AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[HammerOfSigmar]

8 minutes ago, Talunus said:

Where does ignax scale come from?

Aqshy aretefact, realm rules, you need the maglin of sorcery book

[PJetski]

9 hours ago, tom_gore said:

Yeah. I'm unconvinced many armies could even remove that 20-strong unit of Sequitors buffed by the Castellant in a game anyway.

It's not as good as you think. Strong, but definitely something that people can counter in many ways:

• It relies on a Castellant that has to be within a certain range in the hero phase, and can be sniped
• Staunch Defender is only 9", easy to force the unit to move out of range (or just kill the general)
• You don't get to reroll all saves against shooting
• You don't get to reroll all saves against units that fight first since they will attack on their turn before you can activate the ability
• Mortal wound spells that scale with units size really demolish this unit
• A large unit of 20 models 40mm bases and 1" attacks is unwieldly - easy to flank and tie down forever

I've always found Sequitors to be too big of an investment. Why spend 560 points trying to tie down the enemy army for multiple turns when you can throw away 100 points of Liberators and tie them down for 1 turn, then counterattack with 440 points of Evocators.

[jhamslam]

Yeah i agree with Jetski here. 20 Block Sequitors are easily engaged on the wings and tied down with chaff. Theyre only ever good in groups of 10 and now at 130 for 5, theyre not even worth that since they will die just as easily as liberators in the new offensive meta of rend, mw and fight first. 

Efficiency is unfortunately the name of the game while playing SCE and evocators are good at removal, the humble liberator is the best "chaff" we got (although how a sigmarite knight gets that role is beyond me, they shouldnt be 100 points) . Until Cities of Sigmar drops anyway

 

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

You don't get to reroll all saves against units that fight first since they will attack on their turn before you can activate the ability

I still don't understand how a passive ability activates after an attack... Fight First fine but while you're charging at me, I'm going to empower my shield not just stand there?? The Sequitor ability should be done at the start of combat phase itself.

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, jhamslam said:

the humble liberator is the best "chaff" we got (although how a sigmarite knight gets that role is beyond me, they shouldnt be 100 points)

would you like to see them become cheaper points wise, or sturdier rules-wise? any idea how if the latter?

[jhamslam]

19 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

would you like to see them become cheaper points wise, or sturdier rules-wise? any idea how if the latter?

I would make them 3 wounds a piece, theyre on 40mms and by now even things on 32 mm have 2 wounds.  Ideally id move them to 80 points. The liberator is a great battleline for 100 in AoS 1.0. In 2.0 theyre just bad. and the mindset of "Liberators must be 100" filters down to other SCE making them overcosted.  Judicators should be 130 or 140, Retributors should be 160 , Lord Castellants and Celestants are fine at 100. 

Liberators are costed like this elite knight battleline, but they can hardly do any damage with their 4+ 3+ profile with only one special one and a 4+ save isnt as good when everything now has either crazy numbers of attacks or a high MW high rend profile. Theyre eventually becoming Space Marines from 40k. The prevalence of high AP weaponry there makes SM useless. Youre better off running specialized SM (scouts, eliminators, Plasma/Storm Shield) in 40k and youre better off running specialized SCE in AoS (Longstrikes + Evocators).

 

Given that you get 5 guys where everyone else brings like 10 for the same cost, we cant even expect liberators to just hold a position reliably

Edited August 1, 2019 by jhamslam

[Turragor]

8 hours ago, Naem said:

Yes, I meant Empower. Would be amazing if you could include it  

Should be up soon. We've also added realm spells, spells in general (SC) and endless spells (SC). I added all spells to units that were missing them.

 

[Coolwood]

Hey all

Been thinking about how to make a competitive hammers list using gavriel. This is what I have come up with so far - what do people think? 

 

[Mark Williams]

I think a good way to make liberators (and sequitors) more relevant is to give them a rule similar to space marines allegiance, which allows them to hold an objective even if they are outnumbered. That one simple change to "redeemer" units would give stormcast a little bit more chops in games, and people couldn't just throw a useless chaff unit like skinks at them and capture objectives. They would have to actually commit some resources to a unit in order to kick them off an objective.

[jhamslam]

48 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I think a good way to make liberators (and sequitors) more relevant is to give them a rule similar to space marines allegiance, which allows them to hold an objective even if they are outnumbered. That one simple change to "redeemer" units would give stormcast a little bit more chops in games, and people couldn't just throw a useless chaff unit like skinks at them and capture objectives. They would have to actually commit some resources to a unit in order to kick them off an objective.

