AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Maturin]

1 hour ago, Raffonerd said:

LIberators and Judicators are standalone totally fine.

The problems is that they have no discount on low number (20) and no sinergy wth the army.

They're trash. Look at what other battletomes have. Let's say COS for ex : SotW are the same cost as judicators but have more shots when immobile and can dish out MW.

[Raffonerd]

26 minutes ago, Maturin said:

They're trash. Look at what other battletomes have. Let's say COS for ex : SotW are the same cost as judicators but have more shots when immobile and can dish out MW.

Not at all. First you need prince, second they shoot at 18, save 5+, no rend. The problem is just ruling (tome rules). Cities of sigmar bline are more or less the same in terms of stats as lib and judicators.

[Maturin]

Just now, Raffonerd said:

Not at all. First you need prince, second they shoot at 18, save 5+, no rend. The problem is just ruling (tome rules). Cities of sigmar bline are more or less the same in terms of stats as lib and judicators.

They're really more effective. Look at the Assassin general + Shadow warriors.

[Raffonerd]

1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said:

Hey guys, is there any goodList for 1000 points stormcast without longstrikes? Have an upcoming Event. Thought about sonething Sequitor and Evocators oriented? And List you suggest? 

Last time we won a 2v2 with SCE + Wanderers.

I suggest something like:

Evocators 10, castellant, heraldor (staunch def + gryph feather charm), 2x5 lib, 3 prosecutors javelin, cp.

Lord arcanum gryph, gavriel, 20 sequitors, 5 sequitors, cp, soulsnare shackles.

[PJetski]

2 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

in terms of tournament win rate if we consult AoS stats compile by Honest Wargamer

This is a terrible way to judge the state of the game. Stormcast (and Seraphon) are much better than the stats show. The stats should not be taken as objective truth - collected data is not the same thing as a fact.

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

16 minutes ago, PJetski said:

This is a terrible way to judge the state of the game. Stormcast (and Seraphon) are much better than the stats show. The stats should not be taken as objective truth - collected data is not the same thing as a fact.

If collected data from hundreds of, if not thousands of, results across multiple countries are not suitable for drawing conclusion, then what would be? 

[Marcvs]

11 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

If collected data from hundreds of, if not thousands of, results across multiple countries are not suitable for drawing conclusion, then what would be? 

Also, if the overall win ratio should be taken with a pinch of salt (lots of new players -like me- starting with SCE), their far-from-great performance at the top is surely a good indication of the state of the game. Either you conclude that good players do not play with SCE, or that they are not that competitive. Being new around here I am totally open to different conclusions though.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Marcvs

[PJetski]

9 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

If collected data from hundreds of, if not thousands of, results across multiple countries are not suitable for drawing conclusion, then what would be? 

You can't draw meaningful conclusions from an incredibly biased and small sample size like this, and you should not extrapolate the collected data to the entire game as a whole.

I'm not suggesting I have an alternative... I am just saying you should really take any conclusions from The Honest Wargamer with a HUGE grain of salt. They can be a useful data point, but their stats alone don't tell the whole picture.

I think Stormcast need a new battletome because most of our units are using 1.0 warscrolls and our allegiance abilities were already out of date when they were released, but that doesn't mean we can't go 5-0 in a tournament setting.

[Lucur]

The thing is, it's really hard to rate the faction and not a specific list. It's certain units and synergies that work and not the army as a whole. Take Anvils out of the SCE book and arguably top tables will see no more Stormcast. There are other lists that are viable amd fun, for sure, they just lack the consistency.

Considering the previous talk about our battleline options, they're all pretty crappy. The issue is in the base size. We will never have as many models and thus as much power in a certain space, as, say, Skaven do. We have limited access to 2" weapons on top. We don't get horde bonus, neither banners or musicians. That should be taken into account for every single model, but it isn't. And thus the hordes out there will always be more powerful and/ or better at scoring. And scoring is what wins the game in the end.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Lucur
typo

[Talas]

As a relatively new player, I'm also struggling to win. We have a small 1250 point local tournament going on (one game per week), and I'm currently sitting at 0-3 being either basically destroyed or just not having enough bodies to score objectives because the other army keeps summoning stuff. I still like the SCE and I know I need to get better with it, but right now it's getting close to being autolose for me.

