AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Mark Williams]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

Why? It's just good strategy

It’s a loophole.

[Future]

12 hours ago, Requizen said:

Depends on the setup. If the Terrorgheist is next to another unit, say some Horrors, you can charge the Horrors and only tag them with 1 Evocators, and then string the rest of the Evos in a line 3.1" away from the Terrorgheist. Now the TG is not eligible to pile in and attack (so skips the "start of combat phase" modifier for Gristlegore), and you pile in and attack with the Evos. Even though you aren't within 3" of the TG, he's still the closest model, so you pile in towards him and attack. Then you hit him with the MW jazz hands. 

Alternatively, if you want to play a bit more risky, you can charge one unit and string just one Evocator to be 3.1" away from the TG, and then only pile in .2" and hit him with the jazz hands only while attacking the other unit, though this has the downside of potentially whiffing on the MW roll. 

Oh for a minute I thought this was wrong because of the FAQ but I see what you are saying. Duck the fight first. Definitely solid advice but if it doesn't slay the tg it will attack back.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/age_of_sigmar_blades_of_khorne_designers_commentary_en.pdf

 

Q: Some abilities say that a unit fights at the start of the combat phase. What happens if that unit is not within 3" of the enemy, but later in the phase an enemy unit piles in to within 3" of it? A: A unit that can fight at the start of the combat phase but does not do so is allowed to fight normally during the combat phase should an enemy unit move to within 3" of it.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Future

[Talunus]

Is there a good 2k list running 5 to 6 heroes? 

[XReN]

23 minutes ago, Talunus said:

Is there a good 2k list running 5 to 6 heroes? 

Depends on the level of "good" you're after

[XReN]

I know a guy who runs full old units list of Hammers of Sigmar with
Celestant-Prime
Vandus
Relictor
Azyros
Heraldor
Everything else are liberators, judicators and retributors

He gets pretty high places on local tournaments because SCE are that solid

[Requizen]

15 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

It’s a loophole.

Rules are rules. Using pile in distance to engage otherwise unengaged models isn't a loophole, it's written in to the core of the game. And if you don't want to die to a Terrorgheist Maw attack hitting you with 12 MWs, then you would do well to use every rule to your advantage. 

Warhammer's seen actual loopholes, where interactions that weren't supposed to exist end up happening due to bad writing. This isn't unintentional.

10 hours ago, Future said:

Oh for a minute I thought this was wrong because of the FAQ but I see what you are saying. Duck the fight first. Definitely solid advice but if it doesn't slay the tg it will attack back.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/age_of_sigmar_blades_of_khorne_designers_commentary_en.pdf

 

Q: Some abilities say that a unit fights at the start of the combat phase. What happens if that unit is not within 3" of the enemy, but later in the phase an enemy unit piles in to within 3" of it? A: A unit that can fight at the start of the combat phase but does not do so is allowed to fight normally during the combat phase should an enemy unit move to within 3" of it.

Yes, it'll attack back, but the hope is that if you hit it hard enough it'll either be dead or crippled enough that you'll at least survive the counterblow. Not much can save you if you completely whiff and deal no significant damage, though.

[Requizen]

58 minutes ago, Talunus said:

Is there a good 2k list running 5 to 6 heroes? 

Lord Celestant on Stardrake
Castellant
Heraldor
Incantor
Relictor

Is a pretty normal core for a Stardrake list. If you're not counting Stardrake as a traditional "Hero", then not many do. My Anvils list runs 4, though the focus isn't on them at all.

Stormcast heroes are mostly support pieces, the Stardrake being the main exception (and neither variant is really a uber-monster like Terrorgheists, Zombie Dragons, or Stonehorns). Normally you want to spend a minimal amount on Heroes to get the effects you want. Castellant for large-sized bricks of units, Relictors for buffing/debuffing/teporting, Azyros for attacking reliability, Arcanum to make Sequitors Battleline, etc. We really only have one Hero that's worth spamming (Heraldor) and two that are just a solid take even if you're not building around it (Incantor and Relictor). The rest are pretty specialized.

[Talunus]

Then if I'm building a 2k cleansing phalanx list, is it a better idea to build heavier sequitor/evocator units or smaller units but more of them? One of the previous posters said that the castellant should be the first grab at a hero after having the arcanum (needed for sequitor battleline). 

But my debate is also reducing the size I have of the units to fill an extra hero

My current list is

Lord Arcanum - general

Incantor

Castellant

Sequitors 2x10

Sequitors 1x5

Evocators 2x10

Cleansing phalanx

2000/2000 points 

I want to test this list out once I fill the units out but it's a debate on reducing the units for an additional hero or unit of something oooor decrease the unit sizes but add more units for the cleansing phalanx 

[Requizen]

1 hour ago, Talunus said:

Then if I'm building a 2k cleansing phalanx list, is it a better idea to build heavier sequitor/evocator units or smaller units but more of them? One of the previous posters said that the castellant should be the first grab at a hero after having the arcanum (needed for sequitor battleline). 

But my debate is also reducing the size I have of the units to fill an extra hero

My current list is

Lord Arcanum - general

Incantor

Castellant

Sequitors 2x10

Sequitors 1x5

Evocators 2x10

Cleansing phalanx

2000/2000 points 

I want to test this list out once I fill the units out but it's a debate on reducing the units for an additional hero or unit of something oooor decrease the unit sizes but add more units for the cleansing phalanx 

Well remember that the Phalanx is a hard cap of 2 units of each, so bringing more Sequitors past 2 units isn't really that valuable.

