AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[PJetski]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

I don't have any problem with Gristlegore and Tyrant of Blood ****** lists, mostly because i play a quadlista list in Astral Templar with Tauralon. With a few good rolls, more than half of the beasts are vaporized in the shooting phase alone. Rapid fire hitting on 2+ is marvellous.

If you don't like the Meta, counter the Meta.

How are you getting to 2+? Astral Templars and Ordinator should get you to 3+.

[Lucur]

Tauralon gives +1 to hit for ranged when it moves across enemies.

[HammerOfSigmar]

Adding the tauralon.....well, personally, I don't think it is wise to spend so many points on boosting the ballistas....... It seems to me that the whole list is centered around the ballistas, but ballista is very unpredictable, since the D6 hits is something you just cannot control.

[PJetski]

Are you reliably passing over people with the Tauralon? I haven't been impressed with that ability, so it's interesting to hear people are making it work

[ChaosLord]

Hi, I'm new to the game, thinking hard about building a Stormcast army in addition to the Khorne army I've started building. 

I'm finding it difficult to build lists I really like and can't decide which way to go. I'm trying to build my initial armies in the 1000-1500 point range since that's all anyone at my local GW plays, and it's really hard to squeeze in many units.

There are certain models I really like, such as Vandus, Lord-Aquilor and the Vanguard-Palladors. These are some of the best models in the whole game IMHO. I like all of the dracoth/dracoline/gryph mounted stuff, actually, but especially those three. 

The first problem is the units I like are incredibly expensive points-wise. Concussors and Fulminators are cool, but dang they are 120-130 per model! That's more than a lot of heroes. 

Also, the battlelines seem really limited. Liberators are fine, but Judicators don't interest me, and the only other two options are general-specific. Vanguard Hunters also seem bad and don't interest me. It seems like everyone and their brother is using a Lord-Arcanum with Sequitors as battleline.

So assuming I don't want to go the Arcanum/Sequitors route, that pretty much means I have to run Liberators. Ok, fine, that's not so bad. But I feel like it would be cooler if there were more options to add battlelines based on general.

For example, what if Lord-Aquilor as general could make all Vanguard units battleline? That would be really appealing (and flavorful IMHO). You could build an all-Vanguard army if you wanted, which you can't do now. Or what if Vandus (or Lord-Celestant on Dracoth) made all the Dracothian Guard units battleline? Khorne can make Bloodcrushers or Mighty Skullcrushers battleline with certain generals, enabling cavalry armies, so it's not unprecedented, and Khorne doesn't even have the variety of cavalry units that Stormcast has. 

Back to the issue of cost... does it seem like a lot of the Stormcast units are over-costed? In fact Sequitors and Evocators are the only units everyone seems to agree are good for their cost. Vanguard-Palladors, Ballistae and Raptors all seem fine as well. But all of the Paladins seem over-costed. The Dracothian Guard seem quite high, too. Same with Judicators. Prosecutors don't seem to get used much.

If I was putting together an army with models I like, I'd probably do something like this:

980 Points:
Vandus Hammerhand (280)
5x Liberators (100)
5x Liberators (100)
3x Vanguard-Palladors (200)
3x Evocators on Dracolines (300)

1500 Points:
Lord-Celestant on Dracoth (220) - use Vandus model
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
10x Liberators (100)
5x Liberators (200)
3x Vanguard-Palladors (200)
3x Evocators on Dracolines (300)
2x Fulminators (240)

While I like these cavalry-heavy armies, I'm guessing they might be bad due to the low model/wound counts.

Any thoughts you have on any of this would be appreciated.

[HammerOfSigmar]

4 minutes ago, ChaosLord said:

Hi, I'm new to the game, thinking hard about building a Stormcast army in addition to the Khorne army I've started building. 

I'm finding it difficult to build lists I really like and can't decide which way to go. I'm trying to build my initial armies in the 1000-1500 point range since that's all anyone at my local GW plays, and it's really hard to squeeze in many units.

There are certain models I really like, such as Vandus, Lord-Aquilor and the Vanguard-Palladors. These are some of the best models in the whole game IMHO. I like all of the dracoth/dracoline/gryph mounted stuff, actually, but especially those three. 

The first problem is the units I like are incredibly expensive points-wise. Concussors and Fulminators are cool, but dang they are 120-130 per model! That's more than a lot of heroes. 