I mean, one of the games was in Ulgu against Khorne and then we roll the characteristic that made the maximum range of attacks or spells 18". I go first and then the other guy gets a double turn... I almost ragequitted right there. Just seating there watching how my army gets erased by Bloodthirsters is not fun.

[schwabbele]

2 hours ago, Talas said:

erased by Bloodthirsters is not fun.

If they bring monsters in 1250 point games, you can bring 3/4 ballistas and a lord ordinator, and castle up and shoot them to pieces. Remember a game has 5 turns not only one. But in general be prepared for many more losses as long as you don't agree with your opponent on a certain level of balancing. Good side of this is , it really makes you think more about the game and it's "inner" workings then the 0815 cooky cutter rofl stomp list, and will make you a better general in the long run.

[Kelsicle]

Stormcast really struggle at lower point games due to the cost of units. Many of the buffs/synergies come from heroes and it’s hard to fit them in at lower points.

[Mark Williams]

On the subject of how Stormcast are doing in the meta, and the relationship between the Tournament stats, I think that the tournament stats are reflective of how the army is doing as a whole.

On the whole, generically speaking, Stormcast are a middling-at-best army, a 2/5 tourney army with 3/5 if you are a good general.

Then you have a handful of outliers that can do a lot better - these are what PJetski is talking about. I don't count these when discussing the faction as a whole.

Your average guy picking up the army for the first time, and having not much prior wargaming experience, is on average going to lose most of his SCE games for a long, long time, until they key into the small handful of best combos available. Some people will take longer than others to find the right combos and learn to use them.

This is what accounts for the poor tournament statistics. If you understand where they are coming from, the statistics make sense and are perfectly applicable.

Our book is mostly bad, and the base army is pretty weak. There's a few good gems amongst the plain rocks.

Disclaimer: This doesn't mean I don't like the army. I love my army and will continue playing Stormcast. I'm just being pragmatic about where we stand. Other armies have a lot more advantages than we do, and a lot of games are just simply uphill battles. I'm throwing out the handful of outlier SCE armies that are the exception. We know about those - we know they do well. I feel those should be a separate discussion.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Mark Williams

[Lord Krungharr]

I have just started assembling my Stormcast army after being a dedicated Chaos player for all of my game history, and then just finishing my first Destruction army with the Gitz (got one game in so far with them).  I chose to go with Vanguard Stormcast, as I built a Clan Eshin for a movement shenanigans, ninja-strike type army, but wow they were so boring and disappointing because of limited unit types, and terrible saves and bravery....so sold off Eshin.

I do think Stormcast are a definitely more of a skill army, not a point and click army (like Tyrants of Blood Khorne or Goregristle FEC).  I have over a 50% win ratio with all of my using-Chaos games, most of which are tournaments, but have NEVER won vs Stormcast.  It's been quite frustrating actually, so I hopped on the band wagon!

The Liberators are good when used in that Stormhost where a REDEEMER unit can be brought back full strength on like a 5+ after it's wiped out.  I think Sequitors are also a candidate there.  That's pretty darn strong I'd say, and Sequitors with their choice of powering up shields or weapons every turn is really good!  Liberators backed by a Lord Castellant are solid, if not boring.

Aetherwings are fun for absorbing charges by pesky enemy units that you just don't want to be in combat with that turn (like say, a Keeper of Secrets.....or three   )

These are things I've fought against and seen them do, so while they may not be super duper top tier all the time, they certainly seem to be able to hold their own with a good general.  I look forward to playing the Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber, which just exactly fits into 2000 points.  No wizardry at all but with a swift alpha strike and many deployment and movement options I think I could snipe out hero support early on and then bob'n'weave.

Not yet sure which Stormhost (if any) I'll go with.  Gotta review the Command Traits available; not too worried about relics as I'll be able to take 4 total with the Auxiliary Chamber super battalion.  There's the Stormhost with the CA that lets you pile in and attack, or shoot, in the hero phase.  That's a good one.  There's also that one which lets some units within 12" of the general have a pregame movement like Night Runners.  That's very useful for early objective grabbing sometimes.

I'm thinking the Knight Azyros with a Tempest Lantern is useful.  The Knight Zephyros could have the Sword of Judgement.  The Knight Venator, not sure yet, nor on the Lord Aquilor.

Can the Lord Aquilor have a Command Trait AND a Mount Trait AND a relic?

