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AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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12 hours ago, PJetski said:

Anvilstrike is arguably the best list in the game with seemingly nothing that can consistently counter it... but it is only as good as the general.

If you play it just right it seems like there's really nothing your opponent can do. Aetherwings stop melee, teleporting raptors win the ranged game, incantors stop magic long enough to let the raptors shoot, and evocators kill everything they touch.

The only truly hard matchup is the mirror 🤣

I think Sylvaneth is a pretty good hard counter to your list. Luckily their book hasnt arrived yet

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Alrighty!  Got a game tonight vs Nurgle GUOs and plaguebearers. So as I've stated before I have mostly Sacrosanct Chamber plus a Celestant Prime and Now a castellant for that sweet sweet Staunch Defender list as needed. I'm sideling the Endless Spells list for now as I want to try more items. But I'm curious as to the group think on some lists to build.   So fellow Stormbros what say you on some list ideas to fight said evils of the demon realm

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Held a one day tourney, had a couple SCE players show up (I was ringing with Bonesplitterz). Two with Gav, one with Astral Templars. All of them went 2-1, but the Astral Templars list in particular raised a lot of eyebrows. 6 Desolators and 4 Ballistas is pretty messy against anything that doesn't have mass blocking or MW output. I think that's a reasonable build going forward, though with some testing and tweaking.

Desolators just feel straight up better than Dracovators for the points, especially now that Places of Arcane Power doesn't do Wizard scoring anymore (unless they use the 2018 version). Though the extra dispel and cheeky MW output is, of course, always quite powerful.

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20 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

I think Sylvaneth is a pretty good hard counter to your list. Luckily their book hasnt arrived yet

Hasn't been my experience. Sylvaneth are a melee army, and like all other melee armies they just get tied down by Aetherwings and shot/blasted down by the Longstrikes and Evocators.

They have the woods to block sight but the mortal wound output between evocators, geminids, heraldor, and even Stormcaller they can't camp in the woods forever. The Aetherwings and Incantors stop them from being effective in the woods so they have to eventually leave to accomplish anything, and if they leave the woods then they get shot off the table. Any list with Alarielle loses almost automatically because she can't use the woods to block sight.

Edited by PJetski
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7 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Held a one day tourney, had a couple SCE players show up (I was ringing with Bonesplitterz). Two with Gav, one with Astral Templars. All of them went 2-1, but the Astral Templars list in particular raised a lot of eyebrows. 6 Desolators and 4 Ballistas is pretty messy against anything that doesn't have mass blocking or MW output. I think that's a reasonable build going forward, though with some testing and tweaking.

Desolators just feel straight up better than Dracovators for the points, especially now that Places of Arcane Power doesn't do Wizard scoring anymore (unless they use the 2018 version). Though the extra dispel and cheeky MW output is, of course, always quite powerful.

Thanks for the feedback - very interesting to see!

One concept I was thinking was trying to run the Lord Arcanum on Tauralon with 6 desolators and 3 ballista + ordinator. Idea behind it would be to have him as a mini beatstick who can keep up with the desolators and in some circumstances give you the +1 to hit on the breath attack whilst providing cycle of the storm protection. The question is what support heroes would you run......

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4 minutes ago, Coolwood said:

Thanks for the feedback - very interesting to see!

One concept I was thinking was trying to run the Lord Arcanum on Tauralon with 6 desolators and 3 ballista + ordinator. Idea behind it would be to have him as a mini beatstick who can keep up with the desolators and in some circumstances give you the +1 to hit on the breath attack whilst providing cycle of the storm protection. The question is what support heroes would you run......

The +1 from the Tauralon is great in practice but usually pretty hard to pull off as you need to fly over the unit. 

Tbh I've been thinking of ways to get the new Celestial Hurricanum without Wizard into one of these lists, it's just so good for 300 points.

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15 minutes ago, Requizen said:

The +1 from the Tauralon is great in practice but usually pretty hard to pull off as you need to fly over the unit. 

