AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Lightomancer]

19 hours ago, The World Tree said:

Liberators really need staunch defender and to count for 2 on an objective.

It would be interesting to have some sort of table for this like:

- Non-heroes count their wounds characteristics to a max of 3 per model;

- Heroes count their wounds characteristics to a max of 6;

- Warmachines as  4 points max (not sure if steamtanks would actually be more and the KO zeplins)

- Monsters count on a Wounds taken to points table: the more wonded the less it could count on its own to an objective.

- Heroes on Behemoths go to the same points table as above to a minimum of 6 points;

 

On a draw roll bravery against bravery. This is just an excuse to make use of it and any modifiers tricks.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Lightomancer
Ambiguous sentence: Wounds vs Wounds Characteristics

[The World Tree]

That seems overcomplicated to me.

Personally I would not have it as a universal rule. For Ogors, it makes sense that the beasts count as ten. For me, though, I'd have stormcast heroes count as 5. To reflect the heroism of the army. Plus all stormcast = 2.

[Mark Williams]

Given the new rule for chaos warriors, it seems wrong that liberators don’t get a group bonus to their shields as well.

[Turragor]

I feel like Id be happy to have either  rr 1s without a min model count or rr all saves with min 10. Like I don't prefer either because of how I take libs now (3 *5).

However, warriors don't need shields for the reroll. They get the 5++ mw save with shields. 

So being able to take 2 hand weapons and get a save rr is quite strong in terms of variety. 

They also get 1 extra bravery and bonuses for being marked, a banner bearer and musician for bravery and run and charge bonuses, and +1 to hit or +1 ranged (or rend 1) with weapon choices. 

So all in all, I'm not upset or annoyed about libs but they could sure use a spicing up. 

I'd venture that if you give them bravery 7 and then flat 3+ 3+ hit and wound that's enough. 

Then I'd work in a difference between hammer and swords. Maybe +1 rend v 6s are two wounds (like mortek guard). 

Warriors would still be better (minus deepstrike) but itd feel more like flavours of base elite warrior rather than a clearly inferior liberator scroll. 

One side effect which would be thematic is that we might see sc lists like the ossiarch lists - composed of mostly battleline. 

And any lib containing battalions would be boosted. 

[Lucur]

But Liberators won't get new models, so they won't get good rules.

I usually refrain from that kind of sarcasm, but it's what sprang to mind first...

[Turragor]

1 hour ago, Lucur said:

But Liberators won't get new models, so they won't get good rules.

I usually refrain from that kind of sarcasm, but it's what sprang to mind first...

Don't need new models, rules boosts boost existing model sales. 

[AverageBoss]

Liberators are also on 40mm bases vs Warriors 32mm. Something else to consider.

But yes, Liberators have been bad since the last 3rd of 1st edition. The only thing that held them up there was Vanguard Wing. However there are plenty of people that have insisted they are fine and that its just every battleline in all the modern tomes being OP thats the problem, not Libs being too weak.

[The World Tree]

1 hour ago, Lucur said:

But Liberators won't get new models, so they won't get good rules.

I usually refrain from that kind of sarcasm, but it's what sprang to mind first...

This is not how it works... 

Chaos Warriors and Knights are by far not the strongest units in the new Slaves book, for example...

[Lucur]

I should have put more emphasis on the word SARCASM it seems ^^ i was mostly kidding.

Liberators do need some boost, compensation for horde boni, banners and musicians and the disadvantage of 40mm bases. That's not new though, I just think the Chaos Warrior warscroll made that quite objectively clear.

[Skreech Verminking]

I’m not sure though.

If we compared both of those warcsrolls with the minimum amount of models to each other, while ignoring the allegiance ability, I actually think that both of them are somewhat ok.

sure the chaos warriors may have A 5+ mortal wounds save, but wound save but won’t be able to To reroll any save.

it’s great for some stuff but can be a problematic against other things.

