Jump to content

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, armisael said:

Just look at the KO changes. I hope that our warrior chamber will get the same treatment.

More likely, we will see models from new chamber with fancy rules instead. Meanwhile the old warrior chamber will still be left to gather dust on the shelves, with further unnecessary nerf to their rules. Yes, I am looking at you Starsoul Maces.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

More likely, we will see models from new chamber with fancy rules instead. Meanwhile the old warrior chamber will still be left to gather dust on the shelves, with further unnecessary nerf to their rules. Yes, I am looking at you Starsoul Maces.

SCE Battleforce still sells worse from them all , I hope this shows them they messed up something. And money talks usually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Topic of discussion: Do you think SCE issues can be fixed through points? Sure, a new Battletome could give us new abilities, perhaps summoning, or shrug saves, or new MW output abilities - but we already have a good amount of tools between Scions of the Storm, Subfactions (counting Gavriel as part of Hammers), Aetherwing countercharges, at least one super good Prayer, and a very reasonable Endless Spell. Rather than reprinting a whole book and changing the way the army works (again), throwing some 20% price drops across the board (or more for Warrior Chamber) could make the army quite competitive again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Topic of discussion: Do you think SCE issues can be fixed through points? Sure, a new Battletome could give us new abilities, perhaps summoning, or shrug saves, or new MW output abilities - but we already have a good amount of tools between Scions of the Storm, Subfactions (counting Gavriel as part of Hammers), Aetherwing countercharges, at least one super good Prayer, and a very reasonable Endless Spell. Rather than reprinting a whole book and changing the way the army works (again), throwing some 20% price drops across the board (or more for Warrior Chamber) could make the army quite competitive again. 

Honestly, I’m not a fan of point reduction treatment because it will also affect to my wallet as I need more model to play.

So, I would prefer to change the warscroll.  (seriously Stardrake need a revamp warscroll)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, armisael said:

Honestly, I’m not a fan of point reduction treatment because it will also affect to my wallet as I need more model to play.

So, I would prefer to change the warscroll.  (seriously Stardrake need a revamp warscroll)

While that's a valid concern, you can only buff a very elite army before it breaks, at least in my experience. Elite has the downside of being very weak to individual losses, but if you fix them and make them too durable AND as killy as they currently are, you're creating a whole new set of issues. I wonder if just releasing a single cheap body unit (or reducing one unit to make it better at being a horde) might help alleviate that, without making the whole army too cheap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Topic of discussion: Do you think SCE issues can be fixed through points? Sure, a new Battletome could give us new abilities, perhaps summoning, or shrug saves, or new MW output abilities - but we already have a good amount of tools between Scions of the Storm, Subfactions (counting Gavriel as part of Hammers), Aetherwing countercharges, at least one super good Prayer, and a very reasonable Endless Spell. Rather than reprinting a whole book and changing the way the army works (again), throwing some 20% price drops across the board (or more for Warrior Chamber) could make the army quite competitive again. 

The main issue is that there are so many books that aren’t as good as the new stuff, and they just got through making our own new stuff more expensive in the last update. We’re okay except when compared against the newer books, which is only weird when you consider that our own book is not really that old. I think it points to them doing a pretty bad job updating out book properly this last time.

 I would really like to see longstrike raptors reworked as I personally get tired of everyone pointing to them and saying that we’re fine.

 I had high hopes the last time our book got updated, but my expectations at this point are pretty low for the army. I think they are exactly where GW wants them to be, unfortunately. It’s an average army, for people to start collecting with. If you want to play competitively, do a specific build or just move along to one of the good armies.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think point drops alone would do. Most of our units aren't that bad in a vacuum. But they scale horribly with larger units and lack other armies' boni for large units (base size makes a lot of this, and the rules should take into account that a single Liberator is opposed by 3 clanrats or w/e).

Reducing cost gives us just more mediocre toys to play, instead of the always-outnumbered-feel that i think this faction should have. And let's get some proper fighting heroes. Some source of rend -2 in melee. A better save than greatswords with their half cuirasses. I could continue, but i've rambled enough.

To conclude: Buffs to Warscrolls would serve the army far better than points drops.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Topic of discussion: Do you think SCE issues can be fixed through points? Sure, a new Battletome could give us new abilities, perhaps summoning, or shrug saves, or new MW output abilities - but we already have a good amount of tools between Scions of the Storm, Subfactions (counting Gavriel as part of Hammers), Aetherwing countercharges, at least one super good Prayer, and a very reasonable Endless Spell. Rather than reprinting a whole book and changing the way the army works (again), throwing some 20% price drops across the board (or more for Warrior Chamber) could make the army quite competitive again. 

You could do a lot with some point cost changes, but all that does is give us more bodies on the table. Do we need more bodies? I don't think so, it seems like we have the right number of models. I would rather see those models get more effective than get more numerous. 

