AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Bozly]

2 hours ago, crkhobbit said:

Don't discount the 30" range on the Longstrikes.  There will be times where your Hurricanes can't shoot because they aren't in range.  Or they aren't in range of the target that you really need dealt with.

Additionally, if you're 18" from the enemy, they're only 18" from you.  30" range is much safer.  Especially when you're paying that many points for so few wounds.

I'm not saying one is better than the other.  But it's real easy to get lost in the numbers without properly considering how it plays on the table..

 

Thats a really good point.

 

 

would you still run the list like that with the 20 sequitors or is there a different kind of list people run?

[PJetski]

Sequitors generally aren't worth running. In squads of 5 they are just expensive Liberators and in large squads they are less useful than getting the same points worth of Evocators instead.

[Qrepin]

1 hour ago, Bozly said:

 

Thats a really good point.

 

 

would you still run the list like that with the 20 sequitors or is there a different kind of list people run?

The only point to run blobs of 20 is in Hammers of Sigmar to resurrect them on a 5+. You probably don't need those in Anvils list.

[frostfire]

14 hours ago, PJetski said:

Sequitors generally aren't worth running. In squads of 5 they are just expensive Liberators and in large squads they are less useful than getting the same points worth of Evocators instead.

What about holding the line？

[Mark Williams]

28 minutes ago, frostfire said:

What about holding the line？

No need to hold a line if the enemy is dead. (Joke)

[PJetski]

4 hours ago, frostfire said:

What about holding the line？

You can spend 100 points on Liberators and have them die to stall the enemy for a turn.

Or you can spend 400 points on Sequitors and still lose them to Gristlegore terrorgheists, Idoneth eels, witch aelves, Tyrant Bloodthirsters, etc.

The choice is yours

[Lucur]

The difference between Sequitors and Liberators is that the former actually pose a threat. The damage output of Sequitors is near that of Retributors while offering more wounds and a rerollable save (or more damage output with rerolling hits).

[PJetski]

Comparing anything to Retributors is going to make them look good... Retributors are terrible and basically never worth using.

If you need a unit to deal damage you should take Evocators instead because their damage is incredible.

If you need a unit that just needs to take a bunch of hits you  should take Liberators because they are more cost effective. Liberators have the same durability versus shooting and mortal wounds, but they cost less.

The Sequitor niche is being a Liberator with more damage and rerolling saves in the combat phase. The problem is that niche isn't very useful - you still die in combat to big threats, and you could be doing more damage with another unit. Another big problem with large blocks of Sequitors is that they take up a lot of space and their weapons are only 1" reach so you rarely get all the attacks in that you want. What's the point of spending points upgrading your Liberators to do more damage if most of the models never get in range to do that damage?

Finally I think they are never worth taking unless they are filling a battleline slot, and most Arcanums are either overcosted and not worth using (LA, LATauralon) or only fit in very specific lists (LADracoline).

[Sleepa]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Finally I think they are never worth taking unless they are filling a battleline slot, and most Arcanums are either overcosted and not worth using (LA, LATauralon) or only fit in very specific lists (LADracoline).

Do you have any examples of competitive lists using a LA on Dracoline? I've been trying to tune a list with 6 kitties and it's been a struggle.

[PJetski]

Just now, Sleepa said:

Do you have any examples of competitive lists using a LA on Dracoline? I've been trying to tune a list with 6 kitties and it's been a struggle.

The core is something like this:

LAD
6x Dracoline
4x Ballista
Ordinator

Take either Celestial Vindicators for the insane command ability or Astral Templars for +1 hit against monsters

[Sleepa]

9 minutes ago, PJetski said:

LAD
6x Dracoline
4x Ballista
Ordinator

 

Ok I'm not far off. The last draft I had was AT (had previously tried CV and Anvils)

I was looking at running the meteor instead of a 4th Ballista. Is that at all viable?

Is Pride Leader hands-down the best mount trait for the LA?

[PJetski]

8 minutes ago, Sleepa said:

Ok I'm not far off. The last draft I had was AT (had previously tried CV and Anvils)

I was looking at running the meteor instead of a 4th Ballista. Is that at all viable?

Is Pride Leader hands-down the best mount trait for the LA?

The list already has a very low model count so taking the meteor for 100 points is questionable. You definitely want the Cogs so your Dracolines can activate them and get another spell and rerollable saves, and you definitely want to cast Azyrite Halo on that squad - that means to cast the meteor you would need to bring a third non-Evocator wizard, and that is starting to get really expensive. 

I think I would always rather have the Geminids than the Meteor - both have a huge threat range, both do ~d3 mortal wounds, but Geminids are 60pt cheaper, have crucial debuffs, and are predatory (useful to mitigate double turns)

Yes, Pride Leader is what pulls this list together, even in Astral Templars it's worth taking the +1 hit if only for the ballistas.

[Requizen]

16 minutes ago, Sleepa said:

Ok I'm not far off. The last draft I had was AT (had previously tried CV and Anvils)

I was looking at running the meteor instead of a 4th Ballista. Is that at all viable?

