AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Roark]

Just now, HammerOfSigmar said:

110*3+180+160+50*3+140*3+180+3*100+140=1980, this use the hurricane, if more points to drop for lonstrike, you can switch those hurricane to longstrike

Yeah... but weren't you saying it's like free Anvils command? (ie: Longstrikes). And what's this additional drop to Longstrikes points? Do you mean in the future??

[Mogwai Man]

So with these point changes. Is the Stormcast Eternal meta still the same?

[Nizrah]

Hmmm with all these points reduction i will try now Skyborne Slayers with anvils longstrike

[Requizen]

6 minutes ago, Mogwai Man said:

So with these point changes. Is the Stormcast Eternal meta still the same?

Anvilstrike is still a heavy hitter list. Gav is basically gone (good riddance). Stardrake more or less still the same (Castellant went up, but Arcanum went down if you were using one), but you likely won't support with Evos anymore, and maybe now with Concussors since they're cheaper or something similar. 

Ballistas went up, but here's a funny thing: you can now take a Celestial Hurricanum without Wizard for only 300 points. So the 3-4 Ballista + Ordinator + Hurricanum dream is alive and well, ready to rain tears down from all players.

Skyborne Slayers is legit now, with Gav more or less out of the picture and Paladins down, you should be able to make something here work.

So overall, there's still Anvilstrike, some shooting options, and a solid Alpha Strike build, so largely the same meta but with different pieces. 

The Sacrosanct TAC list is basically gone (20 Sequitors + 10 Evos + Castellant + Wizards + Ballistas), but that was to be expected. Now Liberators are a reasonable take, so I think there's still a TAC build out there that'll be legit enough. 

[Roark]

11 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Hmmm with all these points reduction i will try now Skyborne Slayers with anvils longstrike

I was thinking the same thing. ie, something like this, but it's too hungry for command points and the magic defence is pretty sad:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Lord-Veritant (120)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura 
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Celestant (100)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Knight-Azyros (100)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Protectors (180)
- 2x Starsoul Maces
5 x Decimators (180)
- 2x Starsoul Maces
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
Skyborne Slayers (190)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110

 

[jhamslam]

53 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Man y'all salty. These changes are great. First, my Anvilstrike list goes unchanged (I was at 1990, Evos up 20+20, Longstrikes down 10+10+10, now just a 2000 point list on the nose). Aetherwings remaining 50 points is hilarious as all get out because those are by far the best screening units in the game. 

Vanguard one drop list can now be run, albeit in complete min units and only Hurricanes, Longstrikes won't fit. It's not great, but 1 drop Battalions are pretty rare nowadays and 10 shot, rerolling Hurricanes are nothing to sneeze at.

Even without doing the one-drop, a solid Vanguard army is a lot better now. 6 Palladors + Aquillor + Arcanum on Gryph was already good, now it's 80 points cheaper! And you can still do Raptors behind it! That's really, really competitive in the right setup. 

Tauralon probably didn't go down enough to be worth it, but with a lot of the other big Monster Wizard Heroes in the game going up, he looks better in comparison, at the very least.

Paladins are very good now. Not just because Evos are worse, but Protectors were already good at 200 points, and now Retributors are where they're supposed to be now at 200. We're all used to Evos messing everyone's day up, but a 20 point differential makes Rets worth a look. Evos still have the mechanical advantage, but an 40 point difference in a 10 man unit is waaaay more than enough to make Rets a competitive choice.

Skyborne went down 40 points at a minimum, and that list was already not-so-secretly really good, only  outshone by Gavriel being stupid af, but it's now (imo) the premier SCE Alpha Strike build without Gav + 40 Seqs + 10 Evos  on the table anymore. (It's always been more well rounded as well, which I prefer). 

SCE was already an High-Tier army, and with the DoK and LoN nerfs, and the Errata to FEC/Skaven coming out, we're in an extremely good spot. Honestly the thing I'm most scared of at this point is someone busting out the new Kharadron Overlords and rolling over our elite armies with their insane across-the-board discounts. 80 Arkanauts were already good, went unchanged, their supporting units buffed, etc. It'll be a really insane meta for the next few months, and I can't wait.

