AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[schwabbele]

5 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

However, I do not think his record alone shows that the Stormcast is in a finely balanced state internally and externally. So far Stormcast has been showing low performance at least since the launch of 2019 handbook as can be inducted from winrates compiled by HonestWargamer.

No worries I will continue the low performance in Prague GT in 3 weeks

[Bozly]

On 2/3/2020 at 10:04 PM, jhamslam said:

what i really dislike about the game rn is that it doesnt matter how good your melee is. Sequitors, Boar Boyz, Evocators on dracs, it doesnt matter.

 Us and a lot of other factions have dudes that hit well, but if youre going up against a faction that can fight first and or fight twice its an auto loss. Like how are you supposed to go up against 20 HB fight first and fight twice, or triple keeper? then also deal with the rest of their army and other summonable units?

They really screwed the pooch with this design

So there are ways around it i regularly beat slaanesh even as stormcast. Can you show a picture to how you deploy and how you play your first turn? 
 

table set up, game type, and how you layer really matter with this.
 

deployment is 90% of the game. There are pretty decent ways to beat this. 
 

we can be negative all we want and if you really dislike it you dont have to be negative here there are plenty of other great games or you can find a different army. I love the community around the game and have spent a long time helping to build it at my store. I think the game is in the best position its ever been but do agree there is power creep. But we have always figured out how to play around it. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Bozly

[jhamslam]

7 hours ago, Bozly said:

So there are ways around it i regularly beat slaanesh even as stormcast. Can you show a picture to how you deploy and how you play your first turn? 
 

table set up, game type, and how you layer really matter with this.
 

deployment is 90% of the game. There are pretty decent ways to beat this. 
 

we can be negative all we want and if you really dislike it you dont have to be negative here there are plenty of other great games or you can find a different army. I love the community around the game and have spent a long time helping to build it at my store. I think the game is in the best position its ever been but do agree there is power creep. But we have always figured out how to play around it. 

Im not saying you cant beat slaanesh. im saying MELEE core armies, which was the argument i was making, in SCE or other factions, have no hope going up against slaanesh unless they can fight somewhat normally. Ive beaten slaanesh in local tournaments, not a sysselke host, sure and it was pre nerf but its always been with anvilstrike.

You can try and play objectives but thanks to their chain summoning it doesnt take long for them to just outnumber you on them or just wear you down with attrition.

A melee core has virtually no chance thanks to the fact that your movement phase and hence getting the initiative  on the opponent has no meaning. Movement is an incredibly important part of the game and its what allows you to get a leg up on your opponents best units. Slaanesh just says '****** that' with a 6 inch aura dice roll of 3+. and the KoS is no slouch in combat, it deals an incredible amount of damage for the 340 points, generating even more depravity

I literally saw Slaanesh being beaten soundly by a skaven army that was 6 stormfiends and the rest melee. only he had a keeper in the corner, so he summoned a hero, that hero then summoned again, and then THAT hero summoned again all along an objective line, pulling all objectives and winning the game. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by jhamslam

[NauticalSoup]

16 minutes ago, Bozly said:

we can be negative all we want and if you really dislike it you dont have to be negative here there are plenty of other great games or you can find a different army. 

Honestly, suggesting somebody 'go play a different game' is perhaps the single least effective way to curb negativity on a subject.

There are real problems with SCE. Letting people vent about them isn't a bad thing. Someday, perhaps things will be good and we can talk about that. But that day isn't today.

[Maturin]

3 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

Honestly, suggesting somebody 'go play a different game' is perhaps the single least effective way to curb negativity on a subject.

There are real problems with SCE. Letting people vent about them isn't a bad thing. Someday, perhaps things will be good and we can talk about that. But that day isn't today.

Hagrid

[CommissarRotke]

Both SCE and NH need new books, they have fallen behind as AOS 2.0 has been fleshed out. I think DOK have an older book, but they've been doing quite well through 2.0 from what I've read., while the two armies to most likely bring new people into the game are lukewarm. Not only is that bad for repeat customers, but it's bad to advertise to new ones. I don't think anyone here wants an OP book, and I don't think we expect every single unit to be viable in any build, but I don't think it's asking too much to put what are supposed to be literal demigod soldiers at a level where they feel that way on the tabletop.