Is Pride Leader hands-down the best mount trait for the LA?

Comet vs Ballista is a bit of a toss up. They both have targets they're better against, and both have upsides and downsides.

The main downside of the Comet is that we don't have many (any) casting bonuses to get it off reliably, and many armies have strong dispel bonuses to stop it, so it can be very unreliable.  Not to mention we're generally not running a lot of Wizards, so if the ones we have go down early, or need to cast other things, those 100 points are dead in the water.

That said, it has the huge upside of being able to nuke multiple small heroes in a single go, which can really mess with enemy positioning. It can also potentially bop little Morathi before she can transform, dice depending. Take the risk/reward into account when you build.

Pride Leader is basically an autotake if you're running any number of other Dracolines. Otherwise, I think Bounding Leap offers a lot of flexibility.

[HammerOfSigmar]

Well, for the comet, I prefer take two wizard on the list, one stay away from 30" of any enemy wizard and then cast the comet, then if the enemy dispel it, there is great, I can cast it again, if the enemy do not dispel it, I will dispel it with my other wizard and cast it again. 

The major concern here is that it is a little difficult to stay 30" from any enemy wizard, and SCE don't have easy access to casting buff, so the comet is not very reliable.

[Sleepa]

11 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You definitely want the Cogs so your Dracolines can activate them and get another spell and rerollable saves, and you definitely want to cast Azyrite Halo on that squad - that means to cast the meteor you would need to bring a third non-Evocator wizard, and that is starting to get really expensive

Omg, I hadn't considered that Evos can manipulate the Cogs. They can't cast them though, correct? As I understand it, they can only ever cast Empower, or whatever they choose from the Lore of Invigoration. So Evos on Dracolines could turn the Cogs, then cast Empower and.... Celestial Blades on themselves? I'd need my LA to cast Azyrite Halo on them, unless I also took an Incantor. My concern with Geminids and Cogs is that they cast on a 7, and as Requizen mentioned; even the Meteor casting on a 6 can be unreliable. Have you found that Geminids and Cogs to be powerful enough to take the chance on, even if you can't resolve them? I imagine that you just invest those 100 points and try not to count on having the bonuses, but leverage them as best you can if they DO resolve?

 

7 minutes ago, Requizen said:

The main downside of the Comet is that we don't have many (any) casting bonuses to get it off reliably, and many armies have strong dispel bonuses to stop it, so it can be very unreliable. 

I was thinking that was actually the most reliable part of the comet, since it casts on a 6, and can be cast from the back line for a turn or two before my opponent can have wizards in range to unbind. I hear you though, the armies that are legitimately strong at casting/unbinding are a huge part of the meta right now, and I'd never expect to win in a casting battle. with SCE (We really just aren't a respectable magic army)

My current 2k draft is looking like this:
LA on Drac - Pride Leader (Whatever command trait for the Stormhost I choose)

Lord Ordinator

Knight Heraldor

Lord Relictor (Translocate, whatever artefact comes with the Stormhost)

Lord Castellant

5x Sequitors

5x Sequitors

5x Sequitors

3x Ballistas

6x Dracolines

1940 points.

I was planning to cut the Castellant for an Incantor, then cut the Relictor for some endless spells. I don't own a 4th Ballista, but if they don't get hit in the GHB 2019, and my older models don't become viable options, I'll probably buy another.

Any suggestions?

[PJetski]

Reliability is one of the main weaknesses of the Dracoline list, and one of the main reasons I don't run it as my main competitive list. The cogs are incredibly strong when they get cast, but casting on a 7 is like a coin flip.

I would cut the Relictor and swap the Sequitors for Liberators to shave some points - you don't need to add more melee damage to this list.

If you have an ordinator then the best 100 points you can spend is on another ballista.

If you go Astral Templars you should try to fit an Azyros in the list. If you go CV you can skip the Azyros.

[crkhobbit]

The level of hyperbole against Retributors and Sequitors in the last page or two is the kind that strongly encourages internet groupthink and a lack of innovation.

Retributors are very close to Evocators in damage dealt per point spent.  They're actually better per point (on average) against a 4+sv than Evocators with swords.  The complete dismissal seems excessive.

And a 20 block of Sequitors has no place in Anvilstrike.  But it's a very strong anvil unit that many lists will struggle against.  Worthy of consideration at the very least.

[Requizen]

11 minutes ago, crkhobbit said:

The level of hyperbole against Retributors and Sequitors in the last page or two is the kind that strongly encourages internet groupthink and a lack of innovation.

Retributors are very close to Evocators in damage dealt per point spent.  They're actually better per point (on average) against a 4+sv than Evocators with swords.  The complete dismissal seems excessive.

And a 20 block of Sequitors has no place in Anvilstrike.  But it's a very strong anvil unit that many lists will struggle against.  Worthy of consideration at the very least.

I agree that hyperbole is damaging to discussion, but there isn't much redeemable about Retributors. Damage per point is a fine number to look at, but practicality is something to take into consideration as well.

