AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Dayman85]

Zzz2k list: 

Stormhost:

Celestial Vindicators

Leaders:

Drakesworn Templar: 460 pts 

Stormrage blade and Arc Hammer

Knight Incantor :  140 pts

Azerite Halo

Lord Castellant: 120 pts

Lord Relictor: 100pts

Translocation

Battleline:

3 x5 units of Liberators: 300pts

Other: 

3 x 2 units of Desolators : 600pts

1 x 3 unit of Longstrike Raptors: 170 pts

Endless spells:

Everblaze Comet : 100pts

Malevolent Malestrom :10pts 

The idea here is you use the bow on the general to give your Desolators plus +1 to hit, this will affect both their breath attacks and melee attacks. You only need to hit not wound, so on a 3+ you can guarantee lots of damage from your deso unit. Use the command point to reroll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase in your dracoths and with Vindicators you're rerolling 1s to hit after a successful charge.

Desolators get 3s to hit, rerolls of 1, for both melee and with their breath attacks which do d3 mortals a piece. So their axes have 30 attacks with 6 models -1 rend 2 damage a piece, along with claws which hit on 2s and you reroll 1s. 

I tried this last week against Idoneth and it wiped out a unit of 6 eels without a problem. 

Now let's get to your general..... He has the arc hammer, with your artifact you get 2 extra attacks. And 6s are two hits as well as they do an extra damage, if you charged you reroll 1s. So 4 attacks 3/3s -1/3 damage a piece. 6s are 4 damage and an extra attack... This with the stardrakes natural ability to eat little guys was insane. It was taking out units of 20 thralls in a single charge without issue especially if you take keen clawed.... It's an absurd amount of damage.

So the raptor unit, your comet and rain of stars are going to be your on foot hero killers. Basically table wide way of putting wounds into hero's that are priority targets. If you get a successful double turn off of turn 2 these 3 things can be devasting together. You get 2 comet activates, 2 rain of stars and 2 rounds of raptor shooting which means you can usually kill 1 hero and wound another pretty badly.

The maelstrom is for magic heavy armies where you may find one wizard to be underwhelming (Looking at you LON and Tzeentch)

I usually play very defensively so this list was loads of fun to play with. I think with command point changes it really has potential with Dracoths getting more mortal wound consistency.

Hope you enjoy this little write up!

[HammerOfSigmar]

misunderstood, deleted

Edited June 25, 2019 by HammerOfSigmar

[Dayman85]

1 minute ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

You'd better merge 3 small units of desolator into 1 big unit.

My apologies that should be a correction.... It is 1 unit of 6 Desolators. I just wanted to show that it was made up of 3 units.

[CommissarRotke]

edit: didn't see reply when I refreshed page, it is 6 deso

Edited June 25, 2019 by CommissarRotke

[Dayman85]

1 minute ago, CommissarRotke said:

@Dayman85 for Desolators, don't you want to keep them in units of 4 or more for their bonus?

I don't know how to correct my post... But yes the point is to have 1 unit of 6..... 

Edited June 25, 2019 by Dayman85
They get +2 to their attacks with 6 or more

[CommissarRotke]

there should be an Edit button at the bottom of the post, but I think it can time-out

[PrimeElectrid]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Yes, Hurricanes are without a doubt our most cost effective shooting unit. 

Crossbow Judicators can fill battleline slots, though. It's worth mentioning that the anti-horde weapon has not been modelled, but if you can constantly shoot at a unit of >6 models then it makes Judicators significantly better. I should model that.

Isn’t it more efficient to always give the Judicator prime a shockbolt now rather then take the cannon?

[Dayman85]

25 minutes ago, Dayman85 said:

Zzz2k list: 

Stormhost:

Celestial Vindicators

Leaders:

Drakesworn Templar: 460 pts 

Stormrage blade and Arc Hammer

Knight Incantor :  140 pts

Azerite Halo

Lord Castellant: 120 pts

Lord Relictor: 100pts

Translocation

Battleline:

3 x5 units of Liberators: 300pts

Other: 

3 x 2 units of Desolators : 600pts

1 x 3 unit of Longstrike Raptors: 170 pts

Endless spells:

Everblaze Comet : 100pts

Malevolent Malestrom :10pts 

The idea here is you use the bow on the general to give your Desolators plus +1 to hit, this will affect both their breath attacks and melee attacks. You only need to hit not wound, so on a 3+ you can guarantee lots of damage from your deso unit. Use the command point to reroll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase in your dracoths and with Vindicators you're rerolling 1s to hit after a successful charge.

Desolators get 3s to hit, rerolls of 1, for both melee and with their breath attacks which do d3 mortals a piece. So their axes have 30 attacks with 6 models -1 rend 2 damage a piece, along with claws which hit on 2s and you reroll 1s. 