Thats actually not a bad idea. Opsec for the SCE Redeemer / Prosecutor line would be amazing. Problem is itd be incredibly broken with Deepstriking. 20 Sequitors are not that good rn but to kick them off an objective entirely (the whole unit) is a nightmare and would be too OP.

Edited August 1, 2019 by jhamslam

[Mark Williams]

11 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Thats actually not a bad idea. Opsec for the SCE Redeemer / Prosecutor line would be amazing. Problem is itd be incredibly broken with Deepstriking. 20 Sequitors are not that good rn but to kick them off an objective entirely (the whole unit) is a nightmare and would be too OP.

Would it really though? Most armies always out drop SCE armies, and exposing a unit, even a good one to getting attacked by everything in your opponent's list is risky enough that it wouldn't be an automatic win. And keep in mind you have stuff like Morathi in the game who can go sit on an objective and tank it for 3+ turns. Also, it's not the end of the world if we have an actually strong combination that makes opponents actually have to work for a win.

[tom_gore]

11 hours ago, PJetski said:

It's not as good as you think. Strong, but definitely something that people can counter in many ways:

• It relies on a Castellant that has to be within a certain range in the hero phase, and can be sniped
• Staunch Defender is only 9", easy to force the unit to move out of range (or just kill the general)
• You don't get to reroll all saves against shooting
• You don't get to reroll all saves against units that fight first since they will attack on their turn before you can activate the ability
• Mortal wound spells that scale with units size really demolish this unit
• A large unit of 20 models 40mm bases and 1" attacks is unwieldly - easy to flank and tie down forever

I've always found Sequitors to be too big of an investment. Why spend 560 points trying to tie down the enemy army for multiple turns when you can throw away 100 points of Liberators and tie them down for 1 turn, then counterattack with 440 points of Evocators.

The 20-man unit can reliably hold an objective, where a 5-man liberator unit cannot. Of course, 10 Sequitors could also do the job unless it's a really big horde.

Has it been FAQd that units who fight first activate before the Sequitors activate Aetheric Channeling? That seems wonky.

EDIT: Yeah I get it. Most of those abilities state the attack happens at the start of the combat phase, so if it is the enemy's turn they get to do it first. Bummer.

Edited August 2, 2019 by tom_gore

[Naem]

And Sequitors are not only there to hold stuff, at least in my games they proved to be killer machines. When buffed correctly you have a 10/15/20 man unit, that reroll to hit and to wound, have 2 attacks each and hit and wound on 3+. Also in a 10 man unit you have 5 grandhammers (4 units + 1 prime) which deal 2 dmg each so potentially 20 dmg just from the grandmaces. Then you also get to heal the gang and even bring them back if you play Hammers. Dunno I find Sequitors pretty awesome and my enemies hate them. Esp. if they can't get rid of them in 1-2 rounds and then get hit hard by Evocators or other Paladins. 

[Naem]

12 hours ago, Turragor said:

Should be up soon. We've also added realm spells, spells in general (SC) and endless spells (SC). I added all spells to units that were missing them.

 

Amazing, thank you! You really did a great job esp for me, who manages to masterfully craft lists with epic synergies and then forgetts half of it during the game

Is there any chance you put the site out as an app? 

[Lucur]

That's the typical issue of casual vs pro-gameplay though. In a non optimized list with not overly competitive generals, Sequitors seem very strong. Once you take them to a more competitive environment, they become far weaker. I don't mean to come down on anyone here, please don't take offense (I'm not a real tournamemt player due to lack of time myself, just take a lot of interest in the scene)

It's similar to many a video game, say LoL, where a champ can have an overall average winrate of 40% but is a 100% pick and ban in pro games because coordination and deep understanding of mechanics are at work. Casual players would call for buffs, pros for nerfs.

It's the same with Stormcast, in an average beer and brezel game, they seem inherently strong. In a GT they are overcosted annoyances.

[Naem]

Maybe maybe, but I am glad to get 1-2 games per week in at my local store. I did some tourney runs back at the day and though I am a competitive guy it was not really fun because everyone was so result orientated (which of course is to be expected) and it seemed that we didn't even play Warhammer. We could just as well have had black and which wooden bricks with stats, run them threw an algorithm and determine the winner. I personally enjoy my "casual but deadly serious" games more ^^

And to be fair, my main enemies are Orruks who didnt have a book and StD who just suck

[Mark Williams]

21 minutes ago, Lucur said:

That's the typical issue of casual vs pro-gameplay though. In a non optimized list with not overly competitive generals, Sequitors seem very strong. Once you take them to a more competitive environment, they become far weaker. I don't mean to come down on anyone here, please don't take offense (I'm not a real tournamemt player due to lack of time myself, just take a lot of interest in the scene)

It's similar to many a video game, say LoL, where a champ can have an overall average winrate of 40% but is a 100% pick and ban in pro games because coordination and deep understanding of mechanics are at work. Casual players would call for buffs, pros for nerfs.