[NauticalSoup]

1 hour ago, Maturin said:

Hagrid

...Hagrid? Was I quoting Hagrid? I'm not a Harry Potter guy so if I was it was entirely coincidental haha.

9 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Both SCE and NH need new books, they have fallen behind as AOS 2.0 has been fleshed out. I think DOK have an older book, but they've been doing quite well through 2.0 from what I've read., while the two armies to most likely bring new people into the game are lukewarm. Not only is that bad for repeat customers, but it's bad to advertise to new ones. I don't think anyone here wants an OP book, and I don't think we expect every single unit to be viable in any build, but I don't think it's asking too much to put what are supposed to be literal demigod soldiers at a level where they feel that way on the tabletop.

This so much. Me and one of my buddies got into AoS through splitting a Soul Wars we won at a 40k event, and then splitting a second one we got dirt cheap. We both ended up nearly quitting because nearly all our early play experiences were terrible. Now he usually plays Legions of Nagash and I usually play Orruk Warclans. We usually only play Nighthaunts and Stormcasts against one another 😆

Edited February 5, 2020 by NauticalSoup

[Maturin]

13 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

...Hagrid? Was I quoting Hagrid? I'm not a Harry Potter guy so if I was it was entirely coincidental haha.

 

Nae, it was just a play on words between Hagrid and Agreed !

[snipersyn]

I`m one of those new (sort of) players that essentially selected the Stormcast faction solely based on aesthetic reasons. I just committed from there.

I play casually, but that being said, and like other SCE players - Anvils seems to be `most ideal` methodology to play this faction right now if you want to win any games.

I  am hoping the new tome will at least rework synergies not just within faction as a whole - but with the entire Order alliance. Now, wouldn't that be something?!

[chord]

7 minutes ago, snipersyn said:

I`m one of those new (sort of) players that essentially selected the Stormcast faction solely based on aesthetic reasons. I just committed from there.

I play casually, but that being said, and like other SCE players - Anvils seems to be `most ideal` methodology to play this faction right now if you want to win any games.

I  am hoping the new tome will at least rework synergies not just within faction as a whole - but with the entire Order alliance. Now, wouldn't that be something?!

I picked them in the early days of AOS (pre-GHB) and its just been watching them go down slowly.  That is disheartening,  of course my other army is Khorne (starter set guy here) is also along the same lines. 

[jhamslam]

2 hours ago, chord said:

I picked them in the early days of AOS (pre-GHB) and its just been watching them go down slowly.  That is disheartening,  of course my other army is Khorne (starter set guy here) is also along the same lines. 

Khornes in a worse position actually. Other than some Tyrants of Blood lists, the mortals have no chance against OBR or Hearthguard. 

[chord]

14 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Khornes in a worse position actually. Other than some Tyrants of Blood lists, the mortals have no chance against OBR or Hearthguard. 

oh I know......  😭

[jhamslam]

21 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

Both SCE and NH need new books, they have fallen behind as AOS 2.0 has been fleshed out. I think DOK have an older book, but they've been doing quite well through 2.0 from what I've read., while the two armies to most likely bring new people into the game are lukewarm. Not only is that bad for repeat customers, but it's bad to advertise to new ones. I don't think anyone here wants an OP book, and I don't think we expect every single unit to be viable in any build, but I don't think it's asking too much to put what are supposed to be literal demigod soldiers at a level where they feel that way on the tabletop.

First codex syndrome , thats all it is. SM had the same issue until recently

[NauticalSoup]

45 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

First codex syndrome , thats all it is. SM had the same issue until recently

In fact I'd say that SMs have had this problem for virtually the entire history of the game. Even back in the ancient days of Rogue Trader, Space Marines kept getting powercrept by their adversarial counterparts, and each new edition would start out with a boost to the Space Marine's arsenal (or even statline, in the case of 2nd edition), only for them to be subsequently overshot by later rules releases.

