AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Mark Williams]

Regardless of how many attacks he gets, he still dies every time someone gives him a dirty look. But I admit it would be hilarious for him to come out and wipe out a 40 man unit of something in one attack sequence.

[armisael]

In my opinion, their intention is to add 2 attacks only in your movement phase. But they just wrote a bad FAQ.

 

Edited: Just re-read his warscroll. It is very clear that Prime only get +2 attacks in your movement phase. FAQ just to make it clear that you get +2 each turn not only once.

Edited December 20, 2019 by armisael

[rosa]

I did not know that...

So, if I start the game in Battleround 1, he already has 7 attacks in round 2!?

Not too Bad!

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

Speaking of Celestant-Prime, I recall some skaven players around me infuriated by points increase of Warpseer. Which after the errata costs......320 points.

Then I look at Celestant-Prime and realise how spoiled some of the players with top factions are.

[ledha]

2 hours ago, rosa said:

I did not know that...

So, if I start the game in Battleround 1, he already has 7 attacks in round 2!?

Not too Bad!

How the hell did you understand that.

The celestant prime has 3 attacks and gain +2 for each turn he spend in the sky.

in each of your movement phase, you either decide to stay in the sky (so you gain+2 attack) or strike from the heaven (arrive on the board, no bonus anymore)

If you arrive on the board turn 1, you didn't spend any turn in the sky, so you'll only have 3 attacks. If you strike from heaven turn 2, you spent one turn in reserve (the first turn) so you'll have 5 attacks, 7 turn 3,  9 turn 4, etc...

Edited December 20, 2019 by ledha

[Bayul]

Can I come back to Sequitors for a second? How important are the weapon choices for them? I have a mix of mono-pose models with shields and greatmaces and multipose models. My battleline is 20-5-5. Should I pay attention for homogeneous units or doesn't it really matter? 

[Lucur]

Units should be homogenous if you want to play in any public venue, as they can't be mixed per the warscroll. 

I assume with greatmace and shield you mean the regular maces as they come in soulwars and co. Greatmaces (the ones with -1 rend and 2d) are supposed to be two-handed. Of those you can use 2 per 5 models in the unit.

Concerning swords versus maces, swords are slightly better, but the difference is negligible. (Unless you use Celestial Blades and or Empower on them, then swords pull ahead by a bit more. Still nothing compared to what the unit's greatmaces do.)

Finally converting the weapon hands is pretty easy if you're confident with a 1mm drill and some wire, just cut of the weapon above the hand. Drill into the connection points, measure the wire to fit the holes flush and add a little glue to fixate.

Not sure if this really answers your question, but it's enough of a wall of text already

Edited December 22, 2019 by Lucur

[Blitzel]

Greetings all. I just started SCE. I have acquired some cheap SW sacrosanct units. I wanted to share my first test mini, I cally host 'The Starforged Templars' 

I have cut some small plasticard tiles to put on the base. I was thinking of doing some moss covered tiles with stirland battlemire on the rest. Thoughts and tips?

[Blitzel]

Now with basing.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Blitzel
Uploaded same picture twice.

[j0lt]

Damn, I'm internally conflicted...I was given the new Battleforce for Xmas (with receipt if I wanted to return it) but I really like the stormcast models in the box.....however I don't want to get crushed!

I could get behind some resident evil hunter inspired dracolines.

Fellow knights in shining armour, help! 🤔

[XReN]

1 hour ago, j0lt said:

Damn, I'm internally conflicted...I was given the new Battleforce for Xmas (with receipt if I wanted to return it) but I really like the stormcast models in the box.....however I don't want to get crushed!

I could get behind some resident evil hunter inspired dracolines.

Fellow knights in shining armour, help! 🤔

If you like the models then just go for it!

However it will take time to find balance in power between SCE and whatever armies your opponent's might bring so better brace yourself. If those opponents will be your friends - you'll figure something out so your games will bring mutual enjoyment. 

