Nizrah Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 39 minutes ago, hughwyeth said: Absolutely this. They need to do for SCE what they did for space marines. One moment SM were terrible- weapons that were uninteresting and a troop unit that was unremarkable compared to any other troop unit. Now they're much closer to how they're portrayed in the narrative. Their weapons can be AP/Rend -2 on a standard unit! When you read about stormcast, the armous is made FROM SIGMARITE ORE HARVESTED FROM THE HEART OF THE OLD WORLD THAT FLOATS ABOVE AZYR, CRAFTED BY THE DUARDIN DEMIGODS THE SIX SMITHS. THEIR WEAPONS ARE INFUSED WITH THE ENERGIES OF ONE OF THE SENTIENT STORMS OF AZYR. Hmm, what should their stat line be? 4+ save, 2 attacks 4+/3+/rend 0/1 damage, bravery 6. These guys should be incredibly powerful. 3+ save minimum. 2 attacks, 3+/3+/rend -1/1dmg minimum, bravery 8 minimum. So much this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) One issue is that a good portion of Stormcast warscrolls were written in 0 edition, and never really updated for real. They have had points adjustments, and minor tweaks here and there, but their rules were mostly written for a completely different game. A game that had no points or structure and had a 100% narrative or open focus. Its one of the reasons the Sacrosanct warscrolls stand out so much compared to their older cousins. They were written for a far more modern game state with much more interesting rules. Many units in Legions of Nagash also suffer from this problem too. Edited July 3, 2020 by AverageBoss 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedraxis Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 I think the "hard" part in making SC stronger is the fact that their allegiance ability is a game-changer. Being able to just deploy anywhere on the map makes it so units start the battle already on objectives or in combat. I get that it's easy to forget how good this is when you are used to it, but it makes it so that they cannot be compared fairly to other slow units like Mortek Guard or Ogor Ironguts. Now surely SC could do with an update, most warscrolls are outdated and there isn't a lot of flexibility in the allegiance abilities, but I feel their design-space is limited in the fact that they have access to so many basic strengths. They need their weaknesses to keep them from being oppressive as we have seen in earlier years (hammerstrike force anyone?) That is not to say we don't have oppressive stuff right now (looking at you flamers, horrors, salamanders and Lord K) but I feel those are outliers and mistakes rather then examples of what to strive for when discussing balance. All in all Liberators getting a point drop is always good news and I hope some of the lesser used units like Hunters will get some drops aswell. Maybe drop some battalions too. But from what I've seen here and in other SC topics some people just want to be the best book out there where every unit is super strong and all possible problems are covered. You cannot expect to have the best of everything in a game where every army has clear strengths and weaknesses. And no, SC haters don't dictate GWs moves and they seem to have become the ultimate scapegoat for people to blame when discussing pretty much anything SC related. I just wish more people would look at the positive side and strengths this army has to offer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Sedraxis said: I think the "hard" part in making SC stronger is the fact that their allegiance ability is a game-changer. Being able to just deploy anywhere on the map makes it so units start the battle already on objectives or in combat. I get that it's easy to forget how good this is when you are used to it, but it makes it so that they cannot be compared fairly to other slow units like Mortek Guard or Ogor Ironguts. Now surely SC could do with an update, most warscrolls are outdated and there isn't a lot of flexibility in the allegiance abilities, but I feel their design-space is limited in the fact that they have access to so many basic strengths. They need their weaknesses to keep them from being oppressive as we have seen in earlier years (hammerstrike force anyone?) That is not to say we don't have oppressive stuff right now (looking at you flamers, horrors, salamanders and Lord K) but I feel those are outliers and mistakes rather then examples of what to strive for when discussing balance. All in all Liberators getting a point drop is always good news and I hope some of the lesser used units like Hunters will get some drops aswell. Maybe drop some battalions too. But from what I've seen here and in other SC topics some people just want to be the best book out there where every unit is super strong and all possible problems are covered. You cannot expect to have the best of everything in a game where every army has clear strengths and weaknesses. And no, SC haters don't dictate GWs moves and they seem to have become the ultimate scapegoat for people to blame when discussing pretty much anything SC related. I just wish more people would look at the positive side and strengths this army has to offer. I agree with you to some degree, but few points are wrong imho -Atm very few army dosnt have a deep strike/redeploy mechanic, and OBR compensate largely with 7" movement and AMAZING (if not the best) melee profiles -I dont want SC to be gods on earth, just the feel that they are an elite army (paladins