AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Corcaedus]

So ladies and gents, i come bearer of news. 

My friend picked up the Ossiarch Bonereapers battletome, and I feel like it's bad News to us. 

Even if they are even less mobile then we are, their sheer resilience is problematic, even facing double shot longstrike raptors. 

 

For you all, what's the feeling you have after this latest addition to the Death Roster ?

Edited November 11, 2019 by Corcaedus

[Mark Williams]

3 hours ago, Corcaedus said:

So ladies and gents, i come bearer of news. 

My friend picked up the Ossiarch Bonereapers battletome, and I feel like it's bad News to us. 

Even if they are even less mobile then we are, their sheer resilience is problematic, even facing double shot longstrike raptors. 

 

For you all, what's the feeling you have after this latest addition to the Death Roster ?

As always I just look at new tomes coming out and I think the Stormcast could really use some similar abilities. I sincerely don't think an army-wide 3+ save is out of the question at this point. Perhaps doing away with stuff like the Castellant or the aura command ability, and just giving the entire army a +1 save boost. I think that would go a long way towards making us viable against armies that can continuously bring models back onto the table.

[Corcaedus]

11 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

As always I just look at new tomes coming out and I think the Stormcast could really use some similar abilities. I sincerely don't think an army-wide 3+ save is out of the question at this point. Perhaps doing away with stuff like the Castellant or the aura command ability, and just giving the entire army a +1 save boost. I think that would go a long way towards making us viable against armies that can continuously bring models back onto the table.

I think an army wide 3+ save is not necessary, because it would come with a point increase that we really don't need as of now. 

Some of our elite infantry units deserves it (seriously, how comes paladins don't have a 3+ save ? 

Another thing that is bothering (to me at least), is that we are nearly defenseless against all these fight first/fight twice/fight last shenanigans. Someone earlier on the thread said that it a left the feeling  that our battletome was not written by the same people who wrote Slaanesh and co. 

And the point cost of some units. How come the Celestant Prime costs nearly as much as some of the biggest character out there, can hit like a truck, but dies to a stiff breeze ? I can't ask for a huge buff, but he's supposed to have been forged by Sigmar to be his ultimate creation... and it falls short to expectations. In the same way, our troops needs the same rule the Ogors have : 1 miniatures count as two when it comes to objectives.

 

But as of now, this is all wishlisting. 

[l1censetochill]

9 hours ago, Corcaedus said:

I think an army wide 3+ save is not necessary, because it would come with a point increase that we really don't need as of now. 

Some of our elite infantry units deserves it (seriously, how comes paladins don't have a 3+ save ? 

Another thing that is bothering (to me at least), is that we are nearly defenseless against all these fight first/fight twice/fight last shenanigans. Someone earlier on the thread said that it a left the feeling  that our battletome was not written by the same people who wrote Slaanesh and co. 

And the point cost of some units. How come the Celestant Prime costs nearly as much as some of the biggest character out there, can hit like a truck, but dies to a stiff breeze ? I can't ask for a huge buff, but he's supposed to have been forged by Sigmar to be his ultimate creation... and it falls short to expectations. In the same way, our troops needs the same rule the Ogors have : 1 miniatures count as two when it comes to objectives.

 

But as of now, this is all wishlisting. 

I'm assuming the thinking is that just giving an army-wide 3+ save, or else giving one Stormhost a +1 blanket save like the Bonereapers have, but leaving the points the same, would be sufficient to fix some of our biggest problems. And I agree with that - 4+ saves are everywhere now. But if the points go up as well, then yeah, we're still in trouble. Just putting 3+ saves on Paladins would be a welcome change, though. Might not make enough of a difference to make them truly competitive, but you'd probably be tempted to take them in some lists if their points stayed the same.

