AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Raffonerd]

14 hours ago, PJetski said:

Nah Gavriel lists became obsolete long before GHB2019, even before the Fight First meta, and even before AOS 2.0.

Turn 1 charge lists have always been easy to counter with just some basic positioning. If you play against people that know how to screen against the deep strike charge and keep key units back for a counterattack then your list quickly falls apart and fails to do anything.

I don't understand your point. September GT in london best stormcast was using Gavriel.

The thing is, if you play gavriel like an idiot (brain dead first turn charge) for sure you lose. It's not FEC or slanesh that goes straight on and kills everything.

You have to focus on objectives, shoot on screen, and in case double charge with descend + gavriel -> traslocation + pennant next turn to relocate again and charge.

 

First rule to remember, use brain not dices. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Raffonerd

[Hodges]

So Anvilstrike is obviously all the rage and has been for quite a while. I was wanting to make my own version of the list, and after some tinkering this is what ive come up with. Interested to hear thoughts.

Lord Relictor - General, Translocation

Knight Azyros -  Soulthief

3 x 5 Liberators

9 Raptor Longstrikes

9 Raptor Hurricanes

6 x 3 Aetherwings

2 x 10 Shadow Warriors 

Extra CP

2000 points. 

 

From what I can tell, the 9 Longstrikes and a Relictor are the core of the standard list, everything else is flexible. So the thinking behind this is I want to try and play a stronger scenario game than most Anvil lists do. I have 15 drops, so I will be able to see exactly where everything is going before deciding on anything important. I also have enough drops to put anything I want into the sky. I envision the Longstrikes starting on the board to double tap, with the Hurricanes up high. Hurricanes can pop down anywhere to obliterate a screen (also solid for dealing with Gotrek). Everything in the list is fast and can quickly adapt to shifting objectives. Shadow Warriors seem like the perfect compliment to Anvilstrike too - pop up on objectives, help finish off things nearly killed by Raptors. Deep striking the Hurricanes down behind a screen of Shadow Warriors will also help to keep them alive. 

Im a little unsure on so many Aetherwings but want to try it out. So many fast small units should be a pain to deal with. Can also quite easily mess with big screens by charging either end of the line, annoyance game plan basically. Help to protect the Raptors along with the Shadow Warriors. 

The negatives of my list I think are pretty obvious - there's zero melee threat and very few characters. If I lose the heroes, I lose the option to double shoot - which is obviously a big issue. The lack of a melee threat might be mitigated by the lists ability to shoot and stall, will test and see. If the Hurricane Raptors disappoint, they can be swapped out for 10 Evocs instead.

Thoughts on the list? Reckon it can work?

[Serpico]

I brought my LCoSD out for a spin for the first time against Ironjawz this week and he got bogged down by two Brute squads, then a third got thrown at him. He was eating through them but too slowly (I rolled all 1s and 2s every turn for Rain of Stars). I ended up scooting a Relictor up to Translocate him out of combat but by then it was too late, I lost on objectives. 

 

How should I be using him? Which units should be kept close to him? I threw him out on a flank on his own; that’s clearly not the answer, at least against IJ.

[Raffonerd]

2 hours ago, Hodges said:

So Anvilstrike is obviously all the rage and has been for quite a while. I was wanting to make my own version of the list, and after some tinkering this is what ive come up with. Interested to hear thoughts.

Lord Relictor - General, Translocation

Knight Azyros -  Soulthief

3 x 5 Liberators

9 Raptor Longstrikes

9 Raptor Hurricanes

6 x 3 Aetherwings

2 x 10 Shadow Warriors 

Extra CP

2000 points. 

 

From what I can tell, the 9 Longstrikes and a Relictor are the core of the standard list, everything else is flexible. So the thinking behind this is I want to try and play a stronger scenario game than most Anvil lists do. I have 15 drops, so I will be able to see exactly where everything is going before deciding on anything important. I also have enough drops to put anything I want into the sky. I envision the Longstrikes starting on the board to double tap, with the Hurricanes up high. Hurricanes can pop down anywhere to obliterate a screen (also solid for dealing with Gotrek). Everything in the list is fast and can quickly adapt to shifting objectives. Shadow Warriors seem like the perfect compliment to Anvilstrike too - pop up on objectives, help finish off things nearly killed by Raptors. Deep striking the Hurricanes down behind a screen of Shadow Warriors will also help to keep them alive. 

