AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

10 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

While I agree that stormcast is in a bad place, anything that shuts down or counters anvilstrike is a good thing imo. The anvilstrike’s core strategy involves essentially removing any interactive play from opponents and creating an experience where your opponent just systematically removes their units one by one with very little engagement. I sincerely believe GW can’t be happy with that sort of gameplay persisting indefinitely in the game, and remaining a dominant strategy of sce armies. I don’t see anvilstrike living past the next book in its current form personally. I realise this post is going to get downvoted, but I seriously think anvilstrike lists are boring and one note for both you and your opponents, and bad for the game and the army. 

I am afraid I do not follow you. 

There are plenty of counterplay against Anvilstrike lists. Don't deploy valuable units within 24" of longstrikes so that their double shoot command ability cannot be used on crucial units.

Put the heroes within 3" of friendly units. Or even better, deploy terrain peaces cleverly and hide your important heroes for buffs. 

Use numerical superiority to flood the SCE, which most of the factions can easily do. Aetherwings can be disposed of with even minimum shooting and magic. Or use double move abilities like Bladeds of Khorne and Orruk Warclans.

And surprise! You can actually beat the dreaded anvilstrike by using your own shooting! Raptors are surprisingly fragile for their points. OBR catapults, skaven artillery of any kind, CoS crossbowmen/handgunners/hurricanum, bonesplitterz, bastiladons/stegadons, etc.

The list goes on and on. And most of aforementioned factions actually have enough number of wounds to weather SCE shooting and counterattack with their own shooting. Running an Anvilstrike means bearing all these counterplay in mind, and that is far from "non-interactive" and effortless point and click play.

And if someone still firmly believes that Anvilstrikes are too strong, they need to remember how much a big unit of raptors cost: 510pts for 18 wounds 4+ save unit with 9 models. That is over a quarter of an entire army. Of course they should be powerful when used correctly.

Or are these people implying that SCE unit should never be powerful no matter how expensive and fragile that would be? Then my only answer is: Git Gud.

[The World Tree]

13 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

While I agree that stormcast is in a bad place, anything that shuts down or counters anvilstrike is a good thing imo. The anvilstrike’s core strategy involves essentially removing any interactive play from opponents and creating an experience where your opponent just systematically removes their units one by one with very little engagement. I sincerely believe GW can’t be happy with that sort of gameplay persisting indefinitely in the game, and remaining a dominant strategy of sce armies. I don’t see anvilstrike living past the next book in its current form personally. I realise this post is going to get downvoted, but I seriously think anvilstrike lists are boring and one note for both you and your opponents, and bad for the game and the army. 

I agree, to an extent. However Seraphon will now be able to do a lot of ranged mortal wound shooting. A lot. They will likely do what anvilstrike does, better.

[Mark Williams]

5 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

I am afraid I do not follow you. 

There are plenty of counterplay against Anvilstrike lists. Don't deploy valuable units within 24" of longstrikes so that their double shoot command ability cannot be used on crucial units.

Put the heroes within 3" of friendly units. Or even better, deploy terrain peaces cleverly and hide your important heroes for buffs. 

Use numerical superiority to flood the SCE, which most of the factions can easily do. Aetherwings can be disposed of with even minimum shooting and magic. Or use double move abilities like Bladeds of Khorne and Orruk Warclans.

And surprise! You can actually beat the dreaded anvilstrike by using your own shooting! Raptors are surprisingly fragile for their points. OBR catapults, skaven artillery of any kind, CoS crossbowmen/handgunners/hurricanum, bonesplitterz, bastiladons/stegadons, etc.

The list goes on and on. And most of aforementioned factions actually have enough number of wounds to weather SCE shooting and counterattack with their own shooting. Running an Anvilstrike means bearing all these counterplay in mind, and that is far from "non-interactive" and effortless point and click play.

And if someone still firmly believes that Anvilstrikes are too strong, they need to remember how much a big unit of raptors cost: 510pts for 18 wounds 4+ save unit with 9 models. That is over a quarter of an entire army. Of course they should be powerful when used correctly.

Or are these people implying that SCE unit should never be powerful no matter how expensive and fragile that would be? Then my only answer is: Git Gud.

Hiding is not a counter play. You cannot win by refusing to play. Every mission is an automatic loss if you run away. There are very few armies that can deploy outside of range of the raptors, and then generate a counter play within the span of a single turn. But I will of course admit there are always occasional exceptions.

 I concede that terrain could theoretically be used as a counter play, except that every tournament that I’ve been to for the past 3 years doesn’t have such mythical terrain, and it’s been preset before the game starts in any case. The best I’ve ever seen is maybe a fairly large tower in the center of the board, but realistically you would need several buildings in a central position on the table for that to be a viable discussion point. In short I don’t really even recognize this as a valid point.