I tried this last week against Idoneth and it wiped out a unit of 6 eels without a problem. 

Now let's get to your general..... He has the arc hammer, with your artifact you get 2 extra attacks. And 6s are two hits as well as they do an extra damage, if you charged you reroll 1s. So 4 attacks 3/3s -1/3 damage a piece. 6s are 4 damage and an extra attack... This with the stardrakes natural ability to eat little guys was insane. It was taking out units of 20 thralls in a single charge without issue especially if you take keen clawed.... It's an absurd amount of damage.

So the raptor unit, your comet and rain of stars are going to be your on foot hero killers. Basically table wide way of putting wounds into hero's that are priority targets. If you get a successful double turn off of turn 2 these 3 things can be devasting together. You get 2 comet activates, 2 rain of stars and 2 rounds of raptor shooting which means you can usually kill 1 hero and wound another pretty badly.

The maelstrom is for magic heavy armies where you may find one wizard to be underwhelming (Looking at you LON and Tzeentch)

I usually play very defensively so this list was loads of fun to play with. I think with command point changes it really has potential with Dracoths getting more mortal wound consistency.

Hope you enjoy this little write up!

Also to add, second round I usually throw castellant buff onto the unit of 6 Desolators. They will then be saving on 2s and rerolling 1s, healing wound on 6s and spitting out a mortal on 6s. 

With this list you lack wounds on the table, but the Draco guard units really make up for it in their tankiness and their ability kill things. Especially at their now listed 200 points, it's a lot less of an investment then previously compared to things like evos on foot. 

[PJetski]

53 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Isn’t it more efficient to always give the Judicator prime a shockbolt now rather then take the cannon?

No. Prime+Shockbolt bow does an average of 1.944 damage (before armor saves) while the Thunderhead Crossbow does an average of 2 mortal wounds (assuming you hit the right target) and it leaves the Prime open to use his +1 hit on a bow or crossbow.

Shockbolt can swing higher (max 6 damage) but that comes at the cost of having to roll to deal with hit/wound/save rolls

Edited June 25, 2019 by PJetski

[Gdead909]

Hey guys, I was starting to look at SCE but before I dive in, is there any playability to the guys on dracoths? They seem very tanky and very quick but I dont know if they combo well with anything. Any help would be appreciated.

[crkhobbit]

16 minutes ago, Gdead909 said:

Hey guys, I was starting to look at SCE but before I dive in, is there any playability to the guys on dracoths? They seem very tanky and very quick but I dont know if they combo well with anything. Any help would be appreciated.

Most of them got price drops, so they might be competitive now.  I'd say they need testing to be sure.  But definitely playable.

[Dayman85]

25 minutes ago, Gdead909 said:

Hey guys, I was starting to look at SCE but before I dive in, is there any playability to the guys on dracoths? They seem very tanky and very quick but I dont know if they combo well with anything. Any help would be appreciated.

I just posted a new list above that has worked really well over 2 games so far. Now this is coming from a player who took staunch defender majority of the time and played really defensive. Due to the 20 point drop Desolators got it made taking 6 a lot more viable for 60 pts cheaper. I also think that tempestors work a little bit better with the new command abilities and being able to reroll 1s for missiles. That's the route I intend on going and I have no dracothian guard yet (just the correct bases) but with list building it made sense on paper and seemed very strong while playing.

[kuroyume]

23 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Idk what to tell you, Stormcast arent that good in melee

I think this is what makes a lot of us be so dissapointed in the current state of SCE. We picked up an army of powered up immortal supermen covered in mystical armor and it turns out the best (and really the only viable) strategy to play them is to hide behind birds and run away as much as you can. The look and the fluff of the army is completely disconnected from the rules.

Edited June 25, 2019 by kuroyume

[jhamslam]

1 minute ago, kuroyume said:

I think this is what makes a lot of us be so dissapointed in the current state of SCE. We picked up an army of powered up immortal supermen covered in mystical armor and it turns out the best (and really the only viable) strategy to play them is to hide behind birds and run away as much as you can. The look and the fluff of the army is completely disconnected from the rules.

Yep. I was afraid of this happening to them. Turning into Space Marines from 40k. Lots of models, good looking models and tough lore and just about the most overcosted and paper thin units in the game. lets hope this doesnt continue

[PJetski]

Stormcast are good at melee but not as good as the dedicated melee factions. You have to use a combined arms approach to combat.

It would be fine if our Stormhosts allowed us to specialize further. In theory Celestial Vindicators should be the melee guys and Celestial Warbringers should be the spell guys but in practice they are only marginally better than not taking a Stormhost at all.

