jhamslam Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 3 hours ago, whispersofblood said: Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you personally were bad. It is more of a useful fiction for maximising the tome, if you assume you are the problem and question your own thoughts when building your list it should work out that you get more imaginative results and sometimes those results are very good. I think SCE like Space Marines where the fluff sometimes covers up what is actually happening in the story, and fluff for good or for ill colours how people perceive rules. In almost every action SCE are fighting some sort of desperate battle against the odds, where they don't have as many resources as they would like, but are individually so capable that it always gives them a chance at victory. Usually this is at great personal cost, as the reforging fluff demonstrates to great affect. Translated that to game play and to me I see the units much different that other people people perhaps do. Individual stormcasts, and retinues will die without a doubt, the questions is will they achieve the objective before they go up in lightning. So how do we look at the game through that lens? -To win the game you generally need to score the majority of objectives 3 of 5 turns, but for stormcasts you should look at it as the opponent can control the majority of objectives for 2 turns. To be clear you can't control 0 objectives in multi objective games, just don't need a majority. - Everything is disposable, the army doesn't function as a preserve the force style set up, its too easy in AoS2.0 for factions to focus their killing power into a fine point and delete a unit, especially combat units. Even units of 20 sequitors can be removed in a single go, I've done it personally with IDK, DoK, HoS, and MK. That isn't a fault of SCE, or a bug in the game its a feature. So you need to question if that is a good use of your very limited resources, if your unmovable object just isn't unmovable in the face of general unstoppable forces available to factions. - From this perspective I love the liberator, they cover more space than 5 models have any business doing, they take dedicated effort to remove in one go, are battleline, and pretty cheap as far as modern battleline go. The most interesting thing about them is that more is not necessarily better, and frequently it is worse. Personally I think it is probably about time for the majority of the wisdom in this thread to burn and for a new philosophy to come through that might open up the book a bit. I will say that is is quite clear that a lot of the original SCE content is just not mechanically appropriate for AoS2 anymore, and the book is showing its lineage a bit, similar to Khorne. On the other hand most factions if we are talking about competition really only skim the top 10% of their content as well, its just that SCE have SO much that it looks shocking in comparison I do agree with @PJetski that there are probably 4-5 meta dependant builds in the book that are sitting beneath the global meta builds. Honestly the last thing i want is for SCE to turn into fantasy space marines . as useless in AOS as they are in 40k. And if the points costs for some of our units dont go down well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 On 5/27/2019 at 7:43 AM, Mark Williams said: If the theory that the army is good, and I’m what’s bad, were true. There would be more evidence pointing to that. Other SCE players would be placing better, and I, placing mediocre, would be an exception. I'm #1 in my country and top 10 ITC world (on track to be #1) with a 15-0 record playing only Stormcast this year. Is that sufficient evidence? It's not the army, it's the players. Stormcast are not an easy army to play well in this meta, but they can definitely crush the other top armies if you do it right. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Made me curious, so I looked it up. In addition to PJetski, current ITC 5th place has also only played SCE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 24 minutes ago, crkhobbit said: Made me curious, so I looked it up. In addition to PJetski, current ITC 5th place has also only played SCE. What does their army look like. Context is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 I'm thinking of popping in the Soulscream Bridge in my Anvilstrike list. Can either use as a backup teleport to Translocation, or as large blocking "terrain" to keep them safe by zoning off charges. Otherwise I've been fiddling with Gav bombs again. There's a lot of bubble wrapping in the game, but I think with the right setup and variable layer charges (rather than Alphaing in everything at once), you could end up doing well. I'm feeling that heavier on Sequitors than Evos is the better way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 8 minutes ago, Mark Williams said: What does their army look like. Context is important. I started typing up a very thorough reply, but the context is this statement: "Other SCE players would be placing better". And the response to that statement is this evidence that other SCE players are placing better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerOfSigmar Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Requizen said: I'm thinking of popping in the Soulscream Bridge in my Anvilstrike list. Can either use as a backup teleport to Translocation, or as large blocking "terrain" to