As to the remainder of your points, you’re just pointing out examples where anvilstrike doesn’t automatically win, therefore there’s no problem. However, by that logic, any army that doesn’t have basically a 90% win rate can never, ever be criticized. Which imo is clearly a logical fallacy, because it’s a preamble to just shutting any discussion down whatsoever.

Anyway, my issue with anvilstrike has nothing to do with it’s win rate, it’s how it plays. It seeks to create “no win” scenarios as efficiently as possible, with virtually no room to let the dice decide. It creates an unfun atmosphere where people walk away with poor experiences and bad impressions of the army. I am not saying that other armies do not also do this, I’m just saying that the existence of other “bad” armies doesn’t magically make it okay. Also, I’m not saying GW agrees with me, as it seems every new army that comes out just ramps up the power creep.

But, as I said, I don’t think this sort of design is good for us, and I HOPE that GW will make a better book when we get a new one, instead of doubling down on poor design choices.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Mark Williams

[schwabbele]

3 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

You cannot win by refusing to play

He didn't write that.  Smart deployment != refusing to play.

[PJetski]

I'm loving the new Seraphon battletome so far, but like every new battletome it reminds me of the sad state of the outdated Stormcast book 

[CommissarRotke]

39 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I'm loving the new Seraphon battletome so far, but like every new battletome it reminds me of the sad state of the outdated Stormcast book 

It gives me an itch to go back to my Lizardmen, but I think I really just want a Bastilodon... The more important sculpts (skinks, saurus) are the same as when I got into WFB back in high school, and about half their heroes are unfortunately ugly. Always enjoyed the lore though.

edit: forgot that the cav, flyers, and some monsters are now plastic. hunting packs when 😢

Edited March 9, 2020 by CommissarRotke

[Lucur]

Considering everyone has had their turn with army books now, i'd assume updates for older books starting this summer. We have the current preorders and new High Elves to get through spring, i doubt they'll release yet another new army in the same time span. Expect some more 40 k love in between and then we should see our next chamber open. God i hope they just rewrite our book and give us a terrain piece, we have enough models really. I just don't believe it...

[schwabbele]

2 hours ago, Lucur said:

God i hope they just rewrite our book and give us a terrain piece

100% agree. No new models, enough to choose from already.

[CommissarRotke]

While I'd love to see what another chamber would bring (or even getting mixed units for older kits), there's too many other armies that need model/sculpt updates, and better rules for our older models would be miles* better than Sigmar Opens Another Chamber

*what equivalent phrase do you metric folks use?

[Bozly]

2 hours ago, Lucur said:God i hope they just rewrite our book and give us a terrain piece, we have enough models really.

This one i’ll actually disagree with. Personally i dislike terrain pieces and find them annoying and it really isnt the issue plagueing stormcast. 
 

the issue we have is the inability To field 3 threats on the table and have the points for units to hold objectives.

 

to loosely quote vince here, terrain pieces are like getting a giftcard. Would you rather have the money in cash or in a giftcard to any store of your choosing?

 

terrain pieces give you this one bland bonus while youre near it. It’d be nice if the whole army just had it. Some are more egregious than others but i’d rather they give us bonuses and just throw it into the book. Because if we were to get a terrain piece we have to give up something. What would you be willing to give up in this book to move it to a terrain piece?

[Maturin]

2 minutes ago, Bozly said:

It’d be nice if the whole army just had it.

This.

[Lucur]

Oh i totally don't look forward to getting a terrain piece. I just can't imagine they wouldn't at some point release one for us, too. I like most terain piece models, they could make a nice collection to get stuff on the board, but ruleswise i'm not ever a fan of mandatory have to brings.

[jhamslam]

3 hours ago, PJetski said:

I'm loving the new Seraphon battletome so far, but like every new battletome it reminds me of the sad state of the outdated Stormcast book 

I cant get over the derpy sculpts and resin range. Id have bought into this army a long time ago. Our time will come.

 

Also as a side note, gonna go ahead and try Kroak In AnvilStrike. 4 Unbinds, 4 casts, d3 comet, might end up being good

[Mark Williams]

7 hours ago, schwabbele said:

He didn't write that.  Smart deployment != refusing to play.

Deploying outside of range of the raptors and then trying to create a situation where you can approach objectives and remain 24" away for the remainder of the game doesn't work. In affect, not engaging the raptors at their range is planning to just not attempt to win - ie refusing to play. Telling people, "Hey if you don't want to get shot just stay out of their range." is like telling someone, "Hey if you don't want to get wet just don't walk in the rain."  It's fine advice until you have to actually go somewhere, then it's just nonsensical.

