AdamR Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, feadair said: I have been planning to build the following army as my next project. Given the new point changes, I will have 80 points left over. Where should I spend them? Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators LEADERS Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220) - General - Spell : Celestial Blades - Mount Trait : Pride Leader Knight-Heraldor (100) Lord-Castellant (120) Lord-Ordinator (140) UNITS 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600) ->520 - 4 x Grandstaves - Lore of Invigoration : Celestial Blades WAR MACHINES Celestar Ballista (110) Celestar Ballista (110) Celestar Ballista (110) Celestar Ballista (110) ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Chronomantic Cogs (80) 2000 points -> 1920 points My instinct is simply to upgrade one unit of Liberators (100) to a unit of Judicators (160). The total cost would be 1980 points. The reasoning is that I would then have six ranged units (Ordinator, 4x Ballistas, Judicators), which would normally be deployed in the Sky. These would drop behind buffed Dracolines and take out any screens or problematic Heroes, allowing the Dracolines to charge in for full effect. What do you think? Any better uses for the 80 points? 10 Skinks to cap an objective? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizrah Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Extra CP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 I think I like a Ghur Battlemage better than Cogs for this since you only have one unit that you're trying to get in their face with. About the same cast requirement, but your opponent doesn't benefit from it. You really only need that speed buff for the alpha strike. Then the mage can shield, bolt, or stand on an objective. After that, I'd either upgrade 2 units of libs to seqs, or grab some skinks for bodies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizrah Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 But with cogs you can manipulate them and have 3+ with full rerolls 😜 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feadair Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 I did think of Skinks (or Freeguild Guard) or an extra CP. However, at first glance an extra ranged unit would seem to contribute more to the main plan of the army, especially since the Celestial Vindicators’s CA’s errata says that you ‘cannot pick the same unit to benefit from this command ability more than once per hero phase.’ As for upgrading Libs to Seqs, does this list really need more melee combat power (an honest question)? Had not thought of the Battlemage, but apart from speed, the Cogs can also give an extra spell and rerolled saves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestantpants Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 So a slight nerf to raptors to go along with only 3 units getting points drops...lol. Oh GW. You really do have it out for stormcast don't you? Also, I know that the stardrake got a points cut, but in what world is it worth 500 points with that warscroll, especially given what other units that cost around the same in other armies can do? The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that GW really is trying to just appease the loud complainers about stormcast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, feadair said: I have been planning to build the following army as my next project. Given the new point changes, I will have 80 points left over. Where should I spend them? Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators LEADERS Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220) - General - Spell : Celestial Blades - Mount Trait : Pride Leader Knight-Heraldor (100) Lord-Castellant (120) Lord-Ordinator (140) UNITS 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600) ->520 - 4 x Grandstaves - Lore of Invigoration : Celestial Blades WAR MACHINES Celestar Ballista (110) Celestar Ballista (110) Celestar Ballista (110) Celestar Ballista (110) ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Chronomantic Cogs (80) 2000 points -> 1920 points My instinct is simply to upgrade one unit of Liberators (100) to a unit of Judicators (160). The total cost would be 1980 points. The reasoning is that I would then have six ranged units (Ordinator, 4x Ballistas, Judicators), which would normally be deployed in the Sky. These would drop behind buffed Dracolines and take out any screens or problematic Heroes, allowing the Dracolines to charge in for full effect. What do you think? Any better uses for the 80 points? You could change some liberators for either sequitors or change a unit to Judicators or something like that. A unit of Aetherwings could also work well to intercept and screen as needed, perhaps floating around the ballistas to counter charge something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feadair Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) Now that I think of it, an alternative, and quite possibly better build would simply be to modify Anvilstrike (my current build) to take advantage of the cost reduction of Dracolines, rather than building a new force around Dracolines and Ballistas. Essentially you replace Evocators on foot with Dracolines, a Knight Incantor with LAoCD, and drop Azyros (and downgrade an endless spell to a Malevolent Maelstrom.) Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer LEADERS Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220) - General - Artefact : Soulthief - Spell : Lightning Blast - Mount Trait : Pride Leader Knight-Heraldor (100) Knight-Incantor (140) - Spell : Stormcaller Lord-Relictor (100) UNITS 6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520) - 4 x Grandstaves - Lore of Invigoration : Celestial Blades 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510) 3 x Aetherwings (50) 3 x Aetherwings (50) ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Malevolent Maelstrom (10) 2000 points You get the power of Longstrikes and the power of Evocators, but the latter comes in a much more mobile form. I am definitely going to test this, once i get the Dracolines painted. Edited December 17, 2019 by feadair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feadair Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Now that I think of it, an alternative, and quite possibly better build would be to simply modify Anvilstrike (my current build) to take advantage of the reduction, rather than building a new force around Dracolines and Ballistas. Essentially you replace Evocators on foot with Dracolines, a Knight Incantor with LAoCD, and drop Azyros (and downgrade an endless spell to a Malevolent Maelstrom.) Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer LEADERS Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220) - General - Artefact : Soulthief - Spell : Lightning Blast - Mount Trait : Pride Leader Knight-Heraldor (100) Knight-Incantor (140) - Spell : Stormcaller Lord-Relictor (100) UNITS 6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520) - 4 x Grandstaves - Lore of Invigoration : Celestial Blades 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510) 3 x Aetherwings (50) 3 x Aetherwings (50) ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Malevolent Maelstrom (10) 2000 points You get the power of Longstrikes and the power of Evocators, but the latter comes in a much more mobile form. I am definitely going to test this, once i get the Dracolines painted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Havent done any AOS in months, and decided to check out the winter update. wow. the hate is still strong for SCE I see. GW needs to stop paying attention to the vocal minority and make SCE competitive at least. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Havent done any AOS in months, and decided to check out the winter update. wow. the hate is still strong for SCE I see. GW needs to stop paying attention to the vocal minority and make SCE competitive at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Anvilstrike with Dracs and LAoCD was already a thing about a year ago. No reason to not revisit. I know using the LAoCD with the dracs can be a bit awkward, but it's good when you can get it going. Other things fighting first is still a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marzillius Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 hours ago, feadair said: I have been planning to build the following army as my next project. Given the new point changes, I will have 80 points left over. Where should I spend them? Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators LEADERS Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220) - General - Spell : Celestial Blades - Mount Trait : Pride Leader Knight-Heraldor (100) Lord-Castellant (120) Lord-Ordinator (140) UNITS 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 5 x Liberators (100) 6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600) ->520 - 4 x Grandstaves - Lore of Invigoration : Celestial Blades WAR MACHINES Celestar Ballista (110) Celestar Ballista (110) Celestar Ballista (110) Celestar Ballista (110) ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Chronomantic Cogs (80) 2000 points -> 1920 points My instinct is simply to upgrade one unit of Liberators (100) to a unit of Judicators (160). The total cost would be 1980 points. The reasoning is that I would then have six ranged units (Ordinator, 4x Ballistas, Judicators), which would normally be deployed in the Sky. These would drop behind buffed Dracolines and take out any screens or problematic Heroes, allowing the Dracolines to charge in for full effect. What do you think? Any better uses for the 80 points? Eyyy, it's my exakt list that I played in my second to last tournament. If you look in my posting history you will find a tournament report using this list. I would use the extra 80 points the list has gained on an additional CP. It's nice having the additional one to be able to make the run roll on the Dracolines into a 6, and with 30 points left over a triumph is highly likely as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 6 hours ago, Maturin said: I'm really disappointed! Only the two drakes and dracoliens got a point reduction ? What the heck! Furthermore, tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Longstrikes can't shoot 30" in ALL hero phase ? IF so that's incredibly stupid! Yo bro, you see this unit ? it didn't move, but it can only shoot 24" right now. Yo bro, you see that unit ? It still didn't move, but now it can shoot 30" because "Shooting phase". "Insert Picard facepalm". To have the +6" range bonus, the restriction is not moving in the movement phase of this turn. The movement phase didn't happened yet, so it's logical you can't have the bonus, since you have zero way to fulfill its conditions 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Worded another way, they need to take time to aim to get the range bonus. They haven't had time to do that yet in the hero phase. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l1censetochill Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ledha said: To have the +6" range bonus, the restriction is not moving in the movement phase of this turn. The movement phase didn't happened yet, so it's logical you can't have the bonus, since you have zero way to fulfill its conditions I wouldn't argue with you that it's the correct way to implement the rules as they're written - no movement phase, so no way to fulfill the condition. On that we agree. I do think, however, that the Longshot rules themselves are poorly written and overly restrictive compared to newer iterations of the same idea, and should have been changed to read similarly to how things are now being written. In our book, it's "add 6" to the range of the unit's weapons if it didn't make a move in the movement phase of the same turn." In Cities of Sigmar, lots of their ranged units have bonus abilities that involve not moving - like the Irondrake's Blaze Away, which just gives a bonus if the unit "has not made a move in the same turn." Handgunners, Eternal Guard, etc. also have similar wording. It's like the "re-roll failed saves" instead of "re-roll saves" issue. It gives the more recent books an even bigger edge over older ones because their rules are written to be more flexible. If you change the Longshot rules to "+6" range if the unit hasn't made a move in the same turn," it simplifies it and removes the unnecessary confusion and complication from having to shoot the same weapons at two different ranges in the same turn. And if they're scared to go that way because it could be a balance issue with the Anvils command ability... plenty of tournaments were already allowing the 30" shots in the hero phase, and Stormcast was still rocking a 45% win rate. Unless the points get lowered to the point that a Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber battalion can be played in a 2k list, I don't think improving our rules a little bit is going to ruin the delicate balance of the metagame. Edited December 17, 2019 by l1censetochill 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarRotke Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Marzillius said: with 30 points left over a triumph is highly likely as well what's a triumph? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said: what's a triumph? In a matched play game, if your list costs less than your opponent's then you have access to a triumph reroll. It's once a game for one unit, can be on hits, wounds and run/charge rolls if I remember correctly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, l1censetochill said: I wouldn't argue with you that it's the correct way to implement the rules as they're written - no movement phase, so no way to fulfill the condition. On that we agree. I do think, however, that the Longshot rules themselves are poorly written and overly restrictive compared to newer iterations of the same idea, and should have been changed to read similarly to how things are now being written. In our book, it's "add 6" to the range of the unit's weapons if it didn't make a move in the movement phase of the same turn." In Cities of Sigmar, lots of their ranged units have bonus abilities that involve not moving - like the Irondrake's Blaze Away, which just gives a bonus if the unit "has not made a move in the same turn." Handgunners, Eternal Guard, etc. also have similar wording. It's like the "re-roll failed saves" instead of "re-roll saves" issue. It gives the more recent books an even bigger edge over older ones because their rules are written to be more flexible. If you change the Longshot rules to "+6" range if the unit hasn't made a move in the same turn," it simplifies it and removes the unnecessary confusion and complication from having to shoot the same weapons at two different ranges in the same turn. My working theory is that they changed the wording of the rule from the previous SCE battletome in order to reduce the number of lines in that text section by 1, so that it would fit on the page, thinking that it would be clear and not open to interpretation. In short, they took out a few words to save space on the page thinking it wouldn't be a big deal. Anyway, I'm just glad that we don't have to have this debate anymore, honestly. Now that it's in the FAQ, we can just point to that and not have to go into lengthy back and forth explanations on why we think it works a certain way. Quote And if they're scared to go that way because it could be a balance issue with the Anvils command ability... plenty of tournaments were already allowing the 30" shots in the hero phase, and Stormcast was still rocking a 45% win rate. Unless the points get lowered to the point that a Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber battalion can be played in a 2k list, I don't think improving our rules a little bit is going to ruin the delicate balance of the metagame. Lately I'm thinking that it's bad for the game for such outliers to exist while the rest of the tome/army/stormhosts are in such a sorry state. If they are going to fix the win ratio, I'd rather they do it in a smarter and more comprehensive way than allowing a few "broken" combos to slip through the cracks for people to exploit and take advantage of. The reason why I feel this way is that I believe it gives non-SCE players a very bad impression of SCE and the people who play them. I know that some people don't really care about "feelings," and so this is a non-issue to them.... Anyway, it seems like lately every tome that comes out has 1 sub-army within their book that is considerably stronger than the others in the same book. DoK have Hagg'nar as an example. For SCE, it's Anvils. I noticed this even happens in 40k. It's like there's usually one army that stands out as a super-obvious choice and the rest are just kinda narratively cool or maybe strong if you build a really specific list towards it. I wonder if there's some internal design philosophy guiding that sort of thing or whether it's just accidental and internally they think everything is balanced pretty well, and then just get shocked and surprised when the players find strong combos.... .............................. Also.... on the subject of Hurricane Raptors, the same logic should apply - they wouldn't get the bonus shots in the hero phase. However, Scions or teleports are fine as this counts as a set-up move, which is covered in the core rules as not having moved, but prevents you from making a normal move in the movement phase. I suspect they didn't mention hurricane raptors because nobody is asking about that and it isn't a dominant strategy in tournaments. If I'm going to go to the trouble of building a shooting list out of the Anvils ability, I wouldn't bother picking the weaker one unless I was trying to tailor a list specifically towards a really weird edge-case horde opponent that I was trying to get rid of. And even then, there's probably better ways to do that.... Edited December 17, 2019 by Mark Williams 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Krungharr Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 The Longstrike Raptors in a Living City army would still be good, as they can outflank from any board edge and still have plenty of range. Of course not a SCE army but I love Living City for shooty guys (good for Irondrakes too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 I don't think Longstrikes are worth their points without the ability to shoot twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, crkhobbit said: I don't think Longstrikes are worth their points without the ability to shoot twice. Clearly I'd rather take 10 SoTW for 160. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Maturin said: Clearly I'd rather take 10 SoTW for 160. What does SoTW stand for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, Mark Williams said: What does SoTW stand for? Sisters of the watch. 160/10 models. 1 attack 3+3+ does a MW on 6 to wound. if they did't move they gain +1 attack in the shooting phase. 18" range. Can overwatch once a turn if an enemy units ends up up to 3" from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, crkhobbit said: I don't think Longstrikes are worth their points without the ability to shoot twice. Unsure if this is serious or sarcasm.... I think it's more a tactical flexibility thing. Yes there may be other things that are more efficient, but the longstrikes are a "scalpel" rather than a sword. The way I see it is that they allow you "dig out" heroes that are hiding behind a wall or troops, or to reach across the board and zap something that you otherwise don't want to travel to because it's in a place that you don't want to be. The ability to add this to your toolbox unfortunately comes with a bit of a points tax that probably makes the unit cost a bit more than it's damage output compared to some other types of units. Edited December 17, 2019 by Mark Williams typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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