AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Mark Williams]

2 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

@Mark Williams Indeed, your point seems to just be you don't like how Anvilstrike plays because it encourages a kind of counterplay you find dull. Seems kind of inane, really. You could levy an identical criticism against a huge proportion of strong armies. In fact I might even say armies that allow for 'interesting' counterplay are probably in the minority, because that would point to a serious and exploitable vulnerability.

It isn’t just that the counterplay is dull, it’s that it’s extremely rare and is only available to a handful of armies. There’s a lot of armies whose entire book doesn’t really have a workaround to deal with them. And my point is that I feel this is poor game design as it takes the strategy and gameplay out of the game. It makes for bad game experiences. And on top of all of that it’s more or less one of  the FEW viable options to build a competitive list.

If GW’s eventual plan is to make all armies have unit options to potentially neutralise that sort of threat, then I think it’s fine to leave it in the book. It looks like that may be what they are doing. 
 

But as I’ve said, my hope is that the next book moves away from encouraging anvilstrike armies. I’d rather see a more balanced and varied set of options for building competitive SCE lists.

[NauticalSoup]

@Mark Williams I don't particularly care for Anvilstrike either, I just don't think it's that oppressive. We've reached a point where most books can easily produce numerous lists that can stomp Anvilstrike, which is why its tournament performance keeps getting worse.

More importantly though I would be shocked if Anvilstrike wasn't totally removed. The CA working on missile weapons never fit with the lore for the stormhost and encourages a very anomalous playstyle that I doubt GW likes seeing for SCE. Regardless of how much of a powerboost they do or don't get in a theoretical new book, it would be quite a surprise if the list archetype doesn't get deleted wholesale.

Edited March 10, 2020 by NauticalSoup

[Mark Williams]

6 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

@Mark Williams I don't particularly care for Anvilstrike either, I just don't think it's that oppressive. We've reached a point where most books can easily produce numerous lists that can stomp Anvilstrike, which is why its tournament performance keeps getting worse.

More importantly though I would be shocked if Anvilstrike wasn't totally removed. The CA working on missile weapons never fit with the lore for the stormhost and encourages a very anomalous playstyle that I doubt GW likes seeing for SCE. Regardless of how much of a powerboost they do or don't get in a theoretical new book, it would be quite a surprise if the list archetype doesn't get deleted wholesale.

Except for a few differences, I feel that we are in agreeance then, and this is all I wanted to say in the first place.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Mark Williams

[Nerdkingdan]

So reading through this, I see a lot of “they should update stormcast”, why do people think they will do it soon?   
 

There have been no rumor images, no rumblings that make that seem that it is soon.   There was an accepted expectation that stormcast would see a new chamber every 12 months, but it didn’t happen.   Not saying stormcast won’t see changes soon, just don’t see any evidence.   As a new stormcast player all I read is shelve it until the new book, If a new book is soon I should stop building.

.

[Mark Williams]

15 minutes ago, Nerdkingdan said:

So reading through this, I see a lot of “they should update stormcast”, why do people think they will do it soon?   
 

There have been no rumor images, no rumblings that make that seem that it is soon.   There was an accepted expectation that stormcast would see a new chamber every 12 months, but it didn’t happen.   Not saying stormcast won’t see changes soon, just don’t see any evidence.   As a new stormcast player all I read is shelve it until the new book, If a new book is soon I should stop building.

.

Although I don't want to sound unappreciative, in hindsight the last book was a huge letdown frankly. I spent a long time dreaming about how the next book might make my army play better, but instead we just got some new and (arguably) semi OP units that then quickly got nerfed in the next points update. The entire book needs a bit of an overhaul at this point. The units need new warscrolls, and someone really smart needs to take another look at synergies and hero roles and points values.

My biggest beef with SCE as an army right now is:

1. Our base infantry has a difficult time hold and taking objectives, because our army is primarily built around defense rather than offence. In keeping with that theme, we need  a rule similar to what space marines have, where if our core troops (redeemer units) are near an objective, they automatically have control of it until they are completely dead.

2. Our troop-based shooting units are far too expensive for what they do. Our base archery units need to be reduced in price, but our rules need to be adjusted to keep Anvilstrike from abusing said discount.

3. We need warscroll bonuses for high numbers. 10 liberators should have their saves improved by +1 (does not stack with other abilities), or something along those lines.

It wouldn't take much but just a handful of changes like the above would make the army do a lot better on average. And that is what we need - a base improvement to our army. We don't need wacky force multiplier special rules to try to compensate for our weaknesses. We just need a better base army that helps all players and not just the handful of certain stormhosts who are capitalizing on a couple decent units in the book. A lot of this could be addressed with a GHB 2020 update, without releasing an entirely new book, imo.

[PJetski]

I think 5x Salamanders is maybe the best use of 400 points in any stormcast list.

[Mark Williams]

27 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I think 5x Salamanders is maybe the best use of 400 points in any stormcast list.

Ha.... do you think these guys are going to get nerfed at some point?

[PJetski]

8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

Ha.... do you think these guys are going to get nerfed at some point?

