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AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you personally were bad. It is more of a useful fiction for maximising the tome, if you assume you are the problem and question your own thoughts when building your list it should work out that you get more imaginative results and sometimes those results are very good. 

I think SCE like Space Marines where the fluff sometimes covers up what is actually happening in the story, and fluff for good or for ill colours how people perceive rules. In almost every action SCE are fighting some sort of desperate battle against the odds, where they don't have as many resources as they would like, but are individually so capable that it always gives them a chance at victory. Usually this is at great personal cost, as the reforging fluff demonstrates to great affect.

Translated that to game play and to me I see the units much different that other people people perhaps do. Individual stormcasts, and retinues will die without a doubt, the questions is will they achieve the objective before they go up in lightning.

So how do we look at the game through that lens?

-To win the game you generally need to score the majority of objectives 3 of 5 turns, but for stormcasts you should look at it as the opponent can control the majority of objectives for 2 turns. To be clear you can't control 0 objectives in multi objective games, just don't need a majority. 

- Everything is disposable, the army doesn't function as a preserve the force style set up, its too easy in AoS2.0 for factions to focus their killing power into a fine point and delete a unit, especially combat units. Even units of 20 sequitors can be removed in a single go, I've done it personally with IDK, DoK, HoS, and MK. That isn't a fault of SCE, or a bug in the game its a feature. So you need to question if that is a good use of your very limited resources, if your unmovable object just isn't unmovable in the face of general unstoppable forces available to factions.

- From this perspective I love the liberator, they cover more space than 5 models have any business doing, they take dedicated effort to remove in one go, are battleline, and pretty cheap as far as modern battleline go. The most interesting thing about them is that more is not necessarily better, and frequently it is worse.

Personally I think it is probably about time for the majority of the wisdom in this thread to burn and for a new philosophy to come through that might open up the book a bit. I will say that is is quite clear that a lot of the original SCE content is just not mechanically appropriate for AoS2 anymore, and the book is showing its lineage a bit, similar to Khorne. On the other hand most factions if we are talking about competition really only skim the top 10% of their content as well, its just that SCE have SO much that it looks shocking in comparison

I do agree with @PJetski that there are probably 4-5 meta dependant builds in the book that are sitting beneath the global meta builds. 

Honestly the last thing i want is for SCE to turn into fantasy space marines . as useless in AOS as they are in 40k. And if the points costs for some of our units dont go down well...

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On 5/27/2019 at 7:43 AM, Mark Williams said:

If the theory that the army is good, and I’m what’s bad, were true. There would be more evidence pointing to that. Other SCE players would be placing better, and I, placing mediocre, would be an exception. 

I'm #1 in my country and top 10 ITC world (on track to be #1) with a 15-0 record playing only Stormcast this year. Is that sufficient evidence?

It's not the army, it's the players. Stormcast are not an easy army to play well in this meta, but they can definitely crush the other top armies if you do it right. 

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I'm thinking of popping in the Soulscream Bridge in my Anvilstrike list. Can either use as a backup teleport to Translocation, or as large blocking "terrain" to keep them safe by zoning off charges. 

Otherwise I've been fiddling with Gav bombs again. There's a lot of bubble wrapping in the game, but I think with the right setup and variable layer charges (rather than Alphaing in everything at once), you could end up doing well. I'm feeling that heavier on Sequitors than Evos is the better way to go.

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8 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

What does their army look like. Context is important.

I started typing up a very thorough reply, but the context is this statement: "Other SCE players would be placing better".  And the response to that statement is this evidence that other SCE players are placing better.

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18 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I'm thinking of popping in the Soulscream Bridge in my Anvilstrike list. Can either use as a backup teleport to Translocation, or as large blocking "terrain" to keep them safe by zoning off charges. 

Otherwise I've been fiddling with Gav bombs again. There's a lot of bubble wrapping in the game, but I think with the right setup and variable layer charges (rather than Alphaing in everything at once), you could end up doing well. I'm feeling that heavier on Sequitors than Evos is the better way to go.