You probably only need one big unit of Evocators, I think overall a unit of 20 Sequitors/5 Sequitors/10 Evos (or 6 mounted)/5 Evos is probably the best bang for your buck, though of course it's quite limited. 

You may want to invest in Gavriel Sureheart - you're already taking all the things that want to charge early, anyways.

[jhamslam]

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Well remember that the Phalanx is a hard cap of 2 units of each, so bringing more Sequitors past 2 units isn't really that valuable.

You probably only need one big unit of Evocators, I think overall a unit of 20 Sequitors/5 Sequitors/10 Evos (or 6 mounted)/5 Evos is probably the best bang for your buck, though of course it's quite limited. 

You may want to invest in Gavriel Sureheart - you're already taking all the things that want to charge early, anyways.

Requizen, have you faced the FEC gristlegore spam that is making the meta rounds yet?

[Talunus]

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Well remember that the Phalanx is a hard cap of 2 units of each, so bringing more Sequitors past 2 units isn't really that valuable.

You probably only need one big unit of Evocators, I think overall a unit of 20 Sequitors/5 Sequitors/10 Evos (or 6 mounted)/5 Evos is probably the best bang for your buck, though of course it's quite limited. 

You may want to invest in Gavriel Sureheart - you're already taking all the things that want to charge early, anyways.

Who would I want to drop for gav? The incantor or castellant?

And wouldn't gav need to be the general to run as the general?  Because that would drop the sequitors as battleline 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Talunus

[jhamslam]

16 minutes ago, Talunus said:

Who would I want to drop for gav? The incantor or castellant?

And wouldn't gav need to be the general to run as the general?  Because that would drop the sequitors as battleline 

The incantor. 
And no. You dont need a lord celestant to be the general to run one. You can have any hero be the general. Its generally wise to not have named characters as generals since they dont get a trait or artifact.

[Requizen]

28 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Requizen, have you faced the FEC gristlegore spam that is making the meta rounds yet?

Not yet. I've fought other FEC lists - Ghoul Patrol, Blisterskin, and Feast Day, but not Gristlegore. I should have a good practice day vs them in the coming weeks.

11 minutes ago, Talunus said:

Who would I want to drop for gav? The incantor or castellant?

And wouldn't gav need to be the general to run as the general?  Because that would drop the sequitors as battleline 

Gav doesn't need to be the General to use his Command Ability, so keep the Arcanum as-is.

You shouldn't need to drop anything if you change the unit sizes as suggested. This is my current Phalanx list.

Arcanum on Foot (General, Azyrite Halo)
Castellant (Gryph-Feather Charm)
Incantor (Stormcaller)
Gavriel Sureheart
Knight Vexillor (God-forged Blade)

20x Sequitors
5x Sequitors
5x Sequitors

10x Evocators
5x Evocators

Cleansing Phalanx

2000/2000

You could drop the Vexillor to beef the unit of Sequitors up to 10, but you kinda want the extra charge distance. 

If you were insistent on keeping the Arcanum on mount, then you would simply not take the Vexillor and stay 60 points under for an extra Command Point.

[jhamslam]

1 minute ago, Requizen said:

Not yet. I've fought other FEC lists - Ghoul Patrol, Blisterskin, and Feast Day, but not Gristlegore. I should have a good practice day vs them in the coming weeks.

let me know how it goes, the fight first, fight twice mortal wounds on 6s is brutal. 

[Mark Williams]

8 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

let me know how it goes, the fight first, fight twice mortal wounds on 6s is brutal. 

I’ve played against it. I charged the general with 10 evocators and Gavriel. He managed to kill everything but 2 evocators before I got to attack. You’d have to charge with something like 20 sequitors maybe in order to have enough bodies to weather the attacks and get a decent strike back.

[jhamslam]

1 minute ago, Mark Williams said:

I’ve played against it. I charged the general with 10 evocators and Gavriel. He managed to kill everything but 2 evocators before I got to attack. You’d have to charge with something like 20 sequitors maybe in order to have enough bodies to weather the attacks and get a decent strike back.

you cant kill it in melee , have to tie it down with debuffs or shoot it. melee stormcast are no longer viable

[Requizen]

13 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

let me know how it goes, the fight first, fight twice mortal wounds on 6s is brutal. 

I've been charged by a Terrorgheist who fought twice, it's the same thing on the opponent's turn. Especially nasty with Feast Day, where they can Feeding Frenzy for free once per turn. It does of course completely obliterate whatever it touches. 

While as I said, you can pile-in trick your way to fighting it before it fights, but jhamslam is correct in that shooting is the proper way to deal with them. Especially if you either drop 3-4 Ballistas or Anvil some Longstrikes. Shooting Stormcast is pretty much the future at this point, unless the meta shifts horribly.

[Mark Williams]

6 hours ago, Requizen said:

Rules are rules. Using pile in distance to engage otherwise unengaged models isn't a loophole, it's written in to the core of the game. And if you don't want to die to a Terrorgheist Maw attack hitting you with 12 MWs, then you would do well to use every rule to