Im a little unsure on so many Aetherwings but want to try it out. So many fast small units should be a pain to deal with. Can also quite easily mess with big screens by charging either end of the line, annoyance game plan basically. Help to protect the Raptors along with the Shadow Warriors. 

The negatives of my list I think are pretty obvious - there's zero melee threat and very few characters. If I lose the heroes, I lose the option to double shoot - which is obviously a big issue. The lack of a melee threat might be mitigated by the lists ability to shoot and stall, will test and see. If the Hurricane Raptors disappoint, they can be swapped out for 10 Evocs instead.

Thoughts on the list? Reckon it can work?

clearly it wont work. Try this against sylvaneth and you will see.

[Hodges]

Can you explain why? What is it that Sylvaneth are doing that auto beats this?

[XReN]

9 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

clearly it wont work. Try this against sylvaneth and you will see.

I don't think it's that easy to counter with Sylvaneth, the amount of woods they can set up is limited by terrain set-up and deployment, they will also have to take 1st turn to protect themselves therefor making it possible for shootcast double turn, with THAT many birds they also won't be able to touch Shootcast in melee for a whille, at the same time multiple reserve deployments would mess with Sylvaneth's ability to place new woods even more.

[Lucur]

8 minutes ago, Hodges said:

Can you explain why? What is it that Sylvaneth are doing that auto beats this?

Sylvaneth set up wildwoods and wildwoods block line of sight. Also Sylvaneth can teleport around their woods.

Your list doesn't have any credible CC threat, if you can't shoot because of dense terrain or wood shenanigans, you have nothing to keep your opponent honest. That's why most Anvilstrike lists run a full squad of Evocators. If you're not hurt for the hobby money and time, go ahead and try it out if you think it's cool. Noone else does it doesn't mean it can't work

[Hodges]

Ah okay gotcha, yeah the no LOS would be a pain for sure. Can be mitigated somewhat through my own port ability, but you are right about the lists limitation without a melee threat. I was working on a build that incorporated Desolators for the dual threat - solid enough shooting that you would CP it if needed, while bringing a real tank element to the table. Might work on that angle instead. 

[FattBooM666]

23 hours ago, PJetski said:

Nah Gavriel lists became obsolete long before GHB2019, even before the Fight First meta, and even before AOS 2.0.

Turn 1 charge lists have always been easy to counter with just some basic positioning. If you play against people that know how to screen against the deep strike charge and keep key units back for a counterattack then your list quickly falls apart and fails to do anything.

I played it last tournament even though I went 2-3 it was only one game vs a khorne that wrecked me (I wasn't allowed to deep strike that turn) other two I lost was vs another khorne  and a Slaanesh. Went down to priority roll or I would have went 4-1 if I won both

I went an expensive army.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals -

Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar

Leaders Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger(220) - General - Trait: We Cannot Fail  - Spell: Azyrite Halo - Mount Trait: Wind Runner Lord-

Relictor (100) - Artefact: God-forged Blade  - Prayer: Translocation Gavriel

Sureheart (120)

Battleline

20 x Sequitors (440) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields - 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces

5 x Sequitors (130) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces

5 x Sequitors (130) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces Units

10 x Evocators (440) - 10x Grandstaves - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

10 x Decimators (360)

Total: 1990 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 137

 

First game a seraphon took 1st, summoned units, sniped my relictor, screened up.  I was on terrain that gave me 1x CP with general so I had +9 on my t1. I still got a great engage. Won 13-12 score 

2nd game vs Nagash and several reapers, big bubbles around nagash and a screen so I cant flank.  Gives me turn, I was like ok.. let's see if I get azyrite halo and teleport of on my 5man seq. And I went in hard with 10 decimators first with massive X attacks with 2" reach. Did a small 2man train with evocators. Smashed the reavers and reapers. Nagash flees summons more reapers. We come to t4 and out of time. I won by 14-13 points. 