keep them safe by zoning off charges. Otherwise I've been fiddling with Gav bombs again. There's a lot of bubble wrapping in the game, but I think with the right setup and variable layer charges (rather than Alphaing in everything at once), you could end up doing well. I'm feeling that heavier on Sequitors than Evos is the better way to go. Did you consider the soulseeker for seq/evo? With the soulseeker and heraldor, the threat range in 12"+D6"+5"+2D6"=17+3D6", in average 27", which is a lot. Thanks to cycle of storm, SCE don't need to pay the shipping fee. Edited May 28, 2019 by HammerOfSigmar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 15 minutes ago, Requizen said: I'm thinking of popping in the Soulscream Bridge in my Anvilstrike list. Can either use as a backup teleport to Translocation, or as large blocking "terrain" to keep them safe by zoning off charges. Otherwise I've been fiddling with Gav bombs again. There's a lot of bubble wrapping in the game, but I think with the right setup and variable layer charges (rather than Alphaing in everything at once), you could end up doing well. I'm feeling that heavier on Sequitors than Evos is the better way to go. Based on my recent experiences a very heavy seq/evo gav list would have at least ensured I spent my time fighting at the top tables, instead of the middle and lower ones. The games I lost would have been much easier if not auto wins, so I’m thinking of building the same sort of list that you’re describing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said: Did you consider the soulseeker for seq/evo? With the soulseeker and heraldor, the threat range in 12"+D6"+5"+2D6"=17+3D6", in average 27", which is a lot. Thanks to cycle of storm, SCE don't need to pay the shipping fee. Someone more bored than I am should figure out how many 50mm bases can fit wholly within Lauchon's base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerOfSigmar Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Just now, crkhobbit said: Someone more bored than I am should figure out how many 50mm bases can fit wholly within Lauchon's base. I think someone did it in the rumor thread, you can fit in 15 40mm model actually. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, Mark Williams said: Based on my recent experiences a very heavy seq/evo gav list would have at least ensured I spent my time fighting at the top tables, instead of the middle and lower ones. The games I lost would have been much easier if not auto wins, so I’m thinking of building the same sort of list that you’re describing. I don't want to be that guy, but just changing your list will not ensure you fight at the top tables, and will not automatically produce auto-wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Assuming you have a Lord-Arcanum, and you make the 6+ cast (72% before modifiers and unbinding), and you have the perfect undisturbed deployment, then you can fit ~18 models max on 40mm bases in Lauchons boat so the biggest unit we can take is 15. Slamming 15 Evocators into your opponent turn 1 after buffing in the hero phase is quite interesting... but it can already be done with Astral Templars and Hammers of Sigmar - is there potential for a different Stormhost (or Staunch?) to utilize this? Maybe after GHB sees Paladin drop in points I could see the Hammerstrike Force being a thing with Lauchon - buff up in the hero phase, then turn 1 charge a bunch of Paladins. Seems a lot cheaper than the Gavriel bomb, which means you can still add a lot of shooting and stay flexible instead of going all-in. With a Lord-Arcanum you can avoid paying the toll and transport single model units. Is there a hero with a base that can fit that really wants to take advantage of that kind of mobility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said: Did you consider the soulseeker for seq/evo? With the soulseeker and heraldor, the threat range in 12"+D6"+5"+2D6"=17+3D6", in average 27", which is a lot. Thanks to cycle of storm, SCE don't need to pay the shipping fee. I believe you can't fit a full 20 man unit around Lauchon on 40mm bases, iirc it maxes out at 19 if you do it micrometer-perfect, though I'll double check when I get home. However, as you say, that's a very large distance. Gav requires more building around but is more reliable, Lauchon is (relatively) cheaper though is basically a one-off that is not as reliable (has to be cast, can be shut down by enemy casting Lauchon) and has a kickback. Also that's not how Cycle of the Storm works. Lauchon immediately slays a model, so while you can heal it for 1 wound, it is still removed from play. There's a difference between being removed from play from losing wounds and just being removed from play. Edit: reread the warscroll, that's quite interesting. 