I have to disagree here mate. Having not seen the Fyreslayer, FEC and skaven changes its too soon to judge HOW good this is.

I will say this. They have nerfed a meta from nearly half a year ago that these days is barely good enough to crack 3-2 or 2-3 at GTs (Gav or Ballista Combo). SCE is NOT a high tier army, we were fairly Tier B (or even C). All these changes do is knock those already B tier lists down a peg. It doesnt touch Anvilstrike, but honestly given these changes thats ALL that will see play now.  

SCE has two problems now further exarcerbated:

1. Weakness to MW - No fyreslayer esque protection

2. Too few bodies - We cannot contest objectives anymore. Dont have the numbers. We were previously winning on smashing our opponent's kneecaps, but with the increases to our best units, that looks even more unlikely, unless of course youre playing ONE list - anvilstrike

Your point about retributors. Nope. They shoulve been 160 and here's why. SCE lists dont need to squeeze 20 points to fit in retributors. Thats not the issue. Simply put, the retributors are NOT efficient for their points cost at all. A hearthguard berzerker with broadaxes at 120 is essentially doing the same thing as them without the mortal wounds on 6s. At that point range (200) compared to evocators (220).  its just the liberator (100) and sequitor( 120 ) issue all over again. Warrior chamber, simply put, is barely average in today's heavy rend and MW meta.

Compared to other armies, we got hit super hard. Ben Savva's DoK, a top tier Hag Narr list only increased by 60 points. A simple 20 sequitor 10 evocator 3 ballista list for instance, which as a 3-2, 2-3 record at most GTs now has gone up 130 points. 

Power is relative however, and im holding my final judgement until we see what the digital changes hold, but if these conservative estimates are whats to be expected, we're screwed. 20 points here and there wont change much for skaven at all and as far as im concerned that warped lightning vortex needs to GO.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by jhamslam

[PrimeElectrid]

21 minutes ago, Requizen said:

The Sacrosanct TAC list is basically gone (20 Sequitors + 10 Evos + Castellant + Wizards + Ballistas), but that was to be expected. Now Liberators are a reasonable take, so I think there's still a TAC build out there that'll be legit enough. 

You can still sort of do it with Libs: Arcanum on GC, 20 Sequitors, 2x5 Libs, Incantor, Ordinator, 10 Evos and 4 Ballista comes to 2000 points exactly (suspiciously so).

Drop the Arcanum on foot and 1 Ballista gives you points for the Castellant and change for Endless Spells. Personally I’ve gone off the Castellant and like the Gryph. I’m 50-50 on 20 Sequitors and no shackles or 15 and shackles/swords.

 

[HammerOfSigmar]

47 minutes ago, Roark said:

Yeah... but weren't you saying it's like free Anvils command? (ie: Longstrikes). And what's this additional drop to Longstrikes points? Do you mean in the future??

The battlion effect modify the shooting units' attack characteristics, adding 1, so for the longstrike, it will be the same as using Anvils ca without spending 1 cp. If we can fit the longstike into this list, then it will be very very good. Unfortunately not....

Edited June 15, 2019 by HammerOfSigmar

[crkhobbit]

140    Battalion: Vanguard Auxillary Chamber
100    Knight-Azyros
100    Knight-Azyros
100    Knight-Zephyros
180    Lord-Aquilor

160    Battalion: Vanguard Angelos Conclave
330    Vanguard-Hunters x5x3
180    Vanguard-Palladors

120    Battalion: Vanguard Justicar Conclave
150    Aetherwings x3
140    Hurricanes
140    Hurricanes
140    Hurricanes

I don't know if this is good or not.  One drop.  Start the game with 4 CP - not sure what you'd use it on.  Probably Astral Templars; not sure.