Stormcast need more specialization. They could juice up the Stormhost bonuses but add some restrictions to army building, for example:

Celestial Vindicators
Trait: If you charged you can fight at the start of the Combat Phase, but all their missile weapon have -1 hit unless they are within 12" of the target

Celestial Warbringers
Trait: All WIZARD HERO can cast one additional spell, but if they use this ability to cast another spell then they can't move or charge later that turn.

Knights-Excelsior
Trait: Once per turn if you destroy a unit you can immediately fight again, but you cannot take Allies.

Hallowed Knights
Trait: Ignore all spells (from friend or foe) on a 4+

Edited June 25, 2019 by PJetski

[jhamslam]

36 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Stormcast are good at melee but not as good as the dedicated melee factions. You have to use a combined arms approach to combat.

It would be fine if our Stormhosts allowed us to specialize further. In theory Celestial Vindicators should be the melee guys and Celestial Warbringers should be the spell guys but in practice they are only marginally better than not taking a Stormhost at all.

Stormcast need more specialization. They could juice up the Stormhost bonuses but add some restrictions to army building, for example:

Celestial Vindicators
Trait: If you charged you can fight at the start of the Combat Phase, but all their missile weapon have -1 hit unless they are within 12" of the target

Celestial Warbringers
Trait: All WIZARD HERO can cast one additional spell, but if they use this ability to cast another spell then they can't move or charge later that turn.

Knights-Excelsior
Trait: Once per turn if you destroy a unit you can immediately fight again, but you cannot take Allies.

Hallowed Knights
Trait: Ignore all spells (from friend or foe) on a 4+

I somewhat agree on this , our stormhosts and battalions are well, average and need some reworking. Celestial Vindicators would seem like the perfect "fight first" stormhost.

[jhamslam]

I would also add. Im not a fan of "fight first" mechanics. Imo games like AoS and 40k are won or lost in the movement phase and getting the initiative on your opponent. To be able to cancel that out with a simple fight first mechanic is the dumbest thing ever, like it takes no strategy or tactical knowledge just move your movels up the board and roll dice

[Mark Williams]

33 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

I would also add. Im not a fan of "fight first" mechanics. Imo games like AoS and 40k are won or lost in the movement phase and getting the initiative on your opponent. To be able to cancel that out with a simple fight first mechanic is the dumbest thing ever, like it takes no strategy or tactical knowledge just move your movels up the board and roll dice

It's worth noting that we had an artefact in the previous tome that allowed us to do this. It just wasn't as much of a big deal I guess because we weren't that great in combat. Also I think it was only once per game.

Another thing to keep in mind is that units like Gavriel are in this same camp of "things that break the rules of the game".

For whatever reason, AoS is full of stuff like this. Because of the fact that (if you think about it) the game is riddled with this kind of thing and seems to have always been, I suppose it's disingenuous to cherry pick certain things like the current activation wars stuff, without acknowledging that we've been playing in a game that revels in breaking its own mechanics almost every chance it gets.

At a certain point you may have to just accept that reality is AoS is not a game that is or probably ever will be balanced in the way that you're talking. I think part of the process of becoming better is accepting the fact that the game isn't built around the concept of fairness. That's obviously not their design intent, and there's no reason to expect it ever will be, based on past history.

The moral of the story is that if you "really" care about winning, just jump on the bandwagon and find something that breaks the mechanics too. Anvilstrike ho......

Edited June 25, 2019 by Mark Williams

[jhamslam]

32 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

It's worth noting that we had an artefact in the previous tome that allowed us to do this. It just wasn't as much of a big deal I guess because we weren't that great in combat. Also I think it was only once per game.

Another thing to keep in mind is that units like Gavriel are in this same camp of "things that break the rules of the game".

For whatever reason, AoS is full of stuff like this. Because of the fact that (if you think about it) the game is riddled with this kind of thing and seems to have always been, I suppose it's disingenuous to cherry pick certain things like the current activation wars stuff, without acknowledging that we've been playing in a game that revels in breaking its own mechanics almost every chance it gets.

At a certain point you may have to just accept that reality is AoS is not a game that is or probably ever will be balanced in the way that you're talking. I think part of the process of becoming better is accepting the fact that the game isn't built around the concept of fairness. That's obviously not their design intent, and there's no reason to expect it ever will be, based on past history.

The moral of the story is that if you "really" care about winning, just jump on the bandwagon and find something that breaks the mechanics too. Anvilstrike ho......