[Evantas]

2 hours ago, j0lt said:

Damn, I'm internally conflicted...I was given the new Battleforce for Xmas (with receipt if I wanted to return it) but I really like the stormcast models in the box.....however I don't want to get crushed!

I could get behind some resident evil hunter inspired dracolines.

Fellow knights in shining armour, help! 🤔

Think with the slight buff to Dracolines, the performance gap between dracoline + anvilstrike vs. top armies should be close enough that skill and luck plays a bigger difference than the imbalance. 

[Nos]

I say all this with the caveat that I dont believe GW are remotely interested in competitive balance:

The problem with Stormcast is an echo of the issue with Space Marines in 40k. In the fiction they are a force of demigods not only capable of going to to toe with most any foe, but whose emergence basically saved the universe, such is their power and efficacy. GW have done a better job with SC than SM in representing them faithfully to this origin on the tabletop, but the power creep of other factions is a real problem to SC and by extension the entirety of AOS.

With an army whose lore basically presents them as innately extra and better than  everyone else, on whom existence of the Mortal Realms depend and who are involved in everything, everytime a faction is improved upon by GW the essence of SC is impaired to some degree because the existence of a superior faction to SC throws the entire universe off-kilter. If the SC dont hold the tension of the Mortal Realms in place then the lore dosent work, there is no reason that orruks or Slaanesh or whoever Next gets a tome dont take over the universe without the SC strong enough to police thr threat.

The logical thing to do in both 40k and AOS would be to use SM and SC as the spirit level around which to build every other faction, basically ensure that each army playing to their respective strengths can compete against them but not beat them at their own game. Because that's the entirety of the fiction, that's how it evolves; SC either hold the next bad thing in check or the bad thing doubles down and schemes on the basis of its unique aspects and swings momentum etc until SC can find a way to push back. They *have* to be what they're supposed to be, an army who can take all comers but who are also prone to being out thought, out manoeuvred and blinded by over confidence and dogma, because the mrchanics of the entire ficfion is dictated by Sigmars power and hubris more than anything else. As Sigmars avatar the SC have to be *something*, not vanilla second rate Jack's of all trade. They dont really have anything of note going on.

With both 40k and AOS though you have the main protagonists of the fiction represented on the tabletop as elite costed troops who aren't elite, whose versatility is simply translated as being diffuse on the tabletop, whose legendary courage and morale is only above average, whose supposedly near immortal constitution and god forged armour is slightly better than a man wearing a leather cuirass, whose aeons forged combat prowess is one pip better than a goblin. At this point in the cycle a Stormcast eternal is pound for pound one of the least effective combatants going, a total contradiction. 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Nos

[Kelsicle]

13 hours ago, j0lt said:

Damn, I'm internally conflicted...I was given the new Battleforce for Xmas (with receipt if I wanted to return it) but I really like the stormcast models in the box.....however I don't want to get crushed!

I could get behind some resident evil hunter inspired dracolines.

Fellow knights in shining armour, help! 🤔

I was given the Battleforce as well, and am in a similar position - love the models but don’t want to get stomped every game. On the other hand though I think the Battleforce is the base of a pretty solid middle tier army, add in the Lord Arcanum on Dracoline, some Balistae and Knight Incantor or two and you have an army that will compete in all phases of the game. Unless you are trying to go 5-0 at tournaments and be ultra competitive I don’t think you have too much to worry about.

My approach is going to be taking my time to paint them up to a decent standard over the next 3-6 months and hope that a new tome will drop this year 😬

 

[Nizrah]

1250 - meant to be competive:

Anvils of Heldenhammer
Starkdrake Junior - 420 (tempest axe)
2x 5 Libs
2x3 Birds
9 Vanguard longshot

What do yuo think?

[readercolin]

22 hours ago, j0lt said:

Damn, I'm internally conflicted...I was given the new Battleforce for Xmas (with receipt if I wanted to return it) but I really like the stormcast models in the box.....however I don't want to get crushed!