Comparing the weapon profile of each other, I guess you could call the warriors a winner although, we do have to keep in mind that the liberators still have the option to a great hammer, combined with the primes extra attack, those attacks will pretty surely hurt  a lot.

as for a comparison between those units, when their allegiance abilities are active is something I cannot really compare, since I haven’t had the change to listen to any kind of review.

 

[jhamslam]

Liberators need to be 3 wounds a piece.

 

As it stands ,there are 32 mm base models with 2 wounds now with a 2'' weapon reach. Liberators are on 40s for gods sake. Every other model in the game on a 40 is a minimum of 3 wounds (and even more sometimes), but SCE battleline isnt. giving them 3 wounds a piece would still only make them somewhat average

[Mjolnertf]

I just played a game against the new ironjawz and they got over me like never before, I mean ... are we really so bad at the current meta? That +1 damage is deadly against an army that saves 4+ on average and that their units are 10 miniatures (us).
the damage 2 of the crossbows it does? kill 12 orcs? congratulations ... now you will have in your mouth 6 gruntas or 12 brutes ...

Has anyone survived against things like this (ironjawz or ogres)?

[Maturin]

2 minutes ago, Mjolnertf said:

I just played a game against the new ironjawz and they got over me like never before, I mean ... are we really so bad at the current meta? That +1 damage is deadly against an army that saves 4+ on average and that their units are 10 miniatures (us).
the damage 2 of the crossbows it does? kill 12 orcs? congratulations ... now you will have in your mouth 6 gruntas or 12 brutes ...

Has anyone survived against things like this (ironjawz or ogres)?

I did, using Hallowheart ;). Against an IJ army, as a SCE you got to screen hard, using aetherwings or you're screwed. We've got nothing able to withstand a T1 charge of 6 or more GG and a Maw Crusha.

[Mjolnertf]

is that since we are an army of units of 5/10 miniatures and average salvation of 4 + .... neither goals can you keep.

by the way this was my list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Tempest Lords
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Bonds of Noble Duty
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Artefact: Patrician's Helm
- Spell: Lightning Blast

Battleline
10 x Sequitors (260)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)
- 4x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Everblaze Comet (100)
Dais Arcanum (30)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
 

[l1censetochill]

8 minutes ago, Mjolnertf said:

I just played a game against the new ironjawz and they got over me like never before, I mean ... are we really so bad at the current meta? That +1 damage is deadly against an army that saves 4+ on average and that their units are 10 miniatures (us).
the damage 2 of the crossbows it does? kill 12 orcs? congratulations ... now you will have in your mouth 6 gruntas or 12 brutes ...

Has anyone survived against things like this (ironjawz or ogres)?

I haven't played against either of those armies (though I expect I'll be playing against ogres in the very near future), but my take is pretty much the same as what Maturin said - outside of very specific lists (specifically Anvilstrike) you're going to have a hard time dealing with those types of fighty armies. None of our anvils can hold up against a serious charge from Ironjawz or Ogres, and outside of a couple specific units (buffed Evocators, mainly) our melee options are either slow, pillow-fisted, or both.

Against those armies, I think we've basically only got two options - either go full Anvilstrike and screen with Aetherwings to try and weather the early storm, or load up on Ballistas and an Ordinator for an airstrike and hope you spike your rolls against their key units. Neither option sounds particularly fun, but it's pretty much the only way we stand a chance from what I can tell.

[l1censetochill]

32 minutes ago, Maturin said:

I did, using Hallowheart ;). Against an IJ army, as a SCE you got to screen hard, using aetherwings or you're screwed. We've got nothing able to withstand a T1 charge of 6 or more GG and a Maw Crusha.

Just out of curiosity, what does your Hallowheart list look like? I've been considering branching into it from SCE, but I'm not 100% sure on where to start (outside of probably including a Lord-Arcanum and Sequitors in the list to fill points until I can get enough models painted).