13 minutes ago, Mark Williams said: Based on my recent experiences a very heavy seq/evo gav list would have at least ensured I spent my time fighting at the top tables, instead of the middle and lower ones. The games I lost would have been much easier if not auto wins, so I’m thinking of building the same sort of list that you’re describing. What are you currently running? I think including at least one Evo unit with Gav is almost necessary still, since sometimes you need that smash punch with him to just instagib something. Edited May 28, 2019 by Requizen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Requizen said: Also that's not how Cycle of the Storm works. Lauchon immediately slays a model, so while you can heal it for 1 wound, it is still removed from play. There's a difference between being removed from play from losing wounds and just being removed from play. Looking at the way these abilities are worded I can't see any reason why Cycle would not stop the model being slain by Lauchon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Just now, PJetski said: Looking at the way these abilities are worded I can't see any reason why Cycle would not stop the model being slain by Lauchon. Yeah I re-read and edited my post. I thought it read "heal a wound when the last would be taken" not "instead of removing", which is a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Are there any Stormcast units that really want to move in the hero phase? You could use Lauchon to teleport heroes forward before casting spells and toss endless spells point-blank, then move backwards... or teleport backwards with the Soulscream Bridge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grudgebearer Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 4 hours ago, PJetski said: I'm #1 in my country and top 10 ITC world (on track to be #1) with a 15-0 record playing only Stormcast this year. Is that sufficient evidence? It's not the army, it's the players. Stormcast are not an easy army to play well in this meta, but they can definitely crush the other top armies if you do it right. Really nice Performance, would you mind sharing what list you primarily use? I'm a new player and would apreciate to see what Kind of lists are doing well in the meta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, crkhobbit said: I don't want to be that guy, but just changing your list will not ensure you fight at the top tables, and will not automatically produce auto-wins. I suppose I wasn't clear enough. Against 4 of the people I played against, it would've auto won. Those games, instead, were struggles just to fiend off opponents. If I take a different, better list, I would win more games, and I would have, of course, played different opponents, and had different results and different problems. This doesn't invalidate or disprove what I said. Edited May 28, 2019 by Mark Williams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Requizen said: I'm thinking of popping in the Soulscream Bridge in my Anvilstrike list. Can either use as a backup teleport to Translocation, or as large blocking "terrain" to keep them safe by zoning off charges. Otherwise I've been fiddling with Gav bombs again. There's a lot of bubble wrapping in the game, but I think with the right setup and variable layer charges (rather than Alphaing in everything at once), you could end up doing well. I'm feeling that heavier on Sequitors than Evos is the better way to go. Ive been going back and forth with anvil strike and a Hammers of sigmar Gav Bomb Detachment + Heavy Support Ballista Detachment. Had some games this past weekend, Skaven are .....too much. I have never seen an army that can bring a strong melee, shooting AND magic component at the same time, even we have to make sacrifices to bring one or the other. Holy hell that book and their points costs is f-in stupid af (Arcanum at 240 and Verminlord at 260, wtf) . I just cant kill enough things in enough time before he overwhelms me. The game here felt closer than it probably was Beat a gristlegore list tho. Skinks and Aetherwings were MVPs in that matchup. Unbinding Unhholy Vitality (5+ FNP) is a must. After that Gav and Ballistas wrap up the monsters. Faced Khorne, no problem at all. He was heavy on the blood warriors and slaughterpriests, snipe those two and we're good. Faced Fyreslayers, man that 4+ FNP is bs, took some time to kill his heroes while sequitors held and then destroyed his berzerkers using ballistas and evos. Soulsnare shackles was also huge. For 20 points getting a chance to slow down alpha strikes and far moving units is not too bad. On the fyreslayers i just felt bad for the guy, dwarves moving a measly 2''. Idk what to think about the new Shards of Valaghar, seems quite good to slow down enemy movement Edited May 28, 2019 by jhamslam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 42 minutes ago, Requizen said: What are you currently running? I think including at least one Evo unit with Gav is almost necessary still, since sometimes you need that smash punch with him to just instagib something. I've run several different variations over the past year and a half. The lists that I've had the best results with have been hybrid lists, which had a balance of shooting and assault. The list I took most recently was an experiment, where I went completely shooting, with almost no assault or ground force. That list didn't do well because I was unable to generate enough damage and push people away quickly enough. That list would have worked if the games lasted longer, and missions weren't as favorable towards aggressive armies. A defensive, shooting army doesn't get ahead on points early enough in the game, and it's difficult to come back from that quickly enough. But I think if games lasted longer or win conditions were different, an army like that might do well. I was doing very well in terms of kill points in all of my missions with a shooting list, but I was losing the missions anyway due to losing initiative in moving forward and capturing objectives. If more missions were KP based, a shooting army I think