While we're at it, they really need to update our Warscrolls to allow us to re-roll all hits/wounds/saves instead of re-rolling failed hits/wounds/saves. Not only because it makes us weaker to rend than a lot of other armies, but purely as a quality of life improvement. It's just so dumb and tiresome to have to explain to newer/more casual players that "oh, so modifiers apply after the roll, so actually even though you can re-roll your failed saves, you can't re-roll that failed save, because it's only a failure due my -1 Rend." The rule is stupid to begin with, in addition to making everyone look at you like you're that guy.

I've actually given a good deal of thought to how our rules could be changed to help us on objectives, and while I think the Ogor ability is a good one, I'm against copy-pasting it on principle. Armies should have distinct identities. I had thought that maybe, given our lore, the following allegiance ability would serve the same purpose and be flavorful:

To The Last Man: When determining who controls an objective, objectives which are currently held by a Stormcast army cannot change hands as long as there are any Stormcast models from that army within 6" of the objective.

Not 100% sure on the wording, but basically when you take an objective, that objective is yours until every model in the unit(s) holding it is wiped out. Doesn't help you take objectives your opponent is holding, but once you've got one you're a pain in the ass to take off. It mitigates some of the weaknesses caused by being elite, and I feel like it works with the big, tanky defenders of the Realms thing we've got going on. It might be too powerful, though, especially when paired with our deepstrikes... at the very least, it would force opponents to play differently against us. Thoughts?

[chord]

On 11/11/2019 at 11:45 AM, Corcaedus said:

So ladies and gents, i come bearer of news. 

My friend picked up the Ossiarch Bonereapers battletome, and I feel like it's bad News to us. 

Even if they are even less mobile then we are, their sheer resilience is problematic, even facing double shot longstrike raptors. 

 

For you all, what's the feeling you have after this latest addition to the Death Roster ?

Same thing I always feel...our battletome was written to appease all the  stormcast haters out there.    

[EngraBlackSword]

Hello guys! I might need some advice here.

I'm thinking about playing an Anvils typical list (9Ls, EV, x2INC...) in a local tournament. The thing is that there's another stormcast player who runs 4BAL + Ordinator list and I think I might have trouble with him.

 How should I face this match? Should I wait till he drop his listas to drop my LS or should I try something else?

Thank you!

[Naprapaten]

9,1" bubble around longstrikes so listas cant get the 18" shot when dropped is your best bet

[Corcaedus]

9 hours ago, Naprapaten said:

9,1" bubble around longstrikes so listas cant get the 18" shot when dropped is your best bet

That, and if you are willing to  do so @EngraBlackSword, the lantern artifact which forces your opponent to reroll 6's to hit has proven useful to me in this kind of situation. Not ultimate, but it could help that fatal shot of ballista to go somewhere else than your raptor's faces.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Corcaedus

[Lightomancer]

17 hours ago, l1censetochill said:

I'm assuming the thinking is that just giving an army-wide 3+ save, or else giving one Stormhost a +1 blanket save like the Bonereapers have, but leaving the points the same, would be sufficient to fix some of our biggest problems. And I agree with that - 4+ saves are everywhere now. But if the points go up as well, then yeah, we're still in trouble. Just putting 3+ saves on Paladins would be a welcome change, though. Might not make enough of a difference to make them truly competitive, but you'd probably be tempted to take them in some lists if their points stayed the same.

While we're at it, they really need to update our Warscrolls to allow us to re-roll all hits/wounds/saves instead of re-rolling failed hits/wounds/saves. Not only because it makes us weaker to rend than a lot of other armies, but purely as a quality of life improvement. It's just so dumb and tiresome to have to explain to newer/more casual players that "oh, so modifiers apply after the roll, so actually even though you can re-roll your failed saves, you can't re-roll that failed save, because it's only a failure due my -1 Rend." The rule is stupid to begin with, in addition to making everyone look at you like you're that guy.

I've actually given a good deal of thought to how our rules could be changed to help us on objectives, and while I think the Ogor ability is a good one, I'm against copy-pasting it on principle. Armies should have distinct identities. I had thought that maybe, given our lore, the following allegiance ability would serve the same purpose and be flavorful:

To The Last Man: When determining who controls an objective, objectives which are currently held by a Stormcast army cannot change hands as long as there are any Stormcast models from that army within 6" of the objective.