Our battalions probably still wouldn't be worth using because they use combinations of units and give special rules that don't really do much.

Our rules don't reflect the fluff properly. Why does a Lord-Celestant, the leader of Sigmars reforged demigod-like superhumans, have the same number of wounds as a regular human general? 

We don't need a total rewrite, but it feels like we are using a 1.0 battletome.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Lucur said:

A better save than greatswords with their half cuirasses.

To that point, do people think it would be truly game-breaking if SCE went full Space Marines and got +1 to existing saves across the board, making it mostly 3+ and Leaders 2+? Perhaps with the removal of Staunch, as that would just be kinda silly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Requizen said:

To that point, do people think it would be truly game-breaking if SCE went full Space Marines and got +1 to existing saves across the board, making it mostly 3+ and Leaders 2+? Perhaps with the removal of Staunch, as that would just be kinda silly.

Before the Fyreslayers and Bonereapers books it would be impossible to imagine an army that durable.

Now I think you can easily make all Stormcast units a 3+ save and give all our heroes +2 wounds... assuming you did something about Staunch Defender and Warding Lantern.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So with the recent FAQ clarifying Longstrike range in the hero phase, I wanted to re-open the discussion we had a long time ago about 9x Longstrikes vs 20x Judicators in Anvilstrike.

Longstrikes Pros:

  • Rend-2 and mortal wounds make focused fire more reliable
  • ~9% more damage on average vs 4+, ~25% more damage vs 3+
  • Aetherwing control
  • Longer stationary range, dont have to commit to any engagements
  • Mortal Wounds against enemies that charge you?
  • Smaller footprint than 20 Juds

Judicator Pros:

  • Battleline, effectively saving you 100 points on Liberator tax
  • Way more wounds, 40 instead of 18. Special weapons are the last to be removed.
  • Fairly similar damage, but it can spike way higher because of Shockbolt bows
  • Can take anti-horde Thunderbolt Crossbows instead of Shockbolt bows (though they are only 18" range)
  • Roughly the same damage vs 5+ saves, ~20% more damage against 6+ saves

The biggest downside I can see is that Judicators cant control aetherwings, you would have to bring some Hurricanes if you want them... but maybe we dont need aetherwings... maybe we can run a unit of 6x Desolators to act as an anvil instead?

Can you make Anvilstrike work like this:

Incantor
Azyros
Heraldor
Relictor
Castellant
2x5 Liberators
1x20 Judicators
1x6 Desolator
2000/2000

This list is much stronger against shooting and mortal wounds, but I'm worried that without the Aetherwings we won't be able to stop mega fast double tap fight first armies. Furthermore, I like having those units of Aetherwings and Liberators for objective control.

What do you think?

longstrike vs judicator.PNG

Edited by PJetski
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Requizen said:

To that point, do people think it would be truly game-breaking if SCE went full Space Marines and got +1 to existing saves across the board, making it mostly 3+ and Leaders 2+? Perhaps with the removal of Staunch, as that would just be kinda silly.

Fluff wise, 2 wounds and 4+ doesn't match the God-Forged armour worn by heroes from history resurrected on the anvil of apotheosis. Space Marines are now much closer to the fluff (though making them literally as good as the fluff would not be workable I imagine). 

SCE having 3+ makes sense- Longbeards have 3+. Heroes could even continue to have 3+, just give them more wounds?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Presence of Aetherwings alone makes taking longstrikes over judicators a reasonable choice.

Especially when so many units nowadays run and charge in the same turn, or use command ability to move twice and charge on turn one.

 

And some people still complain shooting in AoS is too strong.:/

Edited by Sagittarii Orientalis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, PJetski said:

You could do a lot with some point cost changes, but all that does is give us more bodies on the table. Do we need more bodies? I don't think so, it seems like we have the right number of models. I would rather see those models get more effective than get more numerous. 

Our battalions probably still wouldn't be worth using because they use combinations of units and give special rules that don't really do much.

Our rules don't reflect the fluff properly. Why does a Lord-Celestant, the leader of Sigmars reforged demigod-like superhumans, have the same number of wounds as a regular human general? 

We don't need a total rewrite, but it feels like we are using a 1.0 battletome.

I feel the same. Our current battletome is like 1.0 battletome + Scrosanct Chamber.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/31/2019 at 12:55 AM, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

More likely, we will see models from new chamber with fancy rules instead. Meanwhile the old warrior chamber will still be left to gather dust on the shelves, with further unnecessary nerf to their rules. Yes, I am looking at you Starsoul Maces.

I realised yesterday that even Sequitors dont have 2 inch reach with their grandmaces. Holy hell i almost i want to write to GW expressing how utterly absurd this is for a 40mm unit

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, xking said:

I looked it up again, you right.  