[HammerOfSigmar]

2 minutes ago, crkhobbit said:

140    Battalion: Vanguard Auxillary Chamber
100    Knight-Azyros
100    Knight-Azyros
100    Knight-Zephyros
180    Lord-Aquilor

160    Battalion: Vanguard Angelos Conclave
330    Vanguard-Hunters x5x3
180    Vanguard-Palladors

120    Battalion: Vanguard Justicar Conclave
150    Aetherwings x3
140    Hurricanes
140    Hurricanes
140    Hurricanes

I don't know if this is good or not.  One drop.  Start the game with 4 CP - not sure what you'd use it on.  Probably Astral Templars; not sure.

I have think of this list, there are several problems from my opinion, first this list have very few models, just 40. Secondly, I don't think this list can do much damage..

[crkhobbit]

oops

Edited June 15, 2019 by crkhobbit

[schwabbele]

Hmm couldn’t be more obvious that GW has probably a huge vanguard stock which they need to get rid of. 

Anyhow don’t need to buy anything new  at least. 

[The World Tree]

28 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Hmm couldn’t be more obvious that GW has probably a huge vanguard stock which they need to get rid of. 

Anyhow don’t need to buy anything new  at least. 

Well, Vanguard (beside raptors) haven't ever been good. It makes sense for them to give them reductions as that is what they need. Plus I'm still not convinced these changes actually improve them enough.

[Requizen]

4 hours ago, jhamslam said:

I have to disagree here mate. Having not seen the Fyreslayer, FEC and skaven changes its too soon to judge HOW good this is.

I will say this. They have nerfed a meta from nearly half a year ago that these days is barely good enough to crack 3-2 or 2-3 at GTs (Gav or Ballista Combo). SCE is NOT a high tier army, we were fairly Tier B (or even C). All these changes do is knock those already B tier lists down a peg. It doesnt touch Anvilstrike, but honestly given these changes thats ALL that will see play now.  

Haha dude no offense but that's a serious lack of perspective. In no world is SCE a C-tier or below army, calling them high-B-tier would already be underselling Stormcast. You know how many actual B- and C-tier armies there are out there? Ones that would kill for multiple 3-2 viable lists in their book, or a single 4-1 or 5-0 potential army? We have multiple lists that are viable to podium with good play. If you're not satisfied with that... I dunno what to tell you, bud.

I want you to go to someone who tries to competitively play an actual mid/low tier army like Wanderers, Free Peoples, Ironjawz, BCR, Slaves to Darkness, Nurgle, etc and tell them that Stormcast are too weak and are clearly a mid-tier army. See if they laugh in your face or not. 

[jhamslam]

17 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Haha dude no offense but that's a serious lack of perspective. In no world is SCE a C-tier or below army, calling them high-B-tier would already be underselling Stormcast. You know how many actual B- and C-tier armies there are out there? Ones that would kill for multiple 3-2 viable lists in their book, or a single 4-1 or 5-0 potential army? We have multiple lists that are viable to podium with good play. If you're not satisfied with that... I dunno what to tell you, bud.

I want you to go to someone who tries to competitively play an actual mid/low tier army like Wanderers, Free Peoples, Ironjawz, BCR, Slaves to Darkness, Nurgle, etc and tell them that Stormcast are too weak and are clearly a mid-tier army. See if they laugh in your face or not. 

Sure but the armies you mention that would "laugh in my face" are strictly non AoS 2.0 armies, which are definitely based on a newer, stronger scale. None of those armies you mentioned stack up well to anything since the Sacrosanct Chamber really. They dont even have overhauled battletomes like the ones we ve seen this year

You dont have to take my word for it. SCE since November last year has dropped to a 48% win rate (dont quote me but its aroun there) in major GTs. In terms of power creep, we simply lack the cost effectiveness (skaven) or force multipliers (FEC , or DoK) to make us good. Goodness, the best list we had barring anvilstrike was Gav (sequitors blocks with evo support), or Triple Ballista + Thundercats or Standiferd's Stardrake. The latter wouldnt last a second against the Gristlegore spams and the former two as i have said were barely cracking 3-2 at GTs with an auto loss on Total Commitment. 