Not 100% sure on the wording, but basically when you take an objective, that objective is yours until every model in the unit(s) holding it is wiped out. Doesn't help you take objectives your opponent is holding, but once you've got one you're a pain in the ass to take off. It mitigates some of the weaknesses caused by being elite, and I feel like it works with the big, tanky defenders of the Realms thing we've got going on. It might be too powerful, though, especially when paired with our deepstrikes... at the very least, it would force opponents to play differently against us. Thoughts?

The first time I heard the podcast about how GW comes up with the rules I really like how they attempted to make the rules resemble the books and the model in some way, that being said I agree with some existing ones and really dislike others.

Palladins for me are ok with a +4 save they don't have shields, are infantry and I think the 3 wounds better describe how they can take a punch before hammering someone, also they are supposed to be the hammer not the anvil. What I don't like is the points cost and battalions that make no sense right now, and their rend should be at least -2 base for all and 3 attacks (at least). This means they are slow, not durable and hurt like hell if they get close.

Another thing for stormcasts, I havent read yet a book where Stormcast turn tail and flee, and I think the battleshock system should be reworked. We should have a very high bravery IMO.

I like the To The Last Man standing rule but I would make it a command trait or battalion. Stormhosts vary a lot, some are super tactical some are more on the Zealot side and I would put this rule in one of those. It will also make choices more interesting depending on the army list you build. 

About the Celestant Prime, I think he should start with a flat 5 attacks, thats 15 possible damage if you put him on the table turn 1. Bearer of the Warhammer: 14" Immune to battleshock bubble. If this model is slain all STC units in the bubble take a battleshock immediately.  Fury of the Storm: For the first turn of a combat this model and all Order wholly in 9" reroll 1s to hit. Lastly a +5 w and mw save.  It looks overpowered in a way but every time I read that he is weak I just remember the first book where he shows up and kills 3 GUOs in less than 5 minutes...

 

The main thing I see that GW did very well about Stormcast his how at the end of a battle almost every model is dead like in the books..

Edited November 13, 2019 by Lightomancer

[Corcaedus]

2 hours ago, Lightomancer said:

The main thing I see that GW did very well about Stormcast his how at the end of a battle almost every model is dead like in the books..

This hits wayy to close to home. I personnaly never finished a game with more than 10 guys on the board. 

I see Stormcasts more as enduring warriors able to withstand terrible blows before giving back what they received. 

On the other hand, I started making calculations on Longstrikes vs Ossiarchs. This is gonna be a hard pain train. 

[jhamslam]

10 hours ago, Lightomancer said:

 

The main thing I see that GW did very well about Stormcast his how at the end of a battle almost every model is dead like in the books..

This is actually lore friendly. Like SCE go balls to the wall with winning pyrrhic victories, calling lightning strikes on their own positions , because they arent afraid of dying because theyll simply get reforged.

How in the hell does our army take Battleshock while some rats who are famous for being craven have huge bravery immune bubbles is beyond me.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by jhamslam

[jhamslam]

On 11/12/2019 at 12:18 PM, l1censetochill said:

 

To The Last Man: When determining who controls an objective, objectives which are currently held by a Stormcast army cannot change hands as long as there are any Stormcast models from that army within 6" of the objective.

 

Make this Stormcast REDEEMER units only. Other than game balance, Its an incentive to invest in our ****** liberator battle-line.,

[Evantas]

On Friday, November 08, 2019 at 9:56 PM, Townsie said:

The next list I'll be playing is this:

Dracolines Meeting Engagements
Hammers of Sigmar

Spearhead
Lord-arcanum on Dracoline: 220pts
  General
    Celestial Blades
    Pride Leader
Evocators on dracolines x3: 300pts

Main Body
Knight-Questor: 100pts
Sequitors x10: 260pts

Rearguard
Celestar Ballista: 110pts

Total: 990pts

In most scenarios, the spearhead deploys first, so having two units in the spearhead allows you to deepstrike the Knight-Questor and the Sequitors in the main body next. So that's the plan - I'll post a little AAR when I get this on the table.