 

3rd game vs khorne (not allowed to drop) big turtle game nothing happening until t3. Big loss.

4th vs another khorne. Skarbrand  BT, skull reapers and so on. Gives me 1st turn I just get inside the objectives get 3 points. And dont drop. He thought I was to smash wall, he is forced to move up for points. He leaves a small gap of his screen. I drop 20 seq to skarbrand left side to bait him/sacrifice. And at the area he has a gap I go in hard with evocators on bloodthirster Fury and decimators on bloodwarriors. So I manage to snipe BT he piled skarbrand vs 20xseq. Kills almost the whole unit and is locked his t2. Roll off for t3 he wins it. Several activations, skarbrand kills everything. I'f I won roll my game

last vs slaanesh he wrecked everything, so I was to go for secondary. He killed my 20x seq I managed to get them back on a 5+!!! 

I teleported then 9" on one of his objectives, I am holding 3/4 if you controll all 4 t3 you win. I had 3 and at 4th I had 5 seq and arcanum. Vs 5 chaos warriors and a bit further away a keeper. So if I win priority t3 I could have taken last and actually won. But he won It and had like 90 depravity, mass summons and he won. (Was great opponent and game) 

but it's an old style with many counters against... 

I've seen one list that has done pretty good. 

 

[Marzillius]

3 hours ago, Hodges said:

Ah okay gotcha, yeah the no LOS would be a pain for sure. Can be mitigated somewhat through my own port ability, but you are right about the lists limitation without a melee threat. I was working on a build that incorporated Desolators for the dual threat - solid enough shooting that you would CP it if needed, while bringing a real tank element to the table. Might work on that angle instead. 

Check out my list on the previous page, it has a similiar idea going on. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it.

[Mark Williams]

5 hours ago, Hodges said:

Ah okay gotcha, yeah the no LOS would be a pain for sure. Can be mitigated somewhat through my own port ability, but you are right about the lists limitation without a melee threat. I was working on a build that incorporated Desolators for the dual threat - solid enough shooting that you would CP it if needed, while bringing a real tank element to the table. Might work on that angle instead. 

I've played a similar list off and on over the past year. The main issue I've found with all shooting lists is that it is very difficult to reach out and grab (and hold) objectives with it. You're banking on being able to wipe the enemy mostly off the board by turn 3, so that you have enough turns left to capture the objectives and gather enough points up to win the game by turn 5. Additionally, because you aren't fighting twice per round like other melee armies, you are relying on doing all of that damage in a single turn, which can get extremely tricky. The army has a bunch of disadvantages that are difficult to overcome. The Anvil's list works well because you can shoot twice with 1 unit in the same turn, but that doesn't apply to the rest of your shooting units, which means if you get double turned, pretty much everything will get over-run by a fast melee-focused army.

I actually have a lot of vested interest in these sorts of shooting armies, and I want them to do well, but based on the last tournament I went to where I took a similar army, I found it to be quite mediocre and to have some really tough "auto-lose" type matches.

Beware of armies that can do some sort of area of effect "bomb" type spell (endless spells like everblaze comet or geminids of ulgu). Some of those spells can completely wreck you in a couple of turns.

I've also had serious trouble with armies that can summon new units onto the board - seraphon, slaanesh, and sometimes FEC have all given me grief due to the fact that I spend the whole game shooting fodder trying to get them off of objectives only to have them pop back the next turn and keep crowding me into a small corner of the board that I can't seem to get out of. I actually had seraphon i a sigle turn once pretty much zone me completely out of the entire board on turn one with skink spam, and I've seen Slaanesh occasionally do a similar version of that too. 

I wouldn't give up on the idea, just simply try it a few times and get a feel for the weaknesses and strengths of it.