I could get behind some resident evil hunter inspired dracolines.

Fellow knights in shining armour, help! 🤔

With the points drop, I can go back to running this list:

Celestial Vindicators
Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline (general)
Knight-Heraldor
Lord-Ordinator
Knight-Incantor
3x 5 Sequitors
6 Evocators on Celestial Dracolines
4 Celestar Ballista
1 Command Point

This particular list is not going to go 5-0 in a tournament.  However, it might be good enough to go 4-1, and definitely 3-2.  I was using this list prior to the GHB 2019 coming out where the points increase for the sequitors and ballista's forced me to drop something, but now that the kitties have dropped 80 points for the pack I can go back to playing with this.  If you started with Soul Wars and got the battleforce, all you are missing for this army is the Heraldor, the Ordinator, and a few ballista's.  While I prefer to run it with the Dracoline Arcanum, the one mounted on a Gryph Charger is almost as good.  To date, I haven't gone to a tournament with this list, but I've done a lot of practice games with people prepping for tournaments and have an overall positive win-rate with this list.

If you aren't fond of the ballista + ordinator plan, you can swap them out for 9 Longstrikes + either a Relictor or Vexillor, and swap on over to Anvils to have a small variation on the current standard anvils lists.  If you got the Soul Wars box, then you would end up wasting a Ballista (as well as of course the castigators and evocators), but if you only have the battleforce then it takes about the same amount to do the longstrikes as it does the ballistas.

So if you like the models, don't be afraid to build for a force like this one.

[j0lt]

3 hours ago, readercolin said:

With the points drop, I can go back to running this list:

Celestial Vindicators
Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline (general)
Knight-Heraldor
Lord-Ordinator
Knight-Incantor
3x 5 Sequitors
6 Evocators on Celestial Dracolines
4 Celestar Ballista
1 Command Point

This particular list is not going to go 5-0 in a tournament.  However, it might be good enough to go 4-1, and definitely 3-2.  I was using this list prior to the GHB 2019 coming out where the points increase for the sequitors and ballista's forced me to drop something, but now that the kitties have dropped 80 points for the pack I can go back to playing with this.  If you started with Soul Wars and got the battleforce, all you are missing for this army is the Heraldor, the Ordinator, and a few ballista's.  While I prefer to run it with the Dracoline Arcanum, the one mounted on a Gryph Charger is almost as good.  To date, I haven't gone to a tournament with this list, but I've done a lot of practice games with people prepping for tournaments and have an overall positive win-rate with this list.

If you aren't fond of the ballista + ordinator plan, you can swap them out for 9 Longstrikes + either a Relictor or Vexillor, and swap on over to Anvils to have a small variation on the current standard anvils lists.  If you got the Soul Wars box, then you would end up wasting a Ballista (as well as of course the castigators and evocators), but if you only have the battleforce then it takes about the same amount to do the longstrikes as it does the ballistas.

So if you like the models, don't be afraid to build for a force like this one.

Thank you very much for the detailed breakdown, I'm not overly in love with the ballistae but I could get behind the longstrikes, I would've liked more Evocators on foot but I think the Dracolines may satisfy my itch for battle mages.

How should I play the Dracolines - As a hammer cavalry? Or split them into chaff hunters? Or just get them stuck into everything and anything with my Arcanum nearby?

[Charleston]

I noticed that the SCE-Subforum isn´t available for not registrered users btw.

 

I am curerntly concidering if I shall rather sell my SCE or finish painting them. I have some issues playing them as the army seems quite slow, althrough sturdy. Afters some conciderations to play an tanky list that reflect wounds, I would rather try something fast. What are the experiences with Gavriel Sureheart? Beeing able to do some precision strikes into the enemy backlines sounds awesome. He is also a cheaper fix than a celestand prime for example. With 120pts also easier to include into a list

[readercolin]

7 hours ago, j0lt said:

Thank you very much for the detailed breakdown, I'm not overly in love with the ballistae but I could get behind the longstrikes, I would've liked more Evocators on foot but I think the Dracolines may satisfy my itch for battle mages.