Hi, been thinking of running something similar for ME, except with a heraldor instead of questor, and venator instead of ballosta. 

How did it go and what did u play against?

[Townsie]

8 hours ago, Evantas said:

Hi, been thinking of running something similar for ME, except with a heraldor instead of questor, and venator instead of ballosta. 

How did it go and what did u play against?

I'm playing against a Sylvaneth army over lunch at work. We made it thorugh setup and two turns yesterday. My buddy is playing Drycha, tree lord dude, twenty dryads, and a branchwraith.

We're playing the "rearguard action" scenario (hur hur), and I went first, which meant I placed my spearhead down, getting the first objective majority with the Dracolines. I elected to put my entire main body in reserve to deep strike and hopefully one-shot Drycha next turn.

Drycha killed off almost the entire unit of Evocators in Dracolines. The tree lord finished them off. The dryads charged my Lord Arcanum, but he broke all three of his spirit flasks, and killed off half that unit, with two wounds left.

My next turn is coming up where I hopefully get to deep strike ten sequitors and the Knight-Questor, which hopefully spells the end of Drycha. She just puts out too many mortal wounds, too easily if she's at zero wounds.

I think the heraldor would work real well here too - in meeting engagements you're often close to terrain because of the smaller tables. As for the rear guard, I tend to default to a ballista, because I know that I usually can get some shots off. When I play Beasts of Chaos, I often run fast units in the rear guard, just to maybe snag that last objective. What's your thinking with the Venator?

[chord]

I have yet to play meeting engagements but am a big fan of the Knight Venator , large threat bubble and 6 shots, plus can take an artifact if you want.   And elevated to help see over stuff. 

[Evantas]

22 hours ago, Townsie said:

I think the heraldor would work real well here too - in meeting engagements you're often close to terrain because of the smaller tables. As for the rear guard, I tend to default to a ballista, because I know that I usually can get some shots off. When I play Beasts of Chaos, I often run fast units in the rear guard, just to maybe snag that last objective. What's your thinking with the Venator?

Venator seems more reliable and consistent vs a single ballista, and is more mobile as well. 

He's probably the weak link though. I'm considering other ranged options like Way Watcher but fitting the last 120pts is tough. 

Anyway ME plays very differently from std 2000 pts, so I think we are still trying to work out the meta I think. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Evantas

[Townsie]

3 hours ago, Evantas said:

Venator seems more reliable and consistent vs a single ballista, and is more mobile as well. 

He's probably the weak link though. I'm considering other ranged options like Way Watcher but fitting the last 120pts is tough. 

Anyway ME plays very differently from std 2000 pts, so I think we are still trying to work out the meta I think. 

You're probably right about more reliable. I just spent two command points to ensure my Sequitors and Knight-Questor made the charge to hit Drycha, after deep strike. Didn't have any to spare for the ballista - which of course whiffed its shots.

Something that's interesting with ME is that you can play on really small sized tables, and the ranges on the shooting units havn't changed, of course. So it's a lot easier to get a shooty army online to fire early in the game.

[Xeperi]

Every now and then the Venator will pull off that Star-Fated Arrow shot too.  I one-shotted a Vampire Lord last Meeting Engagement with him.  He had the Ethereal Amulet for 3+ unrendable but I went for it since I had no better target.  Hit, wounded, failed his save, max damage, bad deathless minions roll, dead.  He had other heroes but that probably won me the game.

[Turragor]

2 lists tested* last 2 weekends. Thought I'd share for those who are interested.

LizardCast

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders

Drakesworn Templar (460)
- General
- Arc Hammer
- Trait: Staunch Defender
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Storm Lance
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged

Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Lightning Blast

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandblades

LIZARDS
6 x Desolators (600)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Dais Arcanum (30)
Malevolent Maelstrom (10)

 

Test - small 3 game 1 day tourney.