I disagree. Gavriel Sureheart is a strong combo but is counterable and thereforce interactable via movement. Ive had games when i was new to the game, where Gavriel and 10 evos get screened by some dryads or some bloodreavers and my charge is wasted on them, giving my opponent the chance to countercharge and seize the initiative. Now imagine the Gavriel list always fighting first. Youve negated any responsibility for careful positioning on my part since my surecharge bomb will get to annhilate you no matter what

Edited June 25, 2019 by jhamslam

[Mark Williams]

13 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

I disagree. Gavriel Sureheart is a strong combo but is counterable and thereforce interactable via movement. Ive had games when i was new to the game, where Gavriel and 10 evos get screened by some dryads or some bloodreavers and my charge is wasted on them, giving my opponent the chance to countercharge and seize the initiative. Now imagine the Gavriel list always fighting first. Youve negated any responsibility for careful positioning on my part since my surecharge bomb will get to annhilate you no matter what

You've missed my point. I'm not comparing and contrasting the two abilities. I'm saying it breaks the rules of the game in some way, and the FEC/Slaanesh stuff is just another in a long line of rules that do something like that. It stands to reason that rather than us expecting GW to fix it, there will just be even more things like that in the next book and the next. Ad nauseum. That's the game we are actually playing. Expecting any sort of balance at this point is wishful thinking, I think.

Having said that I do wonder what the FAQs and point adjustments in July will do for the game, if anything.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Mark Williams

[jhamslam]

15 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

You've missed my point. I'm not comparing and contrasting the two abilities. I'm saying it breaks the rules of the game in some way, and the FEC/Slaanesh stuff is just another in a long line of rules that do something like that. It stands to reason that rather than fixing it, there will just be even more things like that in the next book and the next. Ad nauseum.

Heres the difference. I dont know if you play Magic the Gathering at all, but i have. A lot. I am completely fine with armies and units having powerful new rules that change the meta game. We get cards like that all the time.

However, we have bans in magic, for cards that allow for no interaction against them and end up being too efficient and broken. In a recent set, KLD, energy was a resource mechanic that didnt drain and no one could interact with. It ended up breaking the meta for being too efficient and had cards banned to compensate and make the comp better since its all that saw play. 

Allowing for powerful rules within the parameters of the game is one thing and completely fine. ,Having powerful rules that most armies therefore players cannot interact with or negate with anything is bad design. 

Hearthguard are strong, but very hero dependant for their 4+ FNP toughness. Interaction is possible for melee, magic and shooting armies. Incredibly powerful but fine.

"fight first" - negates the importance of the movement phase. Outside of maybe LoN magic and SCE shooting, most armies cannot interact with it in anyway considering the powerful combat profile of FEC.  Making it bad design.

Edited June 25, 2019 by jhamslam

[PJetski]

You play around fight first with disposable screening units. Armies that mess with activations generally can't deal with screens.

I don't like how prevalent Fight First has become but if that's the way the game is going then an elite army like Stormcast shouldn't fall behind.

[jhamslam]

28 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You play around fight first with disposable screening units. Armies that mess with activations generally can't deal with screens.

I don't like how prevalent Fight First has become but if that's the way the game is going then an elite army like Stormcast shouldn't fall behind.

Im not sure how disposable screens help. IF youre shooting then sure absolutely. If youre not a shooting army like say Khorne, is there any recourse here? Like screen or not Tgheist has a 2'' and 3'' range for the maw IIRC

[Mark Williams]

27 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Im not sure how disposable screens help. IF youre shooting then sure absolutely. If youre not a shooting army like say Khorne, is there any recourse here? Like screen or not Tgheist has a 2'' and 3'' range for the maw IIRC

I think PJetski's context is generally always from the angle of playing Anvilstrike. I could be wrong, but I've made that mistake before when replying to him.

I believe the idea is throwing some disposable screen in front of enough shooting firepower to pose a threat that is so immediate that any combat oriented army will be forced to try to get through it, or end up losing the game due to having all of its important models removed from the table.

9 longstrikes shooting twice per turn will generally speaking remove 2 dragons a turn. For some FEC players, that's potentially their entire list, minus some wimpy trash units that won't pose much of a threat late game.

In that context, an army like FEC isn't really that big of a deal. The tougher fights are generally stuff like Skaven or Slaanesh - armies that have higher body counts and more moving threats.

[jhamslam]

18 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I think PJetski's context is generally always from the angle of playing Anvilstrike. I could be wrong, but I've made that mistake before when replying to him.

I believe the idea is throwing some disposable screen in front of enough shooting firepower to pose a threat that is so immediate that any combat oriented army will be forced to try to get through it, or end up losing the game due to having all of its important models removed from the table.

9 longstrikes shooting twice per turn will generally speaking remove 2 dragons a turn. For some FEC players, that's potentially their entire list, minus some wimpy trash units that won't pose much of a threat late game.

In that context, an army like FEC isn't really that big of a deal. The tougher fights are generally stuff like Skaven or Slaanesh - armies that have higher body counts and more moving threats.

Oh i know. Like screens are beautiful for shooters, but in the context of the talk about game design, it doesnt leave many options for melee oriented factions (which is a lot of em) that dont have such tools

Edited June 25, 2019 by jhamslam