Seems likely recently GW has decided the solution is to just... never ever stop writing new rules for Space Marines? 40k sucks pretty bad atm lol

[jhamslam]

6 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

In fact I'd say that SMs have had this problem for virtually the entire history of the game. Even back in the ancient days of Rogue Trader, Space Marines kept getting powercrept by their adversarial counterparts, and each new edition would start out with a boost to the Space Marine's arsenal (or even statline, in the case of 2nd edition), only for them to be subsequently overshot by later rules releases.

Seems likely recently GW has decided the solution is to just... never ever stop writing new rules for Space Marines? 40k sucks pretty bad atm lol

i dont wanna make this thread about 40k, but they overdid with the Chapter supplements.

The new codex was good enough, a couple rules on the side wouldnt have hurt any chapter.

Problem starts when you start giving the same faction's sub-factions new strategms, artifacts, powers, abilities waaay beyond and above what anyone else has in the game. Like imagine having a separate book for each stormhost, we'd have more rules than any other AoS faction ever, and yeah itd be cancer

[snipersyn]

1 hour ago, jhamslam said:

Problem starts when you start giving the same faction's sub-factions new strategms, artifacts, powers, abilities waaay beyond and above what anyone else has in the game. Like imagine having a separate book for each stormhost, we'd have more rules than any other AoS faction ever, and yeah itd be cancer

While I don't doubt this could be an eventual direction for Stormcast (given there are enough chambers right now to give each one their own tome) this would convolute things even more methinks.

[NauticalSoup]

I think we can all agree, the last thing anybody wants is for Stormcast to rise to the top via the same method as Space Marines have in 8th edition: through a gigantic mountain of rushed splatbooks. One decent book is more than sufficient, please and thank you.

[PJetski]

4 hours ago, jhamslam said:

i dont wanna make this thread about 40k, but they overdid with the Chapter supplements.

The new codex was good enough, a couple rules on the side wouldnt have hurt any chapter.

Problem starts when you start giving the same faction's sub-factions new strategms, artifacts, powers, abilities waaay beyond and above what anyone else has in the game. Like imagine having a separate book for each stormhost, we'd have more rules than any other AoS faction ever, and yeah itd be cancer

The space marine chapters with their own supplement have unique units and distinct playstyles.

It wouldn't work with Stormcast because our stormhosts don't really have any kind of strategic identity. If all the stormhosts had unique models and specific playstyles then it would make sense to give them their own supplements.

[jhamslam]

6 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The space marine chapters with their own supplement have unique units and distinct playstyles.

It wouldn't work with Stormcast because our stormhosts don't really have any kind of strategic identity. If all the stormhosts had unique models and specific playstyles then it would make sense to give them their own supplements.

fair point

 

btw thanks for your advice on anvilstrike, i really appreciate it, and wouldnt have had a hope with SCE if it werent for it.

[NauticalSoup]

30 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The space marine chapters with their own supplement have unique units and distinct playstyles.

It wouldn't work with Stormcast because our stormhosts don't really have any kind of strategic identity. If all the stormhosts had unique models and specific playstyles then it would make sense to give them their own supplements.

This largely isn't true. Imperial Fists have two unique units and they're both special characters. Salamanders have two unique units and they're both special characters. Iron Hands have one unique unit and it's a special character. Are you seeing a pattern?

Codex Space Marine chapters have never required their own bespoke splatbooks for 30 years of the game's history. This is something that literally just changed in 2019. The only chapters that traditionally had their own books were the EXTREMELY different ones, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves (once upon a time Black Templars but they got rolled back into Codex Space Marines after 5th). And importantly, they do not get access to the full range of vanilla toys. In this scenario it would be like if Hallowed Knights weren't allowed to use Stormcast Eternals, and had to use the Hallowed Knights book and armylist instead. Their special stuff represents a substitution for the vanilla stuff. Blood Angels have been whining about not having Thunderfire Cannons for 10 years. But for anyone who isn't one of those 3, you used the SM book.