Result - 1 Major win, 2 minor losses.

 

I kinda liked this but I wasnt sold on 2 drakesworn and desolators (on paper the idea was neat).

 

StarStormHeroCast

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Celestant-Prime (340)
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (560)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Trait: Staunch Defender
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Tempest Axe
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Exorcist (120)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Everblaze Comet (100)

Test - 1 whole entire practice game (against a good player with that Skaventide 9 stormfiend,  40 plague monks & bell list)

Result - Major win

 

...

 

However the way it FELT to play the lists, the 2nd won out and I'm taking it to the big Stockholm tournament next weekend (98 players with some very interesting lists).

I predict ... best bet 3 wins. Likely result 2 wins. If I get unlucky in any way, a win

But support heroes gathering to buff units BETTER BEWARE (this is quite effective right now).

*testing may or may not include actual testing and is completely non-scientific.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Turragor

[schwabbele]

10 hours ago, Turragor said:

2 lists tested*

I like your out of the box thinking. Please report your tourney experience, especially your opponents facial expressions when the dice gods are with you and you nuke their heroes of the board turn 1 😆

[PJetski]

I really like the Drakesworn Templar with Desolators to give them +1 hit, especially if you're playing Astral Templars to get another +1 hit against MONSTERS to make Dracoth breath hit on 2+... I just wish the Templar wasn't 460 points

[Turragor]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

I really like the Drakesworn Templar with Desolators to give them +1 hit, especially if you're playing Astral Templars to get another +1 hit against MONSTERS to make Dracoth breath hit on 2+... I just wish the Templar wasn't 460 points

Both drakes are a bit expensive given what some other armies have access to yes. They do have some really nice tools though. I think they are tough scrolls to balance out.

Best idea would be to figure out when they are "too cheap", like if 9 out of 10 SC armies have 1, 5 out of 10 have 2. Or if SC ally armies include 1 like they now include Gotrek - or something like that. Or work from the cost of the battalions.

Alternatively, you could keep their price but have it so that they open up some battleline options or other army building fun when they are generals.

[jhamslam]

21 hours ago, Turragor said:

Both drakes are a bit expensive given what some other armies have access to yes. They do have some really nice tools though. I think they are tough scrolls to balance out.

Best idea would be to figure out when they are "too cheap", like if 9 out of 10 SC armies have 1, 5 out of 10 have 2. Or if SC ally armies include 1 like they now include Gotrek - or something like that. Or work from the cost of the battalions.

Alternatively, you could keep their price but have it so that they open up some battleline options or other army building fun when they are generals.

Its not that hard to balance. Given how a Keeper Of Secrets is 340 (same as a celestant prime) or how an AGKoTG is 420, id say 380 or 400 is about fair for a Drakesworn Templar, since it doesnt have access to 14 wounds or Casting. 

Like somebody actually thought the Keeper with its locus and entire host of abilities was worth 340, so yeah.....

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

Typical power creep, as can be expexted from GW's tendency during last few years including 40K and AoS. 

Just a year and a few months ago, people rightly appalled at the 200 points 5-man Evocator unit.

Nowadays even large Evocator unit struggle to make its points back with prevalence of expendable screening units and "Always Strikes First" abilities.

After spending last four years playing both 40K and AoS, I simply gave up hopes of GW freeing itself from the vicious cycle of power creep. I instead focus on painting models while having hiatus. Maybe I will start playing again when the new battletome is released.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[chord]

On 11/16/2019 at 1:41 AM, Xeperi said:

Every now and then the Venator will pull off that Star-Fated Arrow shot too.  I one-shotted a Vampire Lord last Meeting Engagement with him.  He had the Ethereal Amulet for 3+ unrendable but I went for it since I had no better target.  Hit, wounded, failed his save, max damage, bad deathless minions roll, dead.  He had other heroes but that probably won me the game.

Give him the luckstone and watch your opponents tread way more carefully regarding the Venator.