Also, the battlelines seem really limited. Liberators are fine, but Judicators don't interest me, and the only other two options are general-specific. Vanguard Hunters also seem bad and don't interest me. It seems like everyone and their brother is using a Lord-Arcanum with Sequitors as battleline.

So assuming I don't want to go the Arcanum/Sequitors route, that pretty much means I have to run Liberators. Ok, fine, that's not so bad. But I feel like it would be cooler if there were more options to add battlelines based on general.

For example, what if Lord-Aquilor as general could make all Vanguard units battleline? That would be really appealing (and flavorful IMHO). You could build an all-Vanguard army if you wanted, which you can't do now. Or what if Vandus (or Lord-Celestant on Dracoth) made all the Dracothian Guard units battleline? Khorne can make Bloodcrushers or Mighty Skullcrushers battleline with certain generals, enabling cavalry armies, so it's not unprecedented, and Khorne doesn't even have the variety of cavalry units that Stormcast has. 

Back to the issue of cost... does it seem like a lot of the Stormcast units are over-costed? In fact Sequitors and Evocators are the only units everyone seems to agree are good for their cost. Vanguard-Palladors, Ballistae and Raptors all seem fine as well. But all of the Paladins seem over-costed. The Dracothian Guard seem quite high, too. Same with Judicators. Prosecutors don't seem to get used much.

If I was putting together an army with models I like, I'd probably do something like this:

980 Points:
Vandus Hammerhand (280)
5x Liberators (100)
5x Liberators (100)
3x Vanguard-Palladors (200)
3x Evocators on Dracolines (300)

1500 Points:
Lord-Celestant on Dracoth (220) - use Vandus model
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
10x Liberators (100)
5x Liberators (200)
3x Vanguard-Palladors (200)
3x Evocators on Dracolines (300)
2x Fulminators (240)

While I like these cavalry-heavy armies, I'm guessing they might be bad due to the low model/wound counts.

Any thoughts you have on any of this would be appreciated.

In my opinion, most  SCE units are overcost. Non-SCE player tends to think sequitor and evocators are undercost when they just come out, but with the new release model's point lower and lower than their old counterpart, I hope their points just don't change.

 

For dracoth army, I suggest 4-6 fulminators with 1-2 heraldor. They are pretty good in my opinion, although they are definitely not the most competitive list for SCE. 

[ChaosLord]

9 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

In my opinion, most  SCE units are overcost. Non-SCE player tends to think sequitor and evocators are undercost when they just come out, but with the new release model's point lower and lower than their old counterpart, I hope their points just don't change.

 

For dracoth army, I suggest 4-6 fulminators with 1-2 heraldor. They are pretty good in my opinion, although they are definitely not the most competitive list for SCE. 

Yeah, I'd kinda prefer the reduce costs of other models to promote army diversity, but I won't be shocked if they raise the points of both Sequitors and Evocators by a bit.

[ledha]

3 hours ago, PJetski said:

Are you reliably passing over people with the Tauralon? I haven't been impressed with that ability, so it's interesting to hear people are making it work

passing over can be done by flying 1" across them, then flying back on your position.. Nothing for you to cross them with your entire base.

 

3 hours ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Adding the tauralon.....well, personally, I don't think it is wise to spend so many points on boosting the ballistas....... It seems to me that the whole list is centered around the ballistas, but ballista is very unpredictable, since the D6 hits is something you just cannot control.

the balista+ordinator+tauralon is "only" 880 pts. The tauralon aslo give me some welcomed magic power, is very good in some battleplans (a flying wizard ? YES) and make the sequitors battleline. I have also a good frontline with 25 sequitors and 10 evocators + castellant, which is enough to trade blows in melee.

[MrBeldaeva]

Hey all,

Long time lurker - Looking at a deal for the following SCE models and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to what to add to the purchase in the first instance in terms of "must haves." Currently looking at adding another 16 Sequitors and 6 Evocators, but still happy to take suggestions.

Just trying to plan out what I should be looking at, but of course with the 2019 GHB so close, I'm more likely to be conservative than not.