It's still cold comfort though, to be honest... 120 for that and his single-use whatever. That's it. He's awful in combat, but he's supposed to be an elite combat Knight and a paragon among his peers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi guys. I want to start warhammer aos and for my first army I decided to choose the stormcast ethernals. First question, are they competitive right now ? Second question which is the most competitive stormcast list at the moment ?

Thanks a lot

Edited by Ghiggio
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Ghiggio said:

Hi guys. I want to start warhammer aos and for my first army I decided to choose the stormcast ethernals. First question, are they competitive right now ? Second question which is the most competitive stormcast list at the moment ?

Thanks a lot

If you read back a few pages in this very thread you will probably be able to answer that question for yourself lol

If you can't be bothered the answers are:
1) No

2) Shootcast ie take a max-sized missile unit like longstrikes and use the CA of Anvil Strike to doubleshoot them (there are a number of good list ideas scattered throughout here but I can't imagine any of them will win you a tournament - SCE seem to be one of the weakest books in the game right now.)

If being competitive is what matters to you there are many better choices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, PJetski said:

So with the recent FAQ clarifying Longstrike range in the hero phase, I wanted to re-open the discussion we had a long time ago about 9x Longstrikes vs 20x Judicators in Anvilstrike.

Longstrikes Pros:

  • Rend-2 and mortal wounds make focused fire more reliable
  • ~9% more damage on average vs 4+, ~25% more damage vs 3+
  • Aetherwing control
  • Longer stationary range, dont have to commit to any engagements
  • Mortal Wounds against enemies that charge you?
  • Smaller footprint than 20 Juds

Judicator Pros:

  • Battleline, effectively saving you 100 points on Liberator tax
  • Way more wounds, 40 instead of 18. Special weapons are the last to be removed.
  • Fairly similar damage, but it can spike way higher because of Shockbolt bows
  • Can take anti-horde Thunderbolt Crossbows instead of Shockbolt bows (though they are only 18" range)
  • Roughly the same damage vs 5+ saves, ~20% more damage against 6+ saves

The biggest downside I can see is that Judicators cant control aetherwings, you would have to bring some Hurricanes if you want them... but maybe we dont need aetherwings... maybe we can run a unit of 6x Desolators to act as an anvil instead?

Can you make Anvilstrike work like this:

Incantor
Azyros
Heraldor
Relictor
Castellant
2x5 Liberators
1x20 Judicators
1x6 Desolator
2000/2000

This list is much stronger against shooting and mortal wounds, but I'm worried that without the Aetherwings we won't be able to stop mega fast double tap fight first armies. Furthermore, I like having those units of Aetherwings and Liberators for objective control.

What do you think?

 

I like the idea, but you either need Aetherwings or a true screen unit. Too many things can walk across the board and charge on turn 1 no problem. Especially with how high drop this army is, the chances of getting ripped to shreds by a KoS or Stonehorn or Eindrinrigger or whatever charge before they shoot is too high. I saw a marked increase in my win % when I switched from 1 unit of Aetherwings to 3 units - they're that good.

Honestly it's made me consider that perhaps it's not even the shooting that's strong, but the Birds themselves. Vanguard Justicar can help with drops while still bringing the Birds and shooting, even outside of Anvils multishot. Charge denial is so insanely powerful in a game so reliant on melee damage and mobility in general. Turning off Charges is effectively reducing movement for many units, when they're trying to charge onto an objective or into a better position. 

34 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

If you read back a few pages in this very thread you will probably be able to answer that question for yourself lol

If you can't be bothered the answers are:
1) No

2) Shootcast ie take a max-sized missile unit like longstrikes and use the CA of Anvil Strike to doubleshoot them (there are a number of good list ideas scattered throughout here but I can't imagine any of them will win you a tournament - SCE seem to be one of the weakest books in the game right now.)

If being competitive is what matters to you there are many better choices.

Shootcast is competitive. I think the issue is that it's a bit boring and hasn't changed much since 2017 when Aetherstrike Force was first worked on. Various Shootcast lists can easily go 4-1 at an event or even 5-0 depending on draws, and is one of the things many factions fear facing in the meta. I'm getting bored of it since I played Aetherstrike into Anvilstrike for over 2 years and the other 80% of the book is non-competitive. Reasonable external balance, low internal balance. 

At this point they should just revert Sequitors, Evocators, Gavriel, Ballistas, and the Castellant to previous values. The Gav Bomb list isn't even that scary compared to Slaanesh, FEC, or Skaven.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Requizen said:

At this point they should just revert Sequitors, Evocators, Gavriel, Ballistas, and the Castellant to previous values. The Gav Bomb list isn't even that scary compared to Slaanesh, FEC, or Skaven.

I was honestly surprised they raised the values when they did.  Seemed like really bad timing.  SCE wasn't exactly dominating at the time.  And they were releasing comparative nonsense in the new books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...