[schwabbele]

7 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Deploying outside of range of the raptors and then trying to create a situation where you can approach objectives and remain 24" away for the remainder of the game doesn't work. In affect, not engaging the raptors at their range is planning to just not attempt to win - ie refusing to play. Telling people, "Hey if you don't want to get shot just stay out of their range." is like telling someone, "Hey if you don't want to get wet just don't walk in the rain."  It's fine advice until you have to actually go somewhere, then it's just nonsensical.

 

You make so many wrong assumptions here, it is kinda obvious that you just try to justify your line of thinking . /done

[firtahl]

So on the bright side, we can now ally in Lord Kroak for 3 rolls giving a command points for each +4. That will make a big difference for me since I always feel starved for command points (even without playing shootcast). On top of that, he casts 4 spells and puts out the mortal W's, especially if you can get him close to the front lines. That plus his +4 FNP means he can be up close without getting auto killed. Something to tide SC over while we wait for a more modern set of WS's.

Even if Kroak isnt your jam, we can still take 4-5 units of slamanders which are out of control for sure. Id wait on that till after the faq, i cant image they survive as-is with that point cost.

[Mark Williams]

55 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

 

You make so many wrong assumptions here, it is kinda obvious that you just try to justify your line of thinking . /done

If I was so wrong, Anvilstrike wouldn't be the best list going for SCE right now in the first place. There's a reason it's doing so well. The entire gameplay for opponents is trying to find a way to approach areas of the board where they won't get shot off in a single turn. You can only do that by either staying out of their range, staying out of their LOS while still grabbing an objective that is often in a central location, having so many bodies or resilience that you can weather their shooting, or killing them. Staying out of their range and staying out of LOS for the entire game is an automatic loss, so your only option is to either have enough bodies/toughness to withstand the damage for a few turns or having something in your list that can take them out reliably and fairly quickly (ie shoot them from out of their range or be able to cross the board and weave through any blockers and assault them and kill them in one turn). Very few armies can do this, and for all other's it's basically just a dull game experience. You put models down, you take models off, pack up and go home.  I'm definitely not the only person who understands this. I've talked to way too many people who have expressed the same opinion to be accused of just making it all up.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Mark Williams

[Mark Williams]

45 minutes ago, firtahl said:

So on the bright side, we can now ally in Lord Kroak for 3 rolls giving a command points for each +4. That will make a big difference for me since I always feel starved for command points (even without playing shootcast). On top of that, he casts 4 spells and puts out the mortal W's, especially if you can get him close to the front lines. That plus his +4 FNP means he can be up close without getting auto killed. Something to tide SC over while we wait for a more modern set of WS's.

Even if Kroak isnt your jam, we can still take 4-5 units of slamanders which are out of control for sure. Id wait on that till after the faq, i cant image they survive as-is with that point cost.

Do we know how much he will cost yet?

[jhamslam]

16 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Do we know how much he will cost yet?

320. i think its either 270  or 260 for a regular slann(which isnt bad)  Perfect for allying in. Im thinking about taking out the 2 incantors. Losing the auto unbind is rough, but honestly aside from maybe umbral spellportal, WLV isnt as popular and FEC is just getting hammered by everything else. 

Alternatively, taking out 1 incantor, azyros (since slann give you cp to use to re roll 1s) , and geminids should be enough for a Slann build

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by jhamslam

[NauticalSoup]

@Mark Williams Pretty sure it's only doing well if you compare it to other SCE lists which are mostly ineffective garbage.

Anvilstrike isn't podium material anymore, not by a long-shot.

[Mark Williams]

15 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

@Mark Williams Pretty sure it's only doing well if you compare it to other SCE lists which are mostly ineffective garbage.

Anvilstrike isn't podium material anymore, not by a long-shot.

The ability to podium isn’t the point.

[AdamR]

2 hours ago, jhamslam said:

320. i think its either 270  or 260 for a regular slann(which isnt bad)  Perfect for allying in. Im thinking about taking out the 2 incantors. Losing the auto unbind is rough, but honestly aside from maybe umbral spellportal, WLV isnt as popular and FEC is just getting hammered by everything else. 

Alternatively, taking out 1 incantor, azyros (since slann give you cp to use to re roll 1s) , and geminids should be enough for a Slann build

 

WLV?

[jhamslam]

2 minutes ago, AdamR said:

WLV?

Warp lightning vortex, the skaven f*** you spell

[NauticalSoup]

@Mark Williams Indeed, your point seems to just be you don't like how Anvilstrike plays because it encourages a kind of counterplay you find dull. Seems kind of inane, really. You could levy an identical criticism against a huge proportion of strong armies. In fact I might even say armies that allow for 'interesting' counterplay are probably in the minority, because that would point to a serious and exploitable vulnerability.

[AdamR]

1 minute ago, jhamslam said:

Warp lightning vortex, the skaven f*** you spell

I getcha!

I've actually been on the receiving end of that at a GT when they first came out, I just didn't recognize the acronym.