save a 4+ with no extrasave for example PG cost 40pt less and do SO MUCH more) at the end, they are made of paper if not properly buffed and are quite pillow fisted, atm they dont absolutelly respect what they are lore wise -Some rules are really, REALLY outdated, to prove my point even more, sacrosant chamber, the newest one, is the only that can keep on shoulder to shoulder with the newest army, full buffed sequitors with the cleasing phalanx battalion are UNSTOPABLE Another thing that keeps us down is the fact that all the named character can only be used with hammers of sigmar, one of the most useless chamber Edited July 3, 2020 by Yondaime 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borsuk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 I agree with Yondaime. Od course it is tempting to be the best army, but I personally aim to be on par with newer releases. For example NH (which is not in the best spot as well) have the same deep strike like ours, but on 10+ charge automatically attacks. Retributors on paper looks good, but in reality they never was game changer for me. 1 protector can technically kill frost lord, but it's too gimmicky. SCE is cool army, with cool lore and cool models. I just like that their rules would be on par with lore, especially older, forgotten units. It's really no fun to play my vanguards or paladins against Tzeentch and be obliterated in second turn, or get stuck in fight with 20 pink horrors for whole battle. I know, I can play other army, or better list, but then what is the purpose for the most of SCE range? Don't get me wrong. I'm not ranting, I will play them no matter what. It would be nice to have some more fun. Isn't it what is all about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 15 minutes ago, Borsuk said: It would be nice to have some more fun. Isn't it what is all about? Nope, it's about you sacrificing yourself on GW's money altar 😛 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borsuk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 12 minutes ago, Maturin said: Nope, it's about you sacrificing yourself on GW's money altar 😛 Sorry, my bad. Aos setting is indeed grimdark. I guess that would be fitting terrain piece for SCE. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, Borsuk said: Sorry, my bad. Aos setting is indeed grimdark. I guess that would be fitting terrain piece for SCE. Would make a nice terrain piece indeed for Blades of Khorne! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borsuk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Maturin said: Would make a nice terrain piece indeed for Blades of Khorne! Or kharadron overlords. I feel like whole idea of creating dedicated terrain pieces, which are part of yours Allegiance ability can be summarized as money altar. No wonder that chaos destroyed old world. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schwabbele Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 @Sedraxis scions isn’t anywhere as good as you say imho. If the -1 to hit stayed till next BR i could agree. But now it is just a 27% gamble, if it goes well nice, else you get caught with your pants down if you don’t get the DT and your unit is dead. Getting on an objective mostly also only works when you start first which is also not that easy considering we usually have a lot of drops and a lot of battleplans are also not in scions favor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimbok Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 The greatest insult is prosecutors. I have 6 of these converted and painted up with shield and javelin. They look like super human spartans with wings. In combat they are 1 attack, 4+, 4+ no rend 1 dam... serious GW? And they had three attempts at the warscroll. Three! Grimbok 3 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borsuk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, Grimbok said: The greatest insult is prosecutors. I have 6 of these converted and painted up with shield and javelin. They look like super human spartans with wings. In combat they are 1 attack, 4+, 4+ no rend 1 dam... serious GW? And they had three attempts at the warscroll. Three! Grimbok Don't forget they have two wounds each and slightly worse special weapons than Liberators and paladins combined. Prosecutors are real MVP 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkayestDM Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, Grimbok said: The greatest insult is prosecutors. I have 6 of these converted and painted up with shield and javelin. They look like super human spartans with wings. In combat they are 1 attack, 4+, 4+ no rend 1 dam... serious GW? And they had three attempts at the warscroll. Three! Grimbok Prosecutors and Palladors are easily my favorite models in the game. Such good sculpts. With enough of a points decrease, Palladors would have a strong tactical use, even if they aren't the best in a fight. But nothing short of a complete overhaul will make our poor angel-spartans practical on the tabletop. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borsuk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 21 minutes ago, OkayestDM said: Prosecutors and Palladors are easily my favorite models in the game. Such good sculpts. With enough of a points decrease, Palladors would have a strong tactical use, even if they aren't the best in a fight. But nothing short of a complete overhaul will make our poor angel-spartans practical on the tabletop. Maybe if they would've cost as much as Aetherwings, they could've become great screen. Well, maybe 60 points, they have armor save after all 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 25 minutes ago, OkayestDM said: Prosecutors and Palladors are easily my favorite models in the game. Such good sculpts. With enough of a points decrease, Palladors would have a strong tactical use, even if they aren't the best in a fight. But nothing short of a complete overhaul will make our poor angel-spartans practical on the tabletop. Imho, if they are battleline, at 180pts they are fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borsuk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 18 minutes ago, Yondaime said: Imho, if they are battleline, at 180pts they are fine Yeah, please do that. Palladors could be conditional battleline with aquilor as general. I always dreamed about having big cavalry, lead by aquilor. That would be neat. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkayestDM Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Yondaime said: Imho, if they are battleline, at 180pts they are fine I assume you mean palladors, but yeah, I could get behind that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 1 minute ago, OkayestDM said: I assume you mean palladors, but yeah, I could get behind that! Yeah, i was talking about palladors A vanguard list with palladors as battleline and raptors behind to sniper would be awesome ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Borsuk said: Yeah, please do that. Palladors could be conditional battleline with aquilor as general. I always dreamed about having big cavalry, lead by aquilor. That would be neat. The Dracoth mounted one is pretty good though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, Maturin said: The Dracoth mounted one is pretty good though yes they are, but 4 model will eat 1/4 of your army, if you add a drakeswarn for support then it will become 1/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borsuk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 17 minutes ago, Maturin said: The Dracoth mounted one is pretty good though But I'd like to see viable extremis chamber list, with Drakesworn Templar, dracothian guard and celestant on dragon. Or better yet dracothian guard lead by Vandus Hammerhand. Too bad that they're so pricy (how in the world Vandus is worth 280 points?) both by terms of points and cash. It would be welcome change if two dracoths wouldn't be so expensive, but this would never happened unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 30 minutes ago, Yondaime said: yes they are, but 4 model will eat 1/4 of your army, if you add a drakeswarn for support then it will become 1/2 14 minutes ago, Borsuk said: But I'd like to see viable extremis chamber list, with Drakesworn Templar, dracothian guard and celestant on dragon. Or better yet dracothian guard lead by Vandus Hammerhand. Too bad that they're so pricy (how in the world Vandus is worth 280 points?) both by terms of points and cash. It would be welcome change if two dracoths wouldn't be so expensive, but this would never happened unfortunately. It is viable. Yes it's expensive. But you need to play your SCE like the American Army fights a war : Attack massively on one point. Submerge your opponent with everything you've got. Make that Sob regret bringing his crappy army on the table, mwahahahaha. That's how I play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borsuk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 12 minutes ago, Maturin said: It is viable. Yes it's expensive. But you need to play your SCE like the American Army fights a war : Attack massively on one point. Submerge your opponent with everything you've got. Make that Sob regret bringing his crappy army on the table, mwahahahaha. That's how I play You're my idol. Can you share some list? How many dracoths and stardrakes you own? How much kidney costs, because I feel like I need to sell one to make it possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) @Borsuk Come join the Fun side of Stormcast in the "Starcast" thread, we've got PLENTY of lists! When I played with the drake, I borrowed it to a friend. I used a combination of LCoSD, Celestant Prime and 6desolators. It was really fun and powerful. Most of the time I play around 1500/1750 though for I play in a GW. Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersCelestant-Prime (340)Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- General- Celestine Hammer- Command Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Ignax's Scales - Mount Trait: Storm-wingedLord-Castellant (120)Knight-Incantor (140)Battleline5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & ShieldUnits6 x Desolators (600)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 95 You can swap 4 fulminators instead of the desolators if you want. You can remove the Knight and take an azyros, remove the LCosD and take a Drake templar, lots of variations Edited July 3, 2020 by Maturin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borsuk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 @Maturin i was reading that thread, lot's of fun. This list doesn't look so impossible. Thanks. What are advantages of celestant on dragon vs Templar? Is the command ability worth the points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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