Did you consider the soulseeker for seq/evo? With the soulseeker and heraldor, the threat range in 12"+D6"+5"+2D6"=17+3D6", in average 27", which is a lot. Thanks to cycle of storm, SCE don't need to pay the shipping fee.

Edited by HammerOfSigmar
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15 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I'm thinking of popping in the Soulscream Bridge in my Anvilstrike list. Can either use as a backup teleport to Translocation, or as large blocking "terrain" to keep them safe by zoning off charges. 

Otherwise I've been fiddling with Gav bombs again. There's a lot of bubble wrapping in the game, but I think with the right setup and variable layer charges (rather than Alphaing in everything at once), you could end up doing well. I'm feeling that heavier on Sequitors than Evos is the better way to go.

Based on my recent experiences a very heavy seq/evo gav list would have at least ensured I spent my time fighting at the top tables, instead of the middle and lower ones.  The games I lost would have been much easier if not auto wins, so I’m thinking of building the same sort of list that you’re describing.

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6 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Did you consider the soulseeker for seq/evo? With the soulseeker and heraldor, the threat range in 12"+D6"+5"+2D6"=17+3D6", in average 27", which is a lot. Thanks to cycle of storm, SCE don't need to pay the shipping fee.

Someone more bored than I am should figure out how many 50mm bases can fit wholly within Lauchon's base.

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7 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Based on my recent experiences a very heavy seq/evo gav list would have at least ensured I spent my time fighting at the top tables, instead of the middle and lower ones.  The games I lost would have been much easier if not auto wins, so I’m thinking of building the same sort of list that you’re describing.

I don't want to be that guy, but just changing your list will not ensure you fight at the top tables, and will not automatically produce auto-wins.

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Assuming you have a Lord-Arcanum, and you make the 6+ cast (72% before modifiers and unbinding), and you have the perfect undisturbed deployment, then you can fit ~18 models max on 40mm bases in Lauchons boat so the biggest unit we can take is 15. Slamming 15 Evocators into your opponent turn 1 after buffing in the hero phase is quite interesting... but it can already be done with Astral Templars and Hammers of Sigmar - is there potential for a different Stormhost (or Staunch?) to utilize this?

Maybe after GHB sees Paladin drop in points  I could see the Hammerstrike Force being a thing with Lauchon - buff up in the hero phase, then turn 1 charge a bunch of Paladins. Seems a lot cheaper than the Gavriel bomb, which means you can still add a lot of shooting and stay flexible instead of going all-in.

With a Lord-Arcanum you can avoid paying the toll and transport single model units. Is there a hero with a base that can fit that really wants to take advantage of that kind of mobility?

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15 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Did you consider the soulseeker for seq/evo? With the soulseeker and heraldor, the threat range in 12"+D6"+5"+2D6"=17+3D6", in average 27", which is a lot. Thanks to cycle of storm, SCE don't need to pay the shipping fee.

I believe you can't fit a full 20 man unit around Lauchon on 40mm bases, iirc it maxes out at 19 if you do it micrometer-perfect, though I'll  double check when I get home. However, as you say, that's a very large distance. Gav requires more building around but is more reliable, Lauchon is (relatively) cheaper though is basically a one-off that is not as reliable (has to be cast, can be shut down by enemy casting Lauchon) and has a kickback. 

Also that's not how Cycle of the Storm works. Lauchon immediately slays a model, so while you can heal it for 1 wound, it is still removed from play. There's a difference between being removed from play from losing wounds and just being removed from play. Edit: reread the warscroll, that's quite interesting. 

13 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Based on my recent experiences a very heavy seq/evo gav list would have at least ensured I spent my time fighting at the top tables, instead of the middle and lower ones.  The games I lost would have been much easier if not auto wins, so I’m thinking of building the same sort of list that you’re describing.

What are you currently running?

I think including at least one Evo unit with Gav is almost necessary still, since sometimes you need that smash punch with him to just instagib something. 