would do very well in the meta. This is my current "balance" list that I've been taking to friendly matchups, and it's been doing very well against a wide variety of opponents. It doesn't have much of an answer against some of the best armies out there, however. I don't know what to do about that except to just take a different list/stormhost. Spoiler Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Hammers of SigmarMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersLord-Castellant (100)- General- Trait: We Cannot Fail - Artefact: God-forged Blade Gavriel Sureheart (100)Knight-Incantor (140)- Spell: Azyrite HaloCelestant-Prime (340)Battleline10 x Liberators (200)- Warhammer & Shield- 2x Grandhammers5 x Sequitors (120)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt CrossbowsUnits3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (180)5 x Evocators (200)- 5x Grandstaves- Lore of Invigoration: Terrifying AspectWar MachinesCelestar Ballista (100)Endless SpellsEverblaze Comet (100)Total: 1950 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 108 I think, at this point, if I were to try to move into a more competitive list, I would need to have a Lord Arcanum general, and start replacing many elements of the list with large amounts of sequitors. At some point, the celestant prime would need to go as well. He is a good unit and does well, but he is fragile and fails to earn his points back in too many games. The above list, however, is very fun for me to play. I get a lot of enjoyment out of it, and it has a lot of bells and whistles. In terms of enjoyment, I wouldn't change a thing. I just wish many of the units were cheaper, so that I could get more bodies on the table while playing the same type of game. If the GHB19 reduces the cost on some of the units I'm using, then I might stick with the theme and just attack some of the weaknesses in it, mainly bodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven_lord Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 5 hours ago, PJetski said: I'm #1 in my country and top 10 ITC world (on track to be #1) with a 15-0 record playing only Stormcast this year. Is that sufficient evidence? It's not the army, it's the players. Stormcast are not an easy army to play well in this meta, but they can definitely crush the other top armies if you do it right. Hey, will be very interested to see your go to list !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 1 hour ago, jhamslam said: Had some games this past weekend, Skaven are .....too much. I have never seen an army that can bring a strong melee, shooting AND magic component at the same time, even we have to make sacrifices to bring one or the other. Holy hell that book and their points costs is f-in stupid af (Arcanum at 240 and Verminlord at 260, wtf) . I just cant kill enough things in enough time before he overwhelms me. The game here felt closer than it probably was My experience fighting them too. There's not a lot of weaknesses there, just strength after strength in every phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 My list is Anvilstrike: Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer Azyros (artifact) Veritant (Teleport prayer) Incantor Incantor Heraldor 3x5 Liberators 1x9 Longstrikes 2x3 Aetherwings 1x10 Evocators Geminids Quicksilver Swords 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy0sb Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 I need some help dealing with Nighthaunt. I mostly play against one Nighthaunt opponent and I have been struggling against his list. He run 3x9 spirit host with 2 mourngul, lady Olynder and a lord executioner equipped with lens of refraction. The fact that his whole army ignores rend and dish mostly mortal wounds seems to hard counter everything I trow at him. Any tips on handling that opponent as a stormcast. Tonight I tried an big phalanx comp with teleports. It went OK at first, one brick of sequitor with empower and the vindicator CA almost wiped a whole unit of spirit host in one sweep but I eventually got overwhelmed. This is what I used : Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Celestial VindicatorsLeadersLord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)- General- Trait: Single-minded Fury - Artefact: Stormrage Blade Lord-Relictor (100)- Prayer: TranslocationKnight-Vexillor (120)- Pennant of the Stormbringer- Treasured Standard (Artefact): Pennant of SigmaronKnight-Heraldor (100)Battleline20 x Sequitors (400)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields20 x Sequitors (400)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields5 x Sequitors (120)- Stormsmite Mauls and SoulshieldsUnits5 x Evocators (200)5 x Evocators (200)BattalionsCleansing Phalanx (120)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 142 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostfire Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 @Ozzy0sbI have noticed you have fewer drops than your friend so you get to decide who has the first turn. I would recommend giving NH the first turn, keeping distance so they wouldn't be able to charge your units T1 and wouldn't get double turn. Make them come closer to you, and you empower your troops and charge with them all. Usually it will hit REALLY hard. And if you get double turn I believe there wouldn't be too many of NH left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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