Tbh I've been thinking of ways to get the new Celestial Hurricanum without Wizard into one of these lists, it's just so good for 300 points.

I agree the +1 to hit is very situational and not easy to pull off. In its favour it has the +2 to run CA for additional mobility and plenty of wounds for spirit flasks. I just love the model so have been trying to find a way to make it fit into a list over the Drakesworn Templar haha.

Havent looked into the Hurricanum yet though. 

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1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Held a one day tourney, had a couple SCE players show up (I was ringing with Bonesplitterz). Two with Gav, one with Astral Templars. All of them went 2-1, but the Astral Templars list in particular raised a lot of eyebrows. 6 Desolators and 4 Ballistas is pretty messy against anything that doesn't have mass blocking or MW output. I think that's a reasonable build going forward, though with some testing and tweaking.

Desolators just feel straight up better than Dracovators for the points, especially now that Places of Arcane Power doesn't do Wizard scoring anymore (unless they use the 2018 version). Though the extra dispel and cheeky MW output is, of course, always quite powerful.

Any of these in that astral Templar list to boost?

Was azyros there to boost both ballistas and desolators?

castellant?

heraldor?

what general did you see?

Edited by FattBooM666
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5 minutes ago, FattBooM666 said:

Any of these in that astral Templar list to boost?

Was azyros there to boost both ballistas and desolators?

castellant?

heraldor?

what general did you see?

Not my list, I only saw the Desolators and the Ballistas.

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23 hours ago, Belper said:

Atm, nothing in stormcasts is all that competitive tbh.  We mostly have gimmick deepstrike lists and 'brake check' shooting lists.

(A brake check list is a list that either you have the tools to deal with, and you win with little or no effort, or you don't and you get wiped off the table immediately'.

I don't get where this sense of entitlement comes from in the community, that a faction has to have some kind of auto-win condition or otherwise it is not competitive.

As much as I like what the honestwargamer does for the community (can't stress enough how important his handbook and approach to unify technology and collecting data is, I really mean that from the bottom of my heart) I do also think that most people without the appropriate academic background don't know how to handle statistics or interpretation of statistics. And he also makes it easy for people with basic knowledge of statistics to misinterpret them, because all the ways clustering used is very suggestive and there isn't much he can do about it even if he wanted to. Without the right education you're not able to challenge correlations and causality of statistics.

Stormcast has the unit variety to adjust to any change in meta without ever being completely lost or drawing dead. Yes, it's not easy, because you have no Auto-Win.

Everybody thinks FEC his so overpowered and while I thinks some of their strategies should have a bigger trade-off condition against one another, I think it's becoming the new BCR, which only beginners complain about.

Your skill is what's important, especially with Stormcast. Sorry to say and I don't mean to offend, but my opinion states: If your win rate with Stormcast in tournaments is under 70%, it's you, and it's ok.

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I guess not.  Was the point that one of the most-winning Stormcast players in the world was also the highest ranked Stormcast player at Lord of War 2019 where he placed 29th out of 66 players?

Or was it that there are two Stormcast players in the top 15 of ITC; neither having Top3'd a GT?

The point, as I read it, is that statistics aren't helpful if you don't have a degree.  And that you're bad if you're not winning at least 70% with Stormcast.  The first part being irrelevant, and the second part being elitist (and incorrect).

My point is that is that the statements he was replying to (even if I don't agree with them) are at least fair statements to make while Stormcast fails to deliver results across the world.

Edited by crkhobbit
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13 minutes ago, crkhobbit said:

Everybody thinks FEC is overpowered because every large tournament Top-5 has 3 FEC lists.  That's not statistics; it's results.

Your last sentence is exactly what hinders many people without the appropriate academic background to work with stats. It's tempting to think so, it's toxic however to press your interpretation (and that's all that it is) as reality onto others. With stats people tend to get very aggressive in the way they are willing to argue (historically and always). You just made my point.

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I'm on my phone and on my way home from work, I'll need a real keyboard to respond in kind.