Also, as to the Sylvaneth comment. I actually haven't found Sylvaneth to be much of a problem for this particular brand of shooting, due to the fact that you can drop hurricane raptors from the sky into a good position, regardless of how they set up. With Sylvaneth, if you can knock out the right targets early on, their army gets significantly weaker. The trick is simply to set up multiple lanes of fire so that they can't LOS one unit without exposing themselves to another.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Mark Williams

[Raffonerd]

13 hours ago, FattBooM666 said:

I played it last tournament even though I went 2-3 it was only one game vs a khorne that wrecked me (I wasn't allowed to deep strike that turn) other two I lost was vs another khorne  and a Slaanesh. Went down to priority roll or I would have went 4-1 if I won both

I went an expensive army.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals -

Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar

Leaders Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger(220) - General - Trait: We Cannot Fail  - Spell: Azyrite Halo - Mount Trait: Wind Runner Lord-

Relictor (100) - Artefact: God-forged Blade  - Prayer: Translocation Gavriel

Sureheart (120)

Battleline

20 x Sequitors (440) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields - 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces

5 x Sequitors (130) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces

5 x Sequitors (130) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields - 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces Units

10 x Evocators (440) - 10x Grandstaves - Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

10 x Decimators (360)

Total: 1990 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 137

 

First game a seraphon took 1st, summoned units, sniped my relictor, screened up.  I was on terrain that gave me 1x CP with general so I had +9 on my t1. I still got a great engage. Won 13-12 score 

2nd game vs Nagash and several reapers, big bubbles around nagash and a screen so I cant flank.  Gives me turn, I was like ok.. let's see if I get azyrite halo and teleport of on my 5man seq. And I went in hard with 10 decimators first with massive X attacks with 2" reach. Did a small 2man train with evocators. Smashed the reavers and reapers. Nagash flees summons more reapers. We come to t4 and out of time. I won by 14-13 points. 

 

3rd game vs khorne (not allowed to drop) big turtle game nothing happening until t3. Big loss.

4th vs another khorne. Skarbrand  BT, skull reapers and so on. Gives me 1st turn I just get inside the objectives get 3 points. And dont drop. He thought I was to smash wall, he is forced to move up for points. He leaves a small gap of his screen. I drop 20 seq to skarbrand left side to bait him/sacrifice. And at the area he has a gap I go in hard with evocators on bloodthirster Fury and decimators on bloodwarriors. So I manage to snipe BT he piled skarbrand vs 20xseq. Kills almost the whole unit and is locked his t2. Roll off for t3 he wins it. Several activations, skarbrand kills everything. I'f I won roll my game

last vs slaanesh he wrecked everything, so I was to go for secondary. He killed my 20x seq I managed to get them back on a 5+!!! 

I teleported then 9" on one of his objectives, I am holding 3/4 if you controll all 4 t3 you win. I had 3 and at 4th I had 5 seq and arcanum. Vs 5 chaos warriors and a bit further away a keeper. So if I win priority t3 I could have taken last and actually won. But he won It and had like 90 depravity, mass summons and he won. (Was great opponent and game) 

but it's an old style with many counters against... 

I've seen one list that has done pretty good. 

 

The list is solid for sure. 

The thing is that you have only melee units, so imao you would drop decimators for more buffing/mobility stuff. Castellant & Vexillor in order to stay to the full melee list. Last point you could add prosecutors with javelin: 3x1 or 3x2.

The other option is to grap some shooting stuff: 3x2 hurricane bows. This hallow to slow charge move of slanesh/korne, screen units, weak monsters (lower down stats on table). 

Let me know if you test these options, because I love this kind of list and I would play it myself.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Raffonerd

[CommissarRotke]

On 10/17/2019 at 10:29 AM, Hodges said:

Ah okay gotcha, yeah the no LOS would be a pain for sure. Can be mitigated somewhat through my own port ability, but you are right about the lists limitation without a melee threat. I was working on a build that incorporated Desolators for the dual threat - solid enough shooting that you would CP it if needed, while bringing a real tank element to the table. Might work on that angle instead. 