Remember that Space Marine chapters are even smaller than stormhosts (at least by most reports of a stormhost's capabilities). There's only so much room for strategic identity in an organization that's basically locked to battalion strength.

Edit: Marine chapters do have identities that differentiate them in their tactics and strategies, but nearly all chapters still use virtually the entire arsenal of units. The identities describe preferences rather than capabilities. This is, incidentally, almost exactly like Stormhosts.

Edited February 6, 2020 by NauticalSoup

[Mark Williams]

I agree that the SCE stormhosts could be adapted to their own books very easily, and that the parallel to what's been done with SMs applies equally.

As a Hammers of Sigmar player, all you'd have to do to make me "happy" is to give some bonuses to redeemer units and dracoths and dragons. Maybe a special dracoth assault unit or a special redeemer unit with some extra rules etc.... You could even give the army some extra arm-wide rules. Yes, it would probably not be fair to the other stormhosts, but gosh darnet we already have more special characters than most space marine chapters get several times over.

Vandus, Gavriel, Aventis, Astrea, neave blacktalon... sheesh that's enough right there to get our own supplement.

[OkayestDM]

For my part I think that a series of Stormhost supplements would be impractical. I'd rather they just fine-tune the Stormhosts in the book so they were more useful and added real flavor.

That said,  I wouldn't mind if GW gave us ways to customize our own Stormhost. Just, preferably all in one book.

Still, we've got big red buttons for 3 more named chambers just waiting for a Sigmar "The hell I can't!"  We didn't get anything last year, so who knows, maybe there's an update in the near(ish) future? If they do pop a new chamber, I hope it's more like Extremis. Just a few models. We don't really need much else, we just need what we already have to be good.

[NauticalSoup]

@Mark Williams I wouldn't want it to happen because I despise rules bloat, but Hammers of Sigmar having their own special supplement is definitely within the realm of possibility and would be a trivially easy way for GW to spell a bunch of books. The only thing that might stop it is the sheer volume of negativity surrounding 40k's marine supplements.

@OkayestDM Hopefully the Sacrosanct Chamber opening doesn't signal how they intend to release new lines in the future, with all the focus being on just the new miniatures while all the old warscrolls continue to collect dust. Sacrosanct having their own basic infantry "Liberator, only better" model is... worrying.

[Mark Williams]

19 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

@Mark Williams I wouldn't want it to happen because I despise rules bloat, but Hammers of Sigmar having their own special supplement is definitely within the realm of possibility and would be a trivially easy way for GW to spell a bunch of books. The only thing that might stop it is the sheer volume of negativity surrounding 40k's marine supplements.

I don't keep up with 40k community much mostly because there's nothing like TGA on that side of the game that I know of.

However, I'm a long-time player of Salamanders, ever since they appeared in the Armageddon book in 3rd ed. I was ecstatic last year when they brought out that supplement, and I've enjoyed it a lot. For me personally, I loved it and I don't want them to take my book away again. I didn't realize there were people who were angry about it.

Just finished this guy a few weeks ago and love the model.

[NauticalSoup]

@Mark Williams To many (myself included) the supplements and the subsequent psychic awakening books (plus vigilus before) represent a level of rules bloat in 40k that has rendered the game unsalvageable. AoS is my only game now even though I own 10,000 pts of Space Marines. I have two close friends going to a big 40k event this month and they're both carrying, and I kid you not, about 35 lbs. worth of books each. The supplements are just one facet of this bloat but they're an unfortunate trend in how GW has handled 8th.

The other side is that they make power creep unmanageable (because you have units whose performance varies so massively from chapter to chapter and makes points balances impossible) so you need tons and tons and tons of errata and faqs for multiple books, which also expands the bloat. If you don't follow the comp scene Space Marines are absolutely stomping now and represent a large majority of placing lists in comp events. 

So how this relates to Sigmar is that 8th edition 40k represents, to me, a worst-case-scenario. A fail state of horrendous bloat and power creep that only a massive reset (ironically, like 8th edition) could fix.