Maybe? Their primary limitation is only having a 12" range and without Seraphon allegiance they're not going to shoot on the first turn.

I could see them raising the point cost of Salamanders to 100, but that could also just be a knee ****** reaction to first impressions.

[CommissarRotke]

Definitely interested to what would be some good ally picks from Seraphon and (soon to be) Lumineth

[LordPrometheus]

10 hours ago, PJetski said:

I think 5x Salamanders is maybe the best use of 400 points in any stormcast list.

That's.... really sad. When your best unit is an ally, you know your tome sucks.

[PJetski]

Any of the Seraphon models that generate command points (Slann, Kroak, Starpriest, Starseer) seem pretty useful... or they would be, if we had any command abilities worth spamming.

I actually like the idea of bring a Slann. For 260 you get a 3 spell wizard with +1 to cast/unbind/dispel, global unbind/dispel, 0-2 command points per turn, and a global damage spell. He can't cast the Everblaze Comet, but he can more reliably put out other key endless spells like Geminids, and he is great for Realm Spells.

Maybe slot him into a list with a Stardrake? Stardrake offers another +1 to cast and -1 to enemy wizards to allow for easier unbinding. Comet's Call has good synergy with the Stardrakes Rain of Stars, starting to deal significant damage to specific enemy units anywhere on the table.

Adding a Starpriest for vassal casting seems pretty good to keep our Slann safe. Alternatively, 5 Saurus Guard for ablative wounds and some more bodies.

Toss in some Endless Spells and Dracolines/Dracoths to round out the list... Definitely starting to see some potential here.

Is there even a Stormcast allegiance army with a Stardrake worth running? Staunch Defender seems like the only thing worth taking, but we could make this GA:Order and toss in a bunch of Salamanders to back up the Dracoths.

[Marcvs]

16 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Maybe slot him into a list with a Stardrake? Stardrake offers another +1 to cast and -1 to enemy wizards to allow for easier unbinding. Comet's Call has good synergy with the Stardrakes Rain of Stars, starting to deal significant damage to specific enemy units anywhere on the table.

[...]

Is there even a Stormcast allegiance army with a Stardrake worth running? Staunch Defender seems like the only thing worth taking, but we could make this GA:Order and toss in a bunch of Salamanders to back up the Dracoths.

you should come take a look in the Starcast thread!

[CommissarRotke]

Is a Bastiladon helpful in our shooting lists? I'm guessing our CA won't affect them, and the Slann/starpriest can't take their own CA

[Turragor]

41 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Any of the Seraphon models that generate command points (Slann, Kroak, Starpriest, Starseer) seem pretty useful... or they would be, if we had any command abilities worth spamming.

I actually like the idea of bring a Slann. For 260 you get a 3 spell wizard with +1 to cast/unbind/dispel, global unbind/dispel, 0-2 command points per turn, and a global damage spell. He can't cast the Everblaze Comet, but he can more reliably put out other key endless spells like Geminids, and he is great for Realm Spells.

Maybe slot him into a list with a Stardrake? Stardrake offers another +1 to cast and -1 to enemy wizards to allow for easier unbinding. Comet's Call has good synergy with the Stardrakes Rain of Stars, starting to deal significant damage to specific enemy units anywhere on the table.

Adding a Starpriest for vassal casting seems pretty good to keep our Slann safe. Alternatively, 5 Saurus Guard for ablative wounds and some more bodies.

Toss in some Endless Spells and Dracolines/Dracoths to round out the list... Definitely starting to see some potential here.

Is there even a Stormcast allegiance army with a Stardrake worth running? Staunch Defender seems like the only thing worth taking, but we could make this GA:Order and toss in a bunch of Salamanders to back up the Dracoths.

Staunch tops them all. Once you add in a drake and Castellant with a slann (I like kroak for his other spam spell) you would be further rewarded for going more towards the starcast build philosophy.

but given I'm biased I'd suggest that ppl experiment with a bunch of stuff. We've really not much else to do prior to a tome update. 

I think my double drake starcast list with prime out kroak in could be very bad news for some armies 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Turragor

[PJetski]

Lord-Arcanum has a very interesting command ability to move an endless spell an extra D6" (until the end of the round not the turn, and it stacks!) but we never had enough command points to make it worthwhile.

But with Slann/Kroak generating command points and more reliably casting Endless Spells? Hmm...

Edited March 10, 2020 by PJetski

[Marcvs]

50 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Lord-Arcanum has a very interesting command ability to move an endless spell an extra D6" (until the end of the round not the turn, and it stacks!) but we never had enough command points to make it worthwhile.

But with Slann/Kroak generating command points and more reliably casting Endless Spells? Hmm...

Had the same thought, but then it feels like a waste to spend 20points to "upgrade" the incantor to the LAoF when I don't want him as general (I run a Stardrake and want staunch on him) and really really love that autounbind.

Then again, the LAoF has cool abilities and I have 30 poitns laying around...  do you think he's worth considering without profiitng from the sequitors batteleline?