SCE is a B tier army (which may change seeing everyone switch to anvilstrike and the response to it)  the ones who cant crack a 3-2 with "index armies"  are / were pretty much C tier.

Edited June 15, 2019 by jhamslam

[Requizen]

Just now, jhamslam said:

Sure but the armies you mention that would "laugh in my face" are strictly non AoS 2.0 armies, which are definitely based on a newer, stronger scale. None of those armies you mentioned stack up well to anything since the Sacrosanct Chamber really. 

You dont have to take my word for it. SCE since November last year has dropped to a 48% win rate (dont quote me but its aroun there) in major GTs. In terms of power creep, we simply lack the cost effectiveness (skaven) or force multipliers (FEC , or DoK) to make us good. Goodness the best list we had barring anvilstrike was Gav, or Triple Ballista + Thundercats or Standiferd's Stardrake. The latter wouldnt last a second against the Gristlegore spams and the last two as i have said were barely cracking 3-2 at GTs with an auto loss on total commitment.

SCE is a B tier army, the ones who cant crack a 3-2 are / were pretty much C tier

Ok, ask a Gloomspite Gitz player, or a Khorne player, or a Beasts of Chaos player. They all have pretty much exactly one top competitive build and then a bunch of 2-3/3-2 builds. Ask a Nighthaunt player, who don't even have one of those, or a Nurgle player, who also don't have one. All of those are AoS 2.0 books. They'll all wish they had the abilities and variety of Stormcast. 

This is the issue with Statistics. It's easy to look at the HWG stats and go "Oh no, we're trash! Call the fire brigade, I'm going to burn my army!", but the truth of the matter is that the statistics are pretty meaningless if you don't actually think about them. Stormcast are extremely overrepresented, which burns that number down a lot. Especially compared to something like DoK, which is heavily tilted towards the side of hardcore players picking up the army, rather than masses of casual players rocking them at mid tables at big events. 

Additionally, those types of stats only tell you what the current numbers are. It says nothing about potential or variable outcomes. Sometimes, people just don't play an army. And maybe that's because the army is bad, or maybe that's just because they want to play something else. A lot of top tier players who go to events could podium just as easy with Stormcast as they are with whatever they're playing, but this isn't a video game where switching to and from the new meta is just a click away.

The sky is not falling. Take a deep breath, and focus on figuring out ways to improve rather than whinging for buffs. 

[jhamslam]

2 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Ok, ask a Gloomspite Gitz player, or a Khorne player, or a Beasts of Chaos player. They all have pretty much exactly one top competitive build and then a bunch of 2-3/3-2 builds. Ask a Nighthaunt player, who don't even have one of those, or a Nurgle player, who also don't have one. All of those are AoS 2.0 books. They'll all wish they had the abilities and variety of Stormcast. 

This is the issue with Statistics. It's easy to look at the HWG stats and go "Oh no, we're trash! Call the fire brigade, I'm going to burn my army!", but the truth of the matter is that the statistics are pretty meaningless if you don't actually think about them. Stormcast are extremely overrepresented, which burns that number down a lot. Especially compared to something like DoK, which is heavily tilted towards the side of hardcore players picking up the army, rather than masses of casual players rocking them at mid tables at big events. 

Additionally, those types of stats only tell you what the current numbers are. It says nothing about potential or variable outcomes. Sometimes, people just don't play an army. And maybe that's because the army is bad, or maybe that's just because they want to play something else. A lot of top tier players who go to events could podium just as easy with Stormcast as they are with whatever they're playing, but this isn't a video game where switching to and from the new meta is just a click away.

The sky is not falling. Take a deep breath, and focus on figuring out ways to improve rather than whinging for buffs. 

Hey maybe youre right, maybe i am overreacting. 

On a personaly level, i dont feel much of a sting, since it left my recent foray into Anvilstrike relatively untouched. Just a bit salty/ sad to lose some of our good melee options i suppose.