[Milano]

@Lord Krungharr take the Luckstone for the Venator and yes Aquilor can have a command trait, mount trait and relic. Let me know how the full Vanguard Chamber performs? 😃 played with the same idea, but the prob was the auxiliary battalion feature affecting only “Non-Heroes”. Also 3 seperate units for the raptor hurricanes (cant squeeze in longstrike), just why GW?! Bye bye Anvils Stormhost. Invested those battalion points eventually  in a knight-incantor + meteor and IDK eels allies, also nasty 😅

[firtahl]

20 hours ago, PJetski said:

You can't draw meaningful conclusions from an incredibly biased and small sample size like this, and you should not extrapolate the collected data to the entire game as a whole.

I'm not suggesting I have an alternative... I am just saying you should really take any conclusions from The Honest Wargamer with a HUGE grain of salt. They can be a useful data point, but their stats alone don't tell the whole picture.

I think Stormcast need a new battletome because most of our units are using 1.0 warscrolls and our allegiance abilities were already out of date when they were released, but that doesn't mean we can't go 5-0 in a tournament setting.

It's hard to find anything meaningful in this argument, just broad and sweeping opinions masquerading as facts. "Incredibly biased and small sample size" is a great example. What about it is bias? What about their data-set do you think qualifies it as being small...which is another way of asking what you consider a robust data-set to be. The site is pretty up front with what comprises their data-set. In this case I see 55 tournaments since July, and there are multiple games recorded in each meeting. Were talking an average attendee rate of 40-50 people playing 5-6 games each. That's thousands of data points. If you think that's not an adequate sample size of games then I question your ability to make that assessment. 

Your argument of bias could hold water if you provided even a modicum of effort to actually make the case. The most basic one is sampling bias, where we only see the stats at a very competitive level for a very specific number of matches. He doesn't track stats for all the multitude of smaller tournaments that run 3 games. If you cared to make that argument, you would be correct. However, it does not mean that the conclusions one draws from THW's number are false. Saying that the conclusion is false because the argument is false is itself a fallacy called an Argument From Fallacy. Indeed, we cant actually say that in aggregate the stats for smaller tournaments is any different than the stats for larger ones.

 

"Their stats alone don't tell the whole picture". This could have been a great place to elaborate on what it is they aren't telling us. The discussion here seems to suggest that, in general, the win rate for STE is lower than people expected. This is borne out by the stats on THW where STE is in the 45% win rate grouping which is in the lower tiers compared to armies like khorne, skaven, or slaanesh. That doesn't mean its God's honest truth that STE don't win >50%, but finding multiple places all telling you the same thing lends that narrative some measure of credibility. Look outside this forum if you are afraid of an echo chamber of people complaining they don't win 100% of the time. Do you see people in the slaanesh forum complaining they don't win, that they are under powered? No, the opposite. And guess what? This is borne out in THW's stats also. Its even borne out in your third paragraph where you talk about changes they need.

Last, on the comment "that doesn't mean we can't go 5-0 in a tournament setting". Accepting the numbers posted on THW is not incompatible with this statement. They have STE in 2nd and 3rd place which means we likely have cases where STE did go 5-0 or 4-1. Its not about being able to go 5-0, its about the average case where out of 230 STE players in the data-set we only see 5 in the top 3. Compare that to 153 slaanesh players getting to the top 3 34 times. That's pretty stark and probably says more about the issues with slaanesh than any perceived issues with STE, but I don't think anyone here should take that "with a HUGE grain of salt."

[Uffe]

Hey

Since i dont enjoy the longstrike list im in to Gavbombing!

Played a tourny not long ago. went 3-2, lost two tight games vs slaanesh 3 keepers and skaven stormfiends.
I made some errors since i had 0 games with SCE before.

But SCE was lots of fun so decided to take them to another tourny and try again with a similar list.

Lord Arcanum
Lord Castellant
Gavriel
Lord-Relictor
20 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
10 Evocators
3 Hurricane Crossbows
3 Hurricane Crossbows
Extra command point

Playstyle, deep in Hurricanes, blow up the screens so Evocators can charge what they want. Buff the Sequitors and port them in to action.
Rest of the list are for objectives 😃

Tested one game so far and it was effective, lets se how it goes.
 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Uffe

[Bigscaryflorister]

On 11/29/2019 at 12:36 PM, Uffe said:

Hey

Since i dont enjoy the longstrike list im in to Gavbombing!

Played a tourny not long ago. went 3-2, lost two tight games vs slaanesh 3 keepers and skaven stormfiends.
I made some errors since i had 0 games with SCE before.

