction with Vanguard raptors. But why do you want to use Griffons? They're too expensive, don't have anything worth talking about. Why 4*5 Judicators? It doesn't feel judicious for buffing if needed. 

The idea behind it was the additional screening force / wounds (Gryph-Hounds) and damage (Judicators).

The alternative to the that is 3x 5x Judicators, 3x 3x Vanguard-Palladors and an additional Knight-Venator (1990pts, removing  4x 6x Gryph-Hounds and 1x 5x Judicators). The Palladors grab the objectives and try to do some additional damage, but they are low on numbers, which means I reliantly have to output damage through them and focusing shooting.

Is there any other hero to replace the second Knight-Venator with similar costs? My thought was eventually to swap it out for a Lord-Veritant if you're facing magic armies, or Neave Blacktalon as an additional "hero killer"...

Would that setup perform better in your opinion?

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

Never pick lord veritant if you want anti-magic ability. Knight Incantor does it better, can also cast spells, and deal mortal wounds to enemies should they approach at unawares.

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

12 hours ago, AR605 said:

What do you think of the List below? It's absolutely experimental and I came up with it because the screening idea of the Aetherwings is maxed out with the Gryph-Hounds. Do they actually take objectives without their save? What if they have to contest an objective against an enemy unit? Do you have experience with this?

I feel that our normal battleline (Sequitors or Liberators) don't stand in the line of any serious damage output, so why spend any points on them? Especially in a shooting list...

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Knight-Venator (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief

5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow

6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)

3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Aetherwings (40)
3 x Aetherwings (40)

6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)
6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)
6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)
6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Wounds: 165

 

I think your list contradicts your idea behind the lists, i.e., "I feel that our normal battleline (Sequitors or Liberators) don't stand in the line of any serious damage output, so why spend any points on them?"

And I agree with your statement. Hence why I spend minimum points on battleline units in form of 3 units of 5 liberators. The bread and butter of the SCE army in this case would be vanguard raptors and/or celestar ballistas for shooting. For close combat you have evocators and dracothian guard, although I would never ever use tempestors with their miserable rules.

Your list however spent considerable points on judicators, which firepower pales in comparison to longstrike vanguard raptors. If you want screening units in addition to aetherwings, take liberators instead of gryph hounds. Liberators are cheaper, more durable, and are battleline. I personally struggle to see the use of gryph hound units with their current rules and points cost.

You can then spend remaining points to take larger unit of vanguard raptors, close combat units to block enemy units and deal damage, and additional heroes. Knight Incantor is an excellent choice where most of the armies in AoS have magical superiority against stormcast. Knight heraldor adds mortal wounds output and improves mobility on your close combat units. Knight Azyros, while his re-roll aura has short range, would be more useful than Knight Venator in most cases.

Taking multiple heroes is important not only because they are crucial in missions where heroes have advantage in controlling objectives. Having more than one of them is crucial because once you lose that single hero in your list, you cannot use the precious command ability. And in the days where lumineth sentinels, ossiarch mortek crawlers take out 5-wound heroes with contemptuous ease, you can never rely on one hero to use command abilities.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[Nizrah]

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Knight-Azyros (100)
- Artefact: Soulthief
Lord-Relictor (100)
- General
- Command Trait: Deathly Aura
Knight-Vexillor (110)
- Pennant of the Stormbringer
- Treasured Standard (Artefact): Lichebone Standard
Lord-Exorcist (90)
- Spell: Chain Lightning

Battleline
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
20 x Judicators (560)
- Skybolt Bows
- 4x Thunderbolt Crossbows

Units
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (90)
- 1x Stormsurge Tridents
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (90)
- 1x Stormsurge Tridents
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (90)
- 1x Stormsurge Tridents
5 x Evocators (210)
- Lore of Invigoration: Terrifying Aspect
30 x Longbeards (240)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
- Allies

Battalions
Vanguard Wing (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 240 / 400
Wounds: 143


I really like this roster! What do you think guys? 

[Maturin]

1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

I really like this roster! What do you think guys? 

20 phoenix gyards instead of longbeards. Tauralon for +1 to judicators who are the main damage dearlers sicne you take Anvils.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Maturin

[Tizianolol]

How auxiliary objective works in tournament? You have decide what  aux objective you chose at the start of the tournament or at the begin of each game? @Mark Williams

[Mark Williams]

6 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

How auxiliary objective works in tournament? You have decide what  aux objective you chose at the start of the tournament or at the begin of each game? @Mark Williams

We were picking and announcing them after set up but before deciding who goes first. I’m not sure that’s the exact time but it’s what we were doing.