In this case, you could replace the Shadow Warriors (and maybe 2-3 aetherwings) with melee; either screens or actual units.

[FattBooM666]

13 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

The list is solid for sure. 

The thing is that you have only melee units, so imao you would drop decimators for more buffing/mobility stuff. Castellant & Vexillor in order to stay to the full melee list. Last point you could add prosecutors with javelin: 3x1 or 3x2.

The other option is to grap some shooting stuff: 3x2 hurricane bows. This hallow to slow charge move of slanesh/korne, screen units, weak monsters (lower down stats on table). 

Let me know if you test these options, because I love this kind of list and I would play it myself.

Yep I agree I need some sort of shooting to clear chaff it pressure monsters. 

 

But one idea I had was having this list, se picture:

 

Prosecutors have 3d6 charge if 12" away. Can fly, shoot chaff, add +6" with Gav. 

Reroll charge with vexilor.

So give +1 armor prosecutor, teleport jump above screen and hunt heroes. Rr1s armor, 

Charge evocators, leave a 40mm base. Charge azyros, fly inside and give 6++ with 9" bubble. 

Or easy chaff, throw javelins, Raptors shots. 

Idk just some brainstorming 😊

[LordCelestant Imperius 1st]

Hi ladies and guys,

What is the current thinking of the celestial hurricanum plz ? At 280 pts (with wizard), a lot cheaper than before CoS..... there is something we can do, right ? 

(Yes, i own the model and ... yes, want to field it)

Thanks fellow storm men. 

[Maturin]

Misread. Erased post.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Maturin

[FattBooM666]

1 hour ago, FattBooM666 said:

Yep I agree I need some sort of shooting to clear chaff it pressure monsters. 

 

But one idea I had was having this list, se picture:

 

Prosecutors have 3d6 charge if 12" away. Can fly, shoot chaff, add +6" with Gav. 

Reroll charge with vexilor.

So give +1 armor prosecutor, teleport jump above screen and hunt heroes. Rr1s armor, 

Charge evocators, leave a 40mm base. Charge azyros, fly inside and give 6++ with 9" bubble. 

Or easy chaff, throw javelins, Raptors shots. 

Idk just some brainstorming 😊

This one is pretty good against a lot, except FEC and slaanesh. 

[Hodges]

On 10/18/2019 at 2:29 AM, Marzillius said:

Check out my list on the previous page, it has a similiar idea going on. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it.

Had a look, it looks pretty decent. Ive been trying to fit Desolators alongside Longstrikes rather than Hurricanes, but I think your build looks good. My gut says it would work better alongside Longstrikes though, they have the ability to pick off the things that can kill the Desolators, allowing them to run the table. As is, I would try get the Azyros in, the Desolators and Hurricanes both really like it given they hit on 4s. 

[Hodges]

Fiddling around with the Anvils stuff, has anyone tried Gotrek in the list?

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Relictor (100)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Artefact: Soulthief
- Prayer: Translocation
Gotrek Gurnisson (520)
- Allies

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Aetherwings (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 90
 

Expensive for sure, but I think the list supports him pretty well. Gives you a piece that can sit on an objective and murder anything that comes near. In return the list can snipe out things that can really threaten him. Not sure how he holds up compared to a unit of 10 Evocs plus 3 Aetherwings, keen to hear how he has gone for SCE players.

 Im pretty keen to try out a few min units of Hurricane Raptors though. With the Longstrikes as the CA target, splitting up the 9 Hurricanes across three units gets 18 more shots that get +1 to hit. And also gives a lot more flexibility to drop around the board - a unit of 9 dropping in is a big target, 3 units scattered around is harder to deal with. 

Thoughts?

[l1censetochill]

16 hours ago, LordCelestant Imperius 1st said:

Hi ladies and guys,

What is the current thinking of the celestial hurricanum plz ? At 280 pts (with wizard), a lot cheaper than before CoS..... there is something we can do, right ? 

(Yes, i own the model and ... yes, want to field it)

Thanks fellow storm men. 