Edited by Requizen
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2 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Also that's not how Cycle of the Storm works. Lauchon immediately slays a model, so while you can heal it for 1 wound, it is still removed from play. There's a difference between being removed from play from losing wounds and just being removed from play.

Looking at the way these abilities are worded I can't see any reason why Cycle would not stop the model being slain by Lauchon.

 

lauchon.png

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Just now, PJetski said:

Looking at the way these abilities are worded I can't see any reason why Cycle would not stop the model being slain by Lauchon.

 

 

Yeah I re-read and edited my post. I thought it read "heal a wound when the last would be taken" not "instead of removing", which is a big difference.

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Are there any Stormcast units that really want to move in the hero phase? You could use Lauchon to teleport heroes forward before casting spells and toss endless spells point-blank, then move backwards... or teleport backwards with the Soulscream Bridge?

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4 hours ago, PJetski said:

I'm #1 in my country and top 10 ITC world (on track to be #1) with a 15-0 record playing only Stormcast this year. Is that sufficient evidence?

It's not the army, it's the players. Stormcast are not an easy army to play well in this meta, but they can definitely crush the other top armies if you do it right. 

Really nice Performance, would you mind sharing what list you primarily use?

I'm a new player and would apreciate to see what Kind of lists are doing well in the meta  :)

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23 minutes ago, crkhobbit said:

I don't want to be that guy, but just changing your list will not ensure you fight at the top tables, and will not automatically produce auto-wins.

I suppose I wasn't clear enough. Against 4 of the people I played against, it would've auto won. Those games, instead, were struggles just to fiend off opponents. If I take a different, better list, I would win more games, and I would have, of course, played different opponents, and had different results and different problems. This doesn't invalidate or disprove what I said.

Edited by Mark Williams
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52 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I'm thinking of popping in the Soulscream Bridge in my Anvilstrike list. Can either use as a backup teleport to Translocation, or as large blocking "terrain" to keep them safe by zoning off charges. 

Otherwise I've been fiddling with Gav bombs again. There's a lot of bubble wrapping in the game, but I think with the right setup and variable layer charges (rather than Alphaing in everything at once), you could end up doing well. I'm feeling that heavier on Sequitors than Evos is the better way to go.

Ive been going back and forth with anvil strike and a Hammers of sigmar Gav Bomb Detachment + Heavy Support Ballista Detachment. 

Had some games this past weekend, Skaven are .....too much. I have never seen an army that can bring a strong melee, shooting AND magic component at the same time, even we have to make sacrifices to bring one or the other. Holy hell that book and their points costs is f-in stupid af (Arcanum at 240 and Verminlord at 260, wtf) . I just cant kill enough things in enough time before he overwhelms me. The game here felt closer than it probably was :(

Beat a gristlegore list tho. Skinks and Aetherwings were MVPs in that matchup. Unbinding Unhholy Vitality (5+ FNP) is a must. After that Gav and Ballistas wrap up the monsters.

Faced Khorne, no problem at all. He was heavy on the blood warriors and slaughterpriests, snipe those two and we're good.

Faced Fyreslayers, man that 4+ FNP is bs, took some time to kill his heroes while sequitors held and then destroyed his berzerkers using ballistas and evos.

Soulsnare shackles was also huge. For 20 points getting a chance to slow down alpha strikes and far moving units is not too bad. On the fyreslayers i just felt bad for the guy, dwarves moving a measly 2''.

Idk what to think about the new Shards of Valaghar, seems quite good to slow down enemy movement

 

Edited by jhamslam
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42 minutes ago, Requizen said:

What are you currently running?

I think including at least one Evo unit with Gav is almost necessary still, since sometimes you need that smash punch with him to just instagib something. 

I've run several different variations over the past year and a half. The lists that I've had the best results with have been hybrid lists, which had a balance of shooting and assault.