- 2 Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-chargers
- Lord-Celestant on Dracoth
- Lord-Relictor
- Lord-Castellant
- Lord-Ordinator
- Neave Blacktalon
- 2 Knight-Incantors
- Knight-Vexillor
- Knight-Heraldor
- 3 Retributors
- 3 Prosecutors
- 6 Evocators (plus another potential 6, for 12 total)
- 10 Castigators
- 10 Vanguard-Hunters (2 Hunter-Primes)
- 16 Sequitors (plus another potential 16, for 32 total)
- 20 Liberators (4 Liberator-Primes)
- 4 Celestar Ballista

The local area normally plays at 2k, but given I have no clue what SCE do, I'm most likely going to start with 'point-and-click' and go from there.

[schwabbele]

On 5/11/2019 at 11:00 AM, MrBeldaeva said:

Currently looking at adding another 16 Sequitors and 6 Evocators,

I would defintely go for this, allows you to field a unit of 10 Evos, and 20 5 5 Sequitors. You will even have enough if you want to field "Cleansing Phalanx" battalion ( 2 Evos, 2 Seqs ) .

Then wait for the new Generals Handbook which is due in june and from there you can then further refine.

[schwabbele]

 

On 5/10/2019 at 9:35 PM, HammerOfSigmar said:

In my opinion, most  SCE units are overcost. Non-SCE player tends to think sequitor and evocators are undercost when they just come out, but with the new release model's point lower and lower than their old counterpart, I hope their points just don't change. 

Overcost maybe a bit too much. And thank god GW brings this 1000 point game mode, which - I think - could spare us some nerfs in the 2k range.

 

[Sedraxis]

I really fail to understand the logic that goes around in this thread.

How is it that wiping out enemy generals turn 1 with 3+ Ballistae, autocharging Evocator bombs or unkillable super-dragons are fine, but when FEC can cripple you they are broken OP?

Every army should have some powerful tools, but pretending Evo's, Sequitors and Ballstae are fair whilst complaining about other stuff seems very entitled to me.

[stuntymike]

There is no comparison between those good SCE options and the craziness of GG FEC or, indeed, the massive underpointing of the Skaven Battletome.  A quick glance a tournament results since the FEC book come out quickly demonstrates this. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by stuntymike

[frostfire]

Totally agree that  every army should have their fighty weapons, but when it comes to a dragon can wipe your whole army, it becomes another thing. 

[MrBeldaeva]

54 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

I would defintely go for this, allows you to field a unit of 10 Evos, and 20 5 5 Sequitors. You will even have enough if you want to field "Cleansing Phalanx" battalion ( 2 Evos, 2 Seqs ) .

Then wait for the new Generals Handbook which is due in june and from there you can then further refine.

Appreciated

Think I'll snag them and Solbright as a "counts as" Lord-Arcanum (which I hope no-one will take umbrage to) and just hold pretty until then.

[schwabbele]

24 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

How is it that wiping out enemy generals turn 1 with 3+ Ballistae, autocharging Evocator bombs or unkillable super-dragons are fine,

Mentioning the drake has me thinking you are joking :)

[Mark Williams]

32 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

I really fail to understand the logic that goes around in this thread.

How is it that wiping out enemy generals turn 1 with 3+ Ballistae, autocharging Evocator bombs or unkillable super-dragons are fine, but when FEC can cripple you they are broken OP?

Every army should have some powerful tools, but pretending Evo's, Sequitors and Ballstae are fair whilst complaining about other stuff seems very entitled to me.

The difference is how many points each army has to sink into making a strategy work, and HOW OFTEN they can make that strategy happen in a single game, I think. The stormcast equivalents have very small armies and must bet their entire game on more or less a single turn or a single, very high costed unit.

As someone said above me, there’s no comparison between this and armies that can bop out the same incredible move every turn with a unit that costs half or one third the amount.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Mark Williams

[Lucur]

To add to Mark's previous post, there is always only the one ballista bomb and the one Gav charge. Those are potentially devastating, but can be played around to a degree. There can, however, be any number of Terrorgheists and the only counterplay to the "i go first twice" one is shoot/cast it dead. Which won't happen often with high move and fly.

@Sedraxis

 the fact you would like to see the game balanced around older, weaker units (tomes, synergies, pts-per-wound or whatever) doesn't make it happen. GW is balancing around the new dialed up to eleven stuff. Thus, nerfing the Sacrosanct units would leave SCE behind the pack (which we arguably are anyways, with mediocre faction boni, no terrain and the halfbaked 2.0 tome, compared to later books.)