For its cost, I feel like the Hurricanum doesn't do much in an SCE army - we don't get the casting bonus (not Collegiate Arcane) nor do we get the bonus to hit (only applies to Cities of Sigmar keyword, and our units only get the keyword in a Cities army). So it's basically a 280 pt single-cast wizard, albeit with the very good Storm of Shemtek ability... and given that we've already got very good ranged options (Longstrikes, Hurricanes, Ballistae) I don't think it adds much.

It's a cool model, though, and I've definitely included it in a lot of the Hallowheart lists I've put together - that City is also a good fit for Stormcast (especially Lords-Arcanum) due to the bonuses to cast helping cast Everblaze Comet and charging Prime Electrids, so if you've already got the Hurricanum model I'd probably consider going in that direction.

[Maturin]

7 minutes ago, l1censetochill said:

For its cost, I feel like the Hurricanum doesn't do much in an SCE army - we don't get the casting bonus (not Collegiate Arcane) nor do we get the bonus to hit (only applies to Cities of Sigmar keyword, and our units only get the keyword in a Cities army). So it's basically a 280 pt single-cast wizard, albeit with the very good Storm of Shemtek ability... and given that we've already got very good ranged options (Longstrikes, Hurricanes, Ballistae) I don't think it adds much.

It's a cool model, though, and I've definitely included it in a lot of the Hallowheart lists I've put together - that City is also a good fit for Stormcast (especially Lords-Arcanum) due to the bonuses to cast helping cast Everblaze Comet and charging Prime Electrids, so if you've already got the Hurricanum model I'd probably consider going in that direction.

Woulsn't he be able to take GA Order Hurricanum for 360 points thus giving effectively +1 to hit to SCE units ?

[l1censetochill]

47 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Woulsn't he be able to take GA Order Hurricanum for 360 points thus giving effectively +1 to hit to SCE units ?

Pretty sure he can't; the Cities book specifically states, "Units updated October 2019; the profiles printed here take precedence over any profiles with an earlier publication date or no publication date," meaning that the new Warscroll is the only one that can be used for a Celestial Hurricanum.

And even if the old warscroll were useable, it's not as if any SCE armies were paying 360 for the old Hurricanum either. It's just way too expensive for what it does. If I wanted to use a Hurricanum (and I totally do, the model is awesome!), the only way I think it's going to be viable is in a Cities army, where you can take advantage of all of its keyworded abilities.

[Maturin]

2 minutes ago, l1censetochill said:

Pretty sure he can't; the Cities book specifically states, "Units updated October 2019; the profiles printed here take precedence over any profiles with an earlier publication date or no publication date," meaning that the new Warscroll is the only one that can be used for a Celestial Hurricanum.

And even if the old warscroll were useable, it's not as if any SCE armies were paying 360 for the old Hurricanum either. It's just way too expensive for what it does. If I wanted to use a Hurricanum (and I totally do, the model is awesome!), the only way I think it's going to be viable is in a Cities army, where you can take advantage of all of its keyworded abilities.

Yet, you can still build such an order army in the Warscroll Builder o_O

[l1censetochill]

1 hour ago, Maturin said:

Yet, you can still build such an order army in the Warscroll Builder o_O

Can you? That's weird - I'm on the website right now, and regardless of my allegiance (Order, SCE, Cities) I only see the 220/280 point Celestial Hurricanum (with/without the Battlemage). Obviously you can put the Hurricanum itself in any Order army that it can be allied into, but I'm not seeing the 300/360 point version anywhere.

Regardless, I just don't think the Hurricanum really fits into what most good SCE armies are doing these days - it really feels like it wants to be part of a Death Star formation with several other wizards hiding behind a bunch of screens. I'm sure there's an SCE list out there that could include it, I just don't think it synergizes well with our units and what we're typically trying to do. Those 280 points could potentially be spent on bodies (10 Sequitors) or shooting (2 units of 3 Hurricane Raptors) that we can deep strike instead.

[chord]

Building a box of Dracolines and it appears that only one grandstaff is included but the unit can take 2.  What did people do for that?