How should I play the Dracolines - As a hammer cavalry? Or split them into chaff hunters? Or just get them stuck into everything and anything with my Arcanum nearby?

As I mentioned, this list has 2 separate forces to kill stuff.  Usually I put the ballista's + ordinator in the sky, so that I can drop them 18" away from a must-kill target.  In general, I try to get the ballista's to kill one of my opponents centerpiece units - whether that is a monster, or a big block of infantry, etc.  The 18" range of rapid fire means that I can even hit targets that are somewhat bubble-wrapped as well.

This leaves the kitties to do their thing.  And their thing is charging around the board at a rapid speed and attempting to obliterate whatever they end up running into.  Usually in a game with objectives, the opponent has to split their forces up to capture the objectives.  What I tend to do is shift the kitties around so that they can strike on the board wherever the opponent is weakest.  For instance, take the battleplan shifting objectives.  In this battleplan, there are 3 objectives in the center of the board.  If my opponent decides to group up to take the middle objective, then I will bring my ballista's down to engage them on that objective, and then bring the kitties around to either the left or right objective.  This generally allows them to obliterate the smaller force that was put over there on the charge, leaving the kitties free to move on to the next separated unit the following turn.

Offensively, the cats will obliterate whatever they charge.  I run mine with 4 staff's and 2 tempest blade's.  Without any buffs, a unit of 6 will deal 31 wounds to a save of -, or ~19 damage to a save of 4+, and then follow that up with 6 mortal wounds.  However, you can get the mounts to hit on a 2+ with pride leader, everything wounding on a 2+ with celestial blades, and re-rolling wound rolls with Empower.  Put all 3 of those together, and your block of 6 will be doing 51 damage to a save of -, or 31 damage to a 4+ save, and then follow that up with 6 mortal wounds.  So believe me when I say that they will obliterate whatever they hit.

However, having only a 4+ save in return means that most armies can deal with them on the crack-back.  This means that you have to be careful of your positioning so that way they don't get charged back, or shot off the board in return.  Generally, if you can successfully get off 2 charges in the game, the game is yours.  This is why I tend to have them slaughter around the edges of my opponents force, leaving them stuck between going after the ballista's or going after the cats.  For reference, the 4 Ballista's + ordinator do around the same amount of damage as the 6 cat's do when the cat's don't have any buffs going.

Lastly, to demonstrate the difference between the buffed charging cats and un-buffed, non-charging cats, here are a few numbers.  Fully buffed, the charging kitties can do ~57 damage to a save of - between damage and mortal wounds, or ~37 to a save of 4+.  Without the buffs and without a charge, they will do ~29 damage to a save of -, and ~19 to a save of 4+.  If they get their buff's but aren't charging, that changes to ~42 damage to a save of -, and ~27 damage to a 4+ save.  Hopefully this demonstrates to you how you really want to use them in combat.

[readercolin]

3 minutes ago, Charleston said:

I noticed that the SCE-Subforum isn´t available for not registrered users btw.

 

I am curerntly concidering if I shall rather sell my SCE or finish painting them. I have some issues playing them as the army seems quite slow, althrough sturdy. Afters some conciderations to play an tanky list that reflect wounds, I would rather try something fast. What are the experiences with Gavriel Sureheart? Beeing able to do some precision strikes into the enemy backlines sounds awesome. He is also a cheaper fix than a celestand prime for example. With 120pts also easier to include into a list

Gavriel dropping a block of evocators or sequitors on something tends to obliterate that something.  However, then you are stuck with a unit of evocators/sequitors in your opponents backfield, either far away from other units, or just sitting there as a tempting snack.  Additionally, the most command points you are going to be able to have turn 1 is 3 (that is if you take a battalion + buy command point + turn 1 command point).  When your opponent doesn't know how to screen against the deepstrike charge, this will win you a lot of games (and generate a lot of salt).  Once they figure out how to zone you out though, you are going to start doing much more poorly.  Additionally, many people complain that this leads to games being too samey, with them always doing the exact same thing every game.