[Mjolnertf]

the truth that having one of the largest books in the game is a shame that we have limited ourselves to 1 way of dealing with the garbage that gw creates, although it is true that when we have renovation we will be the broken ones and the others will lose, I have 6 Vanguards raptors and I will not buy more fear of the nerf that we will suffer in the form of points rise or worse.

[Maturin]

1 hour ago, l1censetochill said:

Just out of curiosity, what does your Hallowheart list look like? I've been considering branching into it from SCE, but I'm not 100% sure on where to start (outside of probably including a Lord-Arcanum and Sequitors in the list to fill points until I can get enough models painted).

I knew I was going to play an IJ, I was certain that he would finish deploying first (and he did) so I couldn't play SCE, at first I wanted to do a monster list ( LCoSD+ Celestant Prime) but my libs on the table would have been destroyed T1 and I would have been left with nothing to score.

So I decided I needed a strong infantry to withstand the incoming charge. We played at 1500 points so I needed only 2 battlelines, and only on 4 squares because the remaining 2 were used by the GW store were in. I took :

Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- General
- Trait: Veteran of the Blazing Crusade
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Warding Brand (Hallowheart Wizard)
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Roaming Wildfire
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Elemental Cyclone (Hallowheart Wizard)
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Ignite Weapons
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
- Mortal Realm: Chamon
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Roaming Wildfire (Hallowheart Wizard)
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Sear Wounds
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
20 x Phoenix Guard (320)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
20 x Sisters of the Watch (320)
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Purple Sun of Shyish (50)
Soulscream Bridge (80)

Total: 1480 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 81


First turn he moved 6 gore guntas and his Maw Cabbage just right next to my PG castle. He shot one of the 10man units of handgunners with the MC spit, killed some, charged into my PG which trigerred overwatch from all my remaining HG and SoTW. I did only 3 wounds on overwatch ( I only shot with 10 of my sisters, don't ask me why and I also forgot that since they didn't move, they doubled their number of attacks). He stupidly decided to put all the MW and some attacks in my HG instead of PG. Since he destroyed one unit of HG he activated the gore guntas in the PG. I lost 7 PG in total this phase and 20 HG.
My turn, my magic wrecks his goreguntas and MC. I raise 6 PG! Phenix gets the gore guntas to only two model left, and MC to 3 wounds left. I finish him at shooting.

I win priority, cast the spell bridge, but beside that my magic phase does nothing since I was too far to blasthim with my spells. Movement phase, I move the SoTW and mages using the spell bridge, just at 9" from his remaining two warchanters and 2 5man brutes. My PG dn't use the bridge but run towards the 3 gore guntas camping on left objective. I shoot the 2 warchanters off the table and reduce the brutes to only 3 left for both unit.

He decided to give up, since I would have totally wiped him off the board at the following round. Hallowheart is very strong, but depending on what you bring, it's also very not good at  capturing objectives. If you bring shadow warriors it's fine, otherwise ... You got to get lucky on the scenario table. But it is really powerful if you tailor it and don't face a hard counter.

[AverageBoss]

The real problem is that many of the SC warscrolls have not had any significant changes since they were first conceived. For the warrior and extremis releases, this is early 0 edition, and for Vanguard its early 1st edition.

They were written to operate under a completely different game state, and have not had the adequate upgrades to join the modern game. SC are not the only ones with this problem (its also something Legions deals with, which is why they have so many units you never see on the table), but SC are probably the largest offender.

Edited December 10, 2019 by AverageBoss

[Styr]

Hello

i just finish building evocators on drakes from new battleforce box , and i fall in love to those models . Is there any playable list to field them ?

[l1censetochill]

30 minutes ago, Styr said:

Hello

i just finish building evocators on drakes from new battleforce box , and i fall in love to those models . Is there any playable list to field them ?