It's the same with Stormcast, in an average beer and brezel game, they seem inherently strong. In a GT they are overcosted annoyances.

This is my opinion as well. Good solid 3/5 tier army, with occasional edge cases.

[Turragor]

30 minutes ago, Naem said:

Amazing, thank you! You really did a great job esp for me, who manages to masterfully craft lists with epic synergies and then forgetts half of it during the game

Is there any chance you put the site out as an app? 

@daviseford deserves the lion's share of the credit for setting it all up - then some of us fill in the factions

Re: app - it works on a mobile web browser pretty neatly already. Unless you mean something else?

[Coolwood]

Having had some time to think a bit more about the list i posted - I'm not sure i like the idea of alpha strike/gav bomb due to the inherent risks of it going wrong and also it clearly doesn't work in the current meta. I do find list building with stormcast very difficult at the moment i have to admit - beyond the desolator or anvil strike lists i really struggle to come up with anything that feels like its viable. I find myself trying to build a TAC list even though i know that this list doesn't really work in the current meta

[kuroyume]

4 hours ago, Lucur said:

That's the typical issue of casual vs pro-gameplay though. In a non optimized list with not overly competitive generals, Sequitors seem very strong. Once you take them to a more competitive environment, they become far weaker. I don't mean to come down on anyone here, please don't take offense (I'm not a real tournamemt player due to lack of time myself, just take a lot of interest in the scene)

That's true. I'm lucky that my community tends to prefer quarterly leagues over tournaments, so I get both a relatively competitive enviroment but also a lot of varied list building since you can adjust to your opponent and battle plan each week. I appreciate the efforts of the tournament players, but it sucks for them that they are stuck with just Anvilstrike, which in my experience is an extremely boring playstyle.

[Maturin]

So maybe that at my local Warhammer Store everybody sucks, but the guy who won the tournament was a SCE with : 

Lord Aquilor on GC

2 Celestars with 1 Lord Ordinator

1 Knight incantor with the cheapest blast spell

2 or 3 vanguard hunters x5

1 5man evocator

1 5 man sequitor

He had plenty of mobility with his Lord Aquilor, he moved quite around the table. He deleted monsters in one or two turns with his balistas, and evocators did hurt too. Yu guys think it's not a tournament list ?

[chord]

2 hours ago, Maturin said:

So maybe that at my local Warhammer Store everybody sucks, but the guy who won the tournament was a SCE with : 

Lord Aquilor on GC

2 Celestars with 1 Lord Ordinator

1 Knight incantor with the cheapest blast spell

2 or 3 vanguard hunters x5

1 5man evocator

1 5 man sequitor

He had plenty of mobility with his Lord Aquilor, he moved quite around the table. He deleted monsters in one or two turns with his balistas, and evocators did hurt too. Yu guys think it's not a tournament list ?

I do not think this is a tournament list but I do think that the spell the knight incantor is using is underrated. 

[Maturin]

44 minutes ago, chord said:

I do not think this is a tournament list but I do think that the spell the knight incantor is using is underrated. 

He put 3 MW on my LCOD from the back of the table, in one spell!

Edited August 2, 2019 by Maturin

[PrimeElectrid]

2 hours ago, chord said:

I do not think this is a tournament list but I do think that the spell the knight incantor is using is underrated. 

I’ve been using it since March and it’s really underrated, surprised not to see it mentioned before. Cheap to cast, better damage than arcane bolt, and most of the things you want to hit with mortal wounds usually run at you.

its also  gives you options when you inevitably get given first turn and are out of range of everything else, and AT Dauntless Hunters can help line it up against a key target.

[chord]

15 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

I’ve been using it since March and it’s really underrated, surprised not to see it mentioned before. Cheap to cast, better damage than arcane bolt, and most of the things you want to hit with mortal wounds usually run at you.

its also  gives you options when you inevitably get given first turn and are out of range of everything else, and AT Dauntless Hunters can help line it up against a key target.

Yup it has unlimited range but you can't aim it too well.  But its effective all the time.  Typically in the opening round I just blast it , then as I move my knight-incantor into a support role (behind paladins, etc)  he really helps chew through whatever they are fighting.

My favorite part is that it's so thematic!!