• 20 points extra doesn't seem like that much, but once you jump up to 10 models (which you will), 40 points can really make or break a list in the final stages.
• 1" reach on the weapons is absolutely brutal to try and make work with 40mm bases. Staff Evos getting 2" reach means you get two ranks of fighting, which is very important for positioning and piling in. 
• Mortal Wound output is potentially the most important part of this calculation. While flat damage output is nice, the MW damage is what often does the real punch of the unit. And (assuming a 10 man unit) 4 Starsoul Maces and some procs doesn't quite make up for Lightning Arc, which is incredibly busted. As with the second point, the strongest part of Lightning Arc isn't the pure numbers, but the numbers + the range. Rets bringing all Maces and Hammers to bear on a target for max MW damage can be difficult depending on what you're trying to fight and how the charge went. Lightning Arc doesn't care. Tag them with one Evo, blast the unit with an average of 10 MWs. Rets get higher average MWs if they all get to attack - but unless you're Gav charging, getting all 10 models to fight a specific target can be extremely difficult, especially if it's a Monster with some Bubble Wrap or in terrain. 
• Not to mention the secondary bonus of the Wizard keyword, such as PoAP scoring, Unbinding, and Dispelling.

Sequitors are a solid unit worth consideration in many SCE lists, but Retributors are straight outclassed. Maybe if you could take them in Skyborne Slayers, they'd be noteworthy, but alas, it wasn't meant to be.

[PJetski]

Retributors are significantly less efficient than Evocators even without Empower.

Even in their optimal niche of fighting a 2+ save enemy with 4 Starsouls equipped, Evocators with Grandstaves are still ~10% more efficient than Retributors.

(I did this fairly quickly so there could be mistakes)

This doesn't even consider other considerations, like weapon range, unbinding/dispelling potential, buffing themselves or another unit, mortal wounds happening AFTER the attack and to any unit within 3"... 

Edited June 4, 2019 by PJetski

[Adolmaea]

Hello everyone, a question there. As far as I can tell, among all Stormhosts only Anvils of the Heldenhammer seems quite popular and Hammer of Sigmar - somewhat. Is there anyone, playing with Tempest Lords - in case there are, what army lists are You using with that Stormhost? 

Edited June 4, 2019 by Adolmaea

[HammerOfSigmar]

9 minutes ago, Adolmaea said:

Hello everyone, a question there. As far as I can tell, among all Stormhosts only Anvils of the Heldenhammer seems quite popular and Hammer of Sigmar - somewhat. Is there anyone, playing with Tempest Lords - in case there are, what army lists are You using with that Stormhost? 

I have two builds on the tempest lord, both are not  competitive

One is built around the soul war kit,  the key point is to use the LAoGC's CA repeatedly to make a power blob of sequitor or evocator to blast out the enemy

The other one is built mostly around the vanguard chamber, use the aquilor's ca to relocate the raptor and pallador all the time to take advantage

[crkhobbit]

 

7 hours ago, PJetski said:

Retributors are significantly less efficient than Evocators even without Empower.

Even in their optimal niche of fighting a 2+ save enemy with 4 Starsouls equipped, Evocators with Grandstaves are still ~10% more efficient than Retributors.

(I did this fairly quickly so there could be mistakes)

This doesn't even consider other considerations, like weapon range, unbinding/dispelling potential, buffing themselves or another unit, mortal wounds happening AFTER the attack and to any unit within 3"... 

 

You're missing a lot of mortals for Retributors, which are throwing off your points per damage numbers.

Retributors are actually a better buy when looking at points per damage for anything better than a 4+.

Again, Evocators are obviously better overall and for other reasons.  My entire point is that Retributors shouldn't be ignored without looking at them properly.  Especially since a points change to one or both units might happen this month.

Edited June 5, 2019 by crkhobbit

[frostfire]

5 Evocators do: 16 attacks, 3+/3+, no rend, 2 damages each, with 5 mortal wounds, that’s 12.11 damages against 4+ save. 

5 Retributors do: 11 attacks, 3+/3+, 1 rend, 2 damaged each, with their weapon ability causing 4 mortal wounds that’s 8.88 damages against 4+ save.

If you take 2 starsoul maces, Retributors may do more mortal wounds, but will also be outclassed by Evocators in normal damages output, not to mention their weapon range, magic ability and stuff.

IMHO unless Retributors get significantly points drop, I can’t see any reasons to bring them instead of Evocators.

 

[Luke.w]

4 hours ago, crkhobbit said:

 

 

You're missing a lot of mortals for Retributors, which are throwing off your points per damage numbers.

Retributors are actually a better buy when looking at points per damage for anything better than a 4+.

Again, Evocators are obviously better overall and for other reasons.  My entire point is that Retributors shouldn't be ignored without looking at them properly.  Especially since a points change to one or both units might happen this month.

You have starsoul maces doing 2 'attacks' each. They only get one roll for MW

[crkhobbit]

4 hours ago, Luke.w said:

You have starsoul maces doing 2 'attacks' each. They only get one roll for MW

Felt like I've been missing something. And there it is. Thanks.