Just a few situational points to consider winrates: Does it contain all versions of all Battletomes or just the current one? All pointchanges or just the latest? Is the source cleaned of mirror matchup?

Why? Example: Your at a tournament and have 2 mirror matches. Each win for you means one loss for the win rate, which leads to check if the most played faction also has the most mirror matches?

Is the devation of good/bad players the same as FEC, since it's a beginners and poster boy army? Is it reasonable to think that mostly good/competitive players switch to new armies and take it to tournaments within month of publication? 

 

I do not want to give an answer to these questions, these are just a very very few to ask, and there more.

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I think the disconnect here is that JaffaBones is in the context of game win rates.  And, at least to me, "competitive" means the potential to win large, competitive events.

For my money, game win % is an irrelevant counter to the assertion that they're not competitive if literally no one in the world can win a GT with them.  If literally every Stormcast player goes 4-1; but literally every Stormcast player still loses to FEC, or whoever the boogeyman happens to be at that time, it's fair to say that they're not competitive in that context.  Because the event win % is zero.

And when FEC is so consistently placing in such large, competitive events, it's completely fair to treat them like the competitive boogeyman that they are.

Edited by crkhobbit
typos
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3 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I don't understand how you're "supposed" to win 70% of games, and it certainly sounds elitist to proclaim that anyone playing a certain faction should have that level of winrate or ~you're bad~

Wow, please re read that statement.you are implying I said that.

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1 minute ago, crkhobbit said:

I think the disconnect here is that JaffaBones is in the context of game win rates.  And, at least to me, "competitive" means the potential to win large, competitive events.

For my money, game win % is an irrelevant counter to the assertion that they're not competitive if literally no one in the world can win a GT with them.  If literally every Stormcast player goes 4-1; but literally every Stormcast player still loses to FEC, or whoever the boogeyman happens to be at that time, it's fair to say that they're not competitive in that context.  Because the event win % is zero.

And when FEC is so consistently placing in such large, competitive events, it's completely fair to treat them like the competitive boogeyman that they are.

I can sign this. I'm so used to competitive being argued with win rates, that maybe I did read into something.

About the Grand Tournament argument, didn't Stormcrutch win some in a row or do those tournaments don't count as being competitive? I think they where +180 participants, but I really don't know without further research.

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1 hour ago, JaffaBones said:

Your skill is what's important, especially with Stormcast. Sorry to say and I don't mean to offend, but my opinion states: If your win rate with Stormcast in tournaments is under 70%, it's you, and it's ok.

I think you did say that. Could it have been poor phrasing? It also seems to be a statement of fact based on no supporting data. Opinion or not, its hard to tout the merits of an unbiased analysis followed up by an opinion that used some fixed %.

You arent wrong that statistics can easily be misrepresnted, and a comment like that shows exactly how easy it is to commit the exact offense you are trying to bring attention to.

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In Jaffa's defense, I assume that statement was hyperbole.  With the point being that there's always something you can be doing to improve your own play/results, regardless of your faction.

All things being equal, the average player should be around 50%.  But if you're an average player with a bad faction, that number is going to drift lower than 50%.  Especially if you're commonly playing above-average players and/or against bad match-ups.

Edited by crkhobbit
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11 minutes ago, JaffaBones said:

About the Grand Tournament argument, didn't Stormcrutch win some in a row or do those tournaments don't count as being competitive? I think they where +180 participants, but I really don't know without further research.

I have not seen these results.  I've been looking for good Stormcast results for months.  How long ago was it?

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22 minutes ago, firtahl said:

I think you did say that. Could it have been poor phrasing? It also seems to be a statement of fact based on no supporting data. Opinion or not, its hard to tout the merits of an unbiased analysis followed up by an opinion that used some fixed %.

You arent wrong that statistics can easily be misrepresnted, and a comment like that shows exactly how easy it is to commit the exact offense you are trying to bring attention to.

Maybe poor phrasing. My opinions are not facts. If I meant fact,I would've said fact. I could've also said 80% or 30%. It's still you, since others did better or worse, and again, it's ok.

Edited by JaffaBones
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