Thanks for the perspective, i appreciate it

[stus67]

How do ya'll feel about replacing Evocators with the Paladin variants? If so which kind? I was thinking that the Protectors don't look that bad at the lower cost, but are still pretty pricey.

[FPC]

34 minutes ago, stus67 said:

How do ya'll feel about replacing Evocators with the Paladin variants? If so which kind? I was thinking that the Protectors don't look that bad at the lower cost, but are still pretty pricey.

Hordes of small bases aren’t uncommon. Decimators might not be so bad at carving up the likes of rats and such.

[ledha]

Did the stormcast endless spells had a point change ?

[FattBooM666]

9 hours ago, Roark said:

I was thinking the same thing. ie, something like this, but it's too hungry for command points and the magic defence is pretty sad:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Lord-Veritant (120)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura 
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Celestant (100)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Knight-Azyros (100)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Protectors (180)
- 2x Starsoul Maces
5 x Decimators (180)
- 2x Starsoul Maces
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
Skyborne Slayers (190)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110

 

Looks cool, but how would you play the army?
Im pretty new to the game (just started working on my gave list but as it sounds atm i might need to re think that)

[FattBooM666]

8 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

You can still sort of do it with Libs: Arcanum on GC, 20 Sequitors, 2x5 Libs, Incantor, Ordinator, 10 Evos and 4 Ballista comes to 2000 points exactly (suspiciously so).

Drop the Arcanum on foot and 1 Ballista gives you points for the Castellant and change for Endless Spells. Personally I’ve gone off the Castellant and like the Gryph. I’m 50-50 on 20 Sequitors and no shackles or 15 and shackles/swords.

 

Do you have any stormhost in this list?

[crkhobbit]

1 hour ago, stus67 said:

How do ya'll feel about replacing Evocators with the Paladin variants? If so which kind? I was thinking that the Protectors don't look that bad at the lower cost, but are still pretty pricey.

I haven't done math on all of them, but Retributors are still more expensive per point of expected damage done than Evocators.  IE., Evocators are a better better when only looking at damage done.

However, Evocators also have an unbind every turn, a spell every turn, they have a higher move stat, and they have 2" melee range.

I thought they were better when I was counting 2 attacks per star mace...

[HammerOfSigmar]

Even with this point changes, retributor still get outperform by evocators, Probably another 20 drops might change the difference. Protectors, from my previous calculation, is actually not very good. It should do a lot damage against monsters, however, it actually deal less than that retributor(not considering their point difference). Decimator might be more useful, since horde army are common nowadays, however, its lowmobility require some additional help to make it deadly.

Edited June 16, 2019 by HammerOfSigmar

[jhamslam]

31 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Even with this point changes, retributor still get outperform by evocators, Probably another 20 drops might change the difference. Protectors, from my previous calculation, is actually not very good. It should do a lot damage against monsters, however, it actually deal less than that retributor(not considering their point difference). Decimator might be more useful, since horde army are common nowadays, however, its lowmobility require some additional help to make it deadly.

Well if we do the calculation. lets say you have 10 retributors so 4 starsoul maces and 6 normal maces

Normal maces - 10 attacks - hits on 3s so avg 6 hits , - 1 rend, so on a 4+ save changed to 5+ , average 4-5 wounds for 2 damage each . Total 10 damage on average if im being generous.

Starsoul maces - Average roll is 3-4 meaning d3 mortal wounds for average 2 mortal wounds each. So 10+ 8 . On average 10 retributors will do 18 damage to something with a 4+ save.

With 10 evocators - 30 attacks with the 2'' Grandstave. 20 hits, 12-13 wounds on average. with a 4+ save on something theyre saving half so 6 go thru, total 12 damage.

Celestial lightning arc on evocators 20 dice , looking for 4+ so 10 on average. 12 + 10 = 22 damage total.

Yeah plus Evocators can cast blades on themselves to make wound rolls better and unbind spells. Its no contest really, its the sequitor / liberator problem all over again.