The list I took most recently was an experiment, where I went completely shooting, with almost no assault or ground force. That list didn't do well because I was unable to generate enough damage and push people away quickly enough. That list would have worked if the games lasted longer, and missions weren't as favorable towards aggressive armies. A defensive, shooting army doesn't get ahead on points early enough in the game, and it's difficult to come back from that quickly enough. But I think if games lasted longer or win conditions were different, an army like that might do well. I was doing very well in terms of kill points in all of my missions with a shooting list, but I was losing the missions anyway due to losing initiative in moving forward and capturing objectives. If more missions were KP based, a shooting army I think would do very well in the meta.

This is my current "balance" list that I've been taking to friendly matchups, and it's been doing very well against a wide variety of opponents. It doesn't have much of an answer against some of the best armies out there, however. I don't know what to do about that except to just take a different list/stormhost.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Castellant (100)
-
 General
- Trait: We Cannot Fail 
- Artefact: God-forged Blade 
Gavriel Sureheart (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
-
 Spell: Azyrite Halo
Celestant-Prime (340)

Battleline
10 x Liberators (200)
-
 Warhammer & Shield
- 2x Grandhammers
5 x Sequitors (120)
-
 Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Judicators (160)
-
 Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
5 x Judicators (160)
-
 Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows

Units
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (180)
5 x Evocators (200)
-
 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Terrifying Aspect

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Endless Spells
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108

I think, at this point, if I were to try to move into a more competitive list, I would need to have a Lord Arcanum general, and start replacing many elements of the list with large amounts of sequitors. At some point, the celestant prime would need to go as well. He is a good unit and does well, but he is fragile and fails to earn his points back in too many games.

The above list, however, is very fun for me to play. I get a lot of enjoyment out of it, and it has a lot of bells and whistles. In terms of enjoyment, I wouldn't change a thing.

I just wish many of the units were cheaper, so that I could get more bodies on the table while playing the same type of game. If the GHB19 reduces the cost on some of the units I'm using, then I might stick with the theme and just attack some of the weaknesses in it, mainly bodies.

 

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5 hours ago, PJetski said:

I'm #1 in my country and top 10 ITC world (on track to be #1) with a 15-0 record playing only Stormcast this year. Is that sufficient evidence?

It's not the army, it's the players. Stormcast are not an easy army to play well in this meta, but they can definitely crush the other top armies if you do it right. 

Hey, will be very interested to see your go to list :) !!

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1 hour ago, jhamslam said:

Had some games this past weekend, Skaven are .....too much. I have never seen an army that can bring a strong melee, shooting AND magic component at the same time, even we have to make sacrifices to bring one or the other. Holy hell that book and their points costs is f-in stupid af (Arcanum at 240 and Verminlord at 260, wtf) . I just cant kill enough things in enough time before he overwhelms me. The game here felt closer than it probably was :(

My experience fighting them too. There's not a lot of weaknesses there, just strength after strength in every phase.

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I need some help dealing with Nighthaunt. I mostly play against one Nighthaunt opponent and I have been struggling against his list. He run 3x9 spirit host with 2 mourngul, lady Olynder and a lord executioner equipped with lens of refraction. The fact that his whole army ignores rend and dish mostly mortal wounds seems to hard counter everything I trow at him.

Any tips on handling that opponent as a stormcast. Tonight I tried an big phalanx comp with teleports.  It went OK at first, one brick of sequitor with empower and the vindicator CA almost wiped a whole unit of spirit host in one sweep but I eventually got overwhelmed. This is what I used :

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Trait: Single-minded Fury
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Vexillor (120)
- Pennant of the Stormbringer
- Treasured Standard (Artefact): Pennant of Sigmaron
Knight-Heraldor (100)

Battleline
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields

Units
5 x Evocators (200)
5 x Evocators (200)

Battalions
Cleansing Phalanx (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 142

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@Ozzy0sbI have noticed you have fewer drops than your friend  so you get to decide who has the first turn. I would recommend giving NH the first turn, keeping distance so they wouldn't be able to charge your units T1 and wouldn't get double turn. Make them come closer to you,  and you empower your troops and charge with them all. Usually it will hit REALLY hard. And if you get double turn I believe there wouldn't be too many of NH left. 

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