If you would rather play with something fast, I recommend looking at either running Evocators on Dracolines, or looking at one of the stardrake lists that are floating around backed up by some Dracothian Guard (Concussors/Fulminators/etc).  They aren't currently the "meta" lists, but building around either of them should be enough to get you a list that could go 3-2 in a tournament.

[FattBooM666]

18 minutes ago, Charleston said:

I noticed that the SCE-Subforum isn´t available for not registrered users btw.

 

I am curerntly concidering if I shall rather sell my SCE or finish painting them. I have some issues playing them as the army seems quite slow, althrough sturdy. Afters some conciderations to play an tanky list that reflect wounds, I would rather try something fast. What are the experiences with Gavriel Sureheart? Beeing able to do some precision strikes into the enemy backlines sounds awesome. He is also a cheaper fix than a celestand prime for example. With 120pts also easier to include into a list

Slow?

Gavbomb, teleports, stardrake, prime, dracoline, heraldors , drop from sky  aetherwings, palladors and prosecutors. 

 

Idk are you just standing still shooting? 🤔

[Charleston]

1 hour ago, FattBooM666 said:

Slow?

Gavbomb, teleports, stardrake, prime, dracoline, heraldors , drop from sky  aetherwings, palladors and prosecutors. 

 

Idk are you just standing still shooting? 🤔

Well, I currently have 20 Sequitors, 5 Evocs on foot, 5 Retributors, Castigators, 3 Ballistas and some heroes. So yeah, from my unit selections shocking close to the enemy looks like the fastest I can get, which is why I concidered Gavriel to go the Gavbomb route, althrough @readercolin pointed some good contra against that. Maybe Dracolines are really a better Idea, also because I could play that battalion with 2x Evocators and 2x Sequitors.

I am really not sure how I shall rate the Stardrake. It looks neat but also so expensive, money and pointwise, that it really looks risky to me to buy it. The celestant Prime meanwhile is half the price, 25% less points and I would really concider it to be a quite damn good option, althrough I already hate thoose wings and really fear to transport the model. Therefore Dracolines or Gavriel look like the best quickfix to me. Althrough I would be really curious about your experiences with the Stardrakes

[Mark Williams]

3 hours ago, readercolin said:

Gavriel dropping a block of evocators or sequitors on something tends to obliterate that something.  However, then you are stuck with a unit of evocators/sequitors in your opponents backfield, either far away from other units, or just sitting there as a tempting snack.  Additionally, the most command points you are going to be able to have turn 1 is 3 (that is if you take a battalion + buy command point + turn 1 command point).  When your opponent doesn't know how to screen against the deepstrike charge, this will win you a lot of games (and generate a lot of salt).  Once they figure out how to zone you out though, you are going to start doing much more poorly.  Additionally, many people complain that this leads to games being too samey, with them always doing the exact same thing every game.

 

As someone who plays Gavriel often, I can confirm the above statements. Although it’s one of the strongest plays we have, over time even my opponents who have learned to counter it eventually grow to hate playing it. The consensus in my own hobby group is that it creates “unfun” games due to the fact that your opponent has to play a defensive game and often gets punished for small mistakes. This eventually generates anger...

[Mark Williams]

removed double post.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Mark Williams

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

3 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

As someone who plays Gavriel often, I can confirm the above statements. Although it’s one of the strongest plays we have, over time even my opponents who have learned to counter it eventually grow to hate playing it. The consensus in my own hobby group is that it creates “unfun” games due to the fact that your opponent has to play a defensive game and often gets punished for small mistakes. This eventually generates anger...

That is actually quite ludicrous. So some players become angry because they actually have to play wisely in order to win against stormcast, instead of just steamrolling them?