[PJetski]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

Had the same thought, but then it feels like a waste to spend 20points to "upgrade" the incantor to the LAoF when I don't want him as general (I run a Stardrake and want staunch on him) and really really love that autounbind.

Then again, the LAoF has cool abilities and I have 30 poitns laying around...  do you think he's worth considering without profiitng from the sequitors batteleline?

Yes, sequitors are never worth using

[Kelsicle]

9 hours ago, PJetski said:

Yes, sequitors are never worth using

I’m a big fan of the models, unfortunately the points increase made them a little uneconomical, especially with the Arcanum tax.

[Sleepa]

15 hours ago, PJetski said:

Yes, sequitors are never worth using

Is this really the state of SC in the competitive meta? I love Sequitors, and really hate to go back to Libs after seeing how much more hitting power and durability they get for the 30 points(was 20 when I first tried them, and granted; even that felt pretty expensive). Is it just because 5-model SC battleline units get instantly erased by every serious competitive hammer? Strictly a matter of points-per-wound economy?

[PJetski]

3 minutes ago, Sleepa said:

Is this really the state of SC in the competitive meta? I love Sequitors, and really hate to go back to Libs after seeing how much more hitting power and durability they get for the 30 points(was 20 when I first tried them, and granted; even that felt pretty expensive). Is it just because 5-model SC battleline units get instantly erased by every serious competitive hammer? Strictly a matter of points-per-wound economy?

I love the models but I would never use them unless they cost exactly as much as Liberators. Maybe if they were 10 points more and didnt require an Arcanum to be battleline... but I would probably just take an Endless Spell instead.

The purpose of Liberators and Sequitors is to screen, and spending more points without gaining more bodies or wounds just doesn't make sense for a screening unit.

Edited March 11, 2020 by PJetski

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

At least giving SCE dracothian guard as battleline would improve the sorry state of the army. Make them conditional battleline unit if Lord-Celestant on Stardrake or Dracoth is the general. That can also give value to a hero that is almost always never taken.

Although I must say even this is a humble suggestion, seeing how several armies get cavalry or even behemoths as unconditional battleline. Flesh Eater Court, new Seraphon, Cities of Sigmar, Beastclaw Raiders, Orruk Warclans, Idoneth Deepkin, etc.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[Sleepa]

28 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The purpose of Liberators and Sequitors is to screen, and spending more points without gaining more bodies or wounds just doesn't make sense for a screening unit.

What if they errata their channeling ability to let them reroll all saves? surely being able to reroll everything would increase their durability, and in turn their viability? Or when you say "screen", do you mean their job is to simply take up space between the enemy and your key units, and everything else on their warscroll is irrelevant?

[PJetski]

15 minutes ago, Sleepa said:

What if they errata their channeling ability to let them reroll all saves? surely being able to reroll everything would increase their durability, and in turn their viability? Or when you say "screen", do you mean their job is to simply take up space between the enemy and your key units, and everything else on their warscroll is irrelevant?

Channeling does let them reroll saves, though?

Yes a screen is a unit taking up space between your important units and the enemy.

The purpose of a screen is to be either so tough it can repel enemy attacks or be a cheap throwaway unit that is meant to die and hold people up for one turn. Libs and Seqs are not durable enough to stop any serious amount of damage. It doesn't matter if it's 20 damage overkill or 30 damage overkill, the unit still dies either way, so spending points to improve their damage doesn't make sense.

[Sleepa]

15 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Channeling does let them reroll saves, though?
The purpose of a screen is to be either so tough it can repel enemy attacks or be a cheap throwaway unit that is meant to die and hold people up for one turn. Libs and Seqs are not durable enough to stop any serious amount of damage. It doesn't matter if it's 20 damage overkill or 30 damage overkill, the unit still dies either way, so spending points to improve their damage doesn't make sense.

Oh sorry, I meant errata to fix the wording of "reroll failed saves" which currently doesn't let them reroll 4's when the incoming damage has rend.

Don't Stormcast need even their screens to kind of carry their weight though? Something needs to hold objectives, and the army already starts at such a model-count deficit. My rationale is that a slightly higher investment could potentially be worth it if it means the unit can survive one additional round scoring an objective.

Or is that just inherently flawed logic, since most objective scenarios only carry about model count in proximity, and SC can almost never stop even a 10-strong unit of filler from taking objectives from them?

Do we (SC players) literally have to try to table or cripple our opponents in our current state right now? is objective play just not a practical strategy for our army?

[Naem]

2 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

At least giving SCE dracothian guard as battleline would improve the sorry state of the army. Make them conditional battleline unit if Lord-Celestant on Stardrake or Dracoth is the general. That can also give value to a hero that is almost always never taken.

Although I must say even this is a humble suggestion, seeing how several armies get cavalry or even behemoths as unconditional battleline. Flesh Eater Court, new Seraphon, Cities of Sigmar, Beastclaw Raiders, Orruk Warclans, Idoneth Deepkin, etc.

Also I think the problem of SCE is not that they have no battleline cavalry but rather the cost of cavalry as well as the battle line units. They just don't do enough for their price.