But SCE was lots of fun so decided to take them to another tourny and try again with a similar list.

Lord Arcanum
Lord Castellant
Gavriel
Lord-Relictor
20 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
10 Evocators
3 Hurricane Crossbows
3 Hurricane Crossbows
Extra command point

Playstyle, deep in Hurricanes, blow up the screens so Evocators can charge what they want. Buff the Sequitors and port them in to action.
Rest of the list are for objectives 😃

Tested one game so far and it was effective, lets se how it goes.
 

That’s an interesting list man! Did you run Stormhost or artefacts? Some aetherwings in there would be great, just cos 🤷‍♂️

[Bigscaryflorister]

11 minutes ago, Bigscaryflorister said:

That’s an interesting list man! Did you run Stormhost or artefacts? Some aetherwings in there would be great, just cos 🤷‍♂️

Stupid question, never use named boys... anyhoo.. aetherwings are free if you drop the msu seqs for trusty (🥺) libs! 

[Uffe]

10 hours ago, Bigscaryflorister said:

That’s an interesting list man! Did you run Stormhost or artefacts? Some aetherwings in there would be great, just cos 🤷‍♂️

Hammers of sigmar.
You could use Libs and take a unit of Aetherwings. I dont because i find Libs lacking. 5 Sequitors can atleast guard vs some uints.
Its not that important to guard the hurricanes since they have another role then longstrikes. They will be frontline.
A matter of taste i guess.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Uffe

[Evantas]

On 11/29/2019 at 8:36 PM, Uffe said:

Hey

Since i dont enjoy the longstrike list im in to Gavbombing!

Played a tourny not long ago. went 3-2, lost two tight games vs slaanesh 3 keepers and skaven stormfiends.
I made some errors since i had 0 games with SCE before.

But SCE was lots of fun so decided to take them to another tourny and try again with a similar list.

Lord Arcanum
Lord Castellant
Gavriel
Lord-Relictor
20 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
10 Evocators
3 Hurricane Crossbows
3 Hurricane Crossbows
Extra command point

Playstyle, deep in Hurricanes, blow up the screens so Evocators can charge what they want. Buff the Sequitors and port them in to action.
Rest of the list are for objectives 😃

Tested one game so far and it was effective, lets se how it goes.
 

My minor tweak would be switching the 5-man sequitors to liberators, and upgrading the arcanum to a gryph charger for mobility. That way u have an option for him to run up to heal / staunch defender the hurricanes as necessary. 

[AdamR]

3 hours ago, Evantas said:

My minor tweak would be switching the 5-man sequitors to liberators, and upgrading the arcanum to a gryph charger for mobility. That way u have an option for him to run up to heal / staunch defender the hurricanes as necessary. 

Can't Staunch Defender as he's using Hammers of Sigmar stormhost rules for Gavriel Sureheart.

I would however agree with the Gryph Charger Arcanum. Better command ability, better spell, and good for emergency objective grabbing with Ride the Winds.

[Kramer]

Hi all,

my current ogor project will consume my painting time this month but I’m already planning my next project. I have blightwars and soul wars box lying around (+1 knight incantor) To differentiate from my other armies I’m considering building it into a magic focussed force.

not a tournament army but a friendly list. Any pointers? Units and models I must have?

my idea would be a defensive sacrosanct part with some vanguard movement shenanigans and some mixed shooting to support that. 

[AdamR]

9 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Hi all,

my current ogor project will consume my painting time this month but I’m already planning my next project. I have blightwars and soul wars box lying around (+1 knight incantor) To differentiate from my other armies I’m considering building it into a magic focussed force.

not a tournament army but a friendly list. Any pointers? Units and models I must have?

my idea would be a defensive sacrosanct part with some vanguard movement shenanigans and some mixed shooting to support that. 

If you have Blight War and Soul Wars, maybe build around a Soulstrike Brotherhood battalion? You'd just need another 5 hunters and 1 castigator.

[Lucur]

If you want to go magic heavy, i'd say build a grand convocation and take some endless spells. SCE spell lores are lacking imo. From there you can stick to sacrosanct for theme or add cheaper Liberators for the points, a big block of Evocators is always a good core and a credible threat.

Vanguard movement shenanigans are pretty much limited to Palladors (which aren't super efficient at killing things), Gryphhounds who are obscenely overpriced and Aetherwings in combination with Raptors.