I'm a big fan of the Dracoline models as well, and while armies including them generally aren't viewed as particularly competitive there are a few lists floating around that seem like they're at least fun to play. I'm currently building toward the following:

*****

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Single-minded Fury
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Knight-Heraldor (100)

Battleline
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)
- 4x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104

*****

The Celestial Vindicators allegiance ability (re-roll 1s to hit on the charge) and command ability (give a unit +1 attack), when combined with the Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline's command ability (+1 attack for Dracoline mounts) and Pride Leader trait (+1 to hit for Dracoline mounts) can turn the Dracolines into absolute murder machines... and at that price, they'd better be.

While I haven't played the list yet, I'm sure it ain't perfect. It'll still struggle on objectives due to low model count, the Dracolines will still probably get tied up by chaff at the worst times (though hopefully the Ballistas can whittle down some units), and it still probably can't compete against the top tier armies out there. But it looks like a pretty fun list to play, and you can be reasonably certain that once or twice per game your Dracolines will make the charge and completely mulch an enemy unit, which is always a good time.

If you end up going with a similar list, I'd love to hear how it performs! I'm still 3 Dracolines away from being able to run it, but I'm excited to get it on the table.

Edited December 10, 2019 by l1censetochill

[rockmanko]

5 hours ago, l1censetochill said:

I'm a big fan of the Dracoline models as well, and while armies including them generally aren't viewed as particularly competitive there are a few lists floating around that seem like they're at least fun to play. I'm currently building toward the following:

*****

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Single-minded Fury
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Knight-Heraldor (100)

Battleline
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)
- 4x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104

*****

The Celestial Vindicators allegiance ability (re-roll 1s to hit on the charge) and command ability (give a unit +1 attack), when combined with the Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline's command ability (+1 attack for Dracoline mounts) and Pride Leader trait (+1 to hit for Dracoline mounts) can turn the Dracolines into absolute murder machines... and at that price, they'd better be.

While I haven't played the list yet, I'm sure it ain't perfect. It'll still struggle on objectives due to low model count, the Dracolines will still probably get tied up by chaff at the worst times (though hopefully the Ballistas can whittle down some units), and it still probably can't compete against the top tier armies out there. But it looks like a pretty fun list to play, and you can be reasonably certain that once or twice per game your Dracolines will make the charge and completely mulch an enemy unit, which is always a good time.

If you end up going with a similar list, I'd love to hear how it performs! I'm still 3 Dracolines away from being able to run it, but I'm excited to get it on the table.

I am also a new battleforce stormcast player, and I am thinking my list as below:

 

total 1990/2000

not yet test the list (still building & painting) but already a few question/options on my mind

(1) Only 3 heroes ? add a Knight-Incantor maybe?

(2) More shooting? swap Evocators on foot for one more Vanguard-Raptors

(3)  swao Hurricane instead of all 3 Longstrike, point replace by  Aetherwings/Command Point 

 

Appreciate for your input/advise!

[Lord Krungharr]

Now see that makes me want the Christmas box set!

[Lucur]

I run a list with 6 cats regularly, my experience is they die if they don't blast their target(s) on the charge. Thus i never leave home without Castellant and Chronomantic Cogs. The Heraldor is great for run and charge threat, getting out of unfavorable engagements or just renew the charge bonus. He often makes back his points in mortal wounds alone.

From there i want two things: a) Shooting to bypass screens and kill support characters. I tried Hurricanes and Ballistae, the lack of range and/or rend/mw makes me want to try 6 Longstrikes next year.

And b) objective grabbing/ chaff. This is where multiple Hurricane units seem better than Longstrikes, to enable Aetherwings in more places.

I also tried Sequitors as MSU or big blob, neither performed well, considering the price tag. Which is a shame. At least they make good use of Heraldor and Castellant when the cats are too far gone or dead. They might work out if their points drop back down.

[CommissarRotke]

15 hours ago, rockmanko said:

(1) Only 3 heroes ? add a Knight-Incantor maybe?

You really need at least one K.I for the auto-dispel feature. you should also have some aetherwings to screen for the longstrikes. Unfortunately... this would be easiest by replacing the Sequitors with liberators