If the entirety of SCE is brought to Liberator levels of power, the entirety of SCE is - in a competitive environment- subpar.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Lucur
spelling

[HammerOfSigmar]

That's because none-SCE player can counter most SCE list in many ways, while for the FEC terrorgheist, you very limited way to counter it. For example, FEC terrorgheist can counter every melee focused SCE list effectively, but SCE player doesn't have much way to counter the dragon unless you spend about 900 point of your army to counter it.

Another thing need to mentioned is the points.... A powerful FEC terrorgheist cost only 400 points(if we consider the summoning, it cost even less), it's deadly by itself already.  

Check the SCE combos,   lord-ordinator+3 ballista(440 points),   garviel bomb with 10 evo(500 points),  anvil shooting(540 points).....All these combo are more expensive than a single FEC dragon while FEC dragon is no doubt  more powerful than any of these combos. 

At last, data won't lie, FEC winning ratio increase significantly in recent tournament(if I remeber correctly, it is over 60% already), while SCE already drop below 50%, so doesn't it means that the FEC is much stronger than SEC in average? 

Fortunately, other FEC units are not so great and some are also overcost in my opiniont(for example the ghouls), hence you still have a chance to play against it....  

[PJetski]

Collected data is not the same thing as facts...

Anvilstrike is one of the best lists in the game and it can reliably beat FEC.

[frostfire]

Is Anvilstrike a solid build to counter FEC?

On average, 9 Longstrikes with CA would generate 18 attacks which cause 6 mws and 8 successful wound rolls. Without the Amulet and  its own magic getting through , it is almost a guaranteed death to the dragon. But if it  brings the amulet and the spell is carried out, it becomes much more unkillable.

We stand a chance, but not so reliable imo.

[jhamslam]

9 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

I really fail to understand the logic that goes around in this thread.

How is it that wiping out enemy generals turn 1 with 3+ Ballistae, autocharging Evocator bombs or unkillable super-dragons are fine, but when FEC can cripple you they are broken OP?

Every army should have some powerful tools, but pretending Evo's, Sequitors and Ballstae are fair whilst complaining about other stuff seems very entitled to me.

Because Stormcast has to choose. Low bodies, no mortal wound protection. You can commit to melee or shooting not both.

Skaven does everything. Melee, Shooting and Magic. Their heroes are nigh unkillable mini Great unclean ones. They can bring all into one list and you will simply not be able to kill everything.

FEC is basically "bring 4 terrorgheists" gristlegore smash your opponent, fight first fight twice, while summoning additional 500-600 points worth of units. 

Both these strategies are undercosted as hell. In order to get the FEC levels of damage turn one, we spend close to 500 points, an FEC ghoul king on terrorgheist with summoning is 400 (+160/170  free).

Its not the tools, its how theyre costed. If everything in the sacrosanct chamber gets nerfed down to old chamber level, SCE will go from tier 1.5 to a sub-par factions. Same as 40k space marines. As someone who loves playing his SCE i dont want that happening.

[PJetski]

1 hour ago, frostfire said:

Is Anvilstrike a solid build to counter FEC?

On average, 9 Longstrikes with CA would generate 18 attacks which cause 6 mws and 8 successful wound rolls. Without the Amulet and  its own magic getting through , it is almost a guaranteed death to the dragon. But if it  brings the amulet and the spell is carried out, it becomes much more unkillable.

We stand a chance, but not so reliable imo.

There's more in the list than just Longstrikes - 10 Evocators can reliably kill a Terrorgheist in one round of attacks, and they don't care about an Ethereal Amulet.

Between 2 dispel scrolls, disposable Liberator screens, and Aetherwings blocking charges I have never had a problem with any FEC list. 

[Sedraxis]

I get that Gristlegore is really strong and hard to counter. That goes for Ballistae and Evocator bombs too.

I'm also not saying everything should be liberator levels. All I am saying is that I find it strange that people winning their games with strong combos suddenly start complaining about other combos while still denying the power of their own.

I would prefer if the game had less of these obvious power-picks but at least a lot of factions have some options now. No need to pretend your own battletome is terrible just because the meta shifted.

Also a lot of examples given about why FEC is so strong are straight up wrong, so I'm guessing some people here don't even actually play the game.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Sedraxis

[Lord Ein]

OT:

I’ve had my Celestant-Prime on sprue for a year now, and there is a 1750 local tournament coming in the summer.. its time to paint it up and use him in a list!

but,

any advice on making a Prime list? And when to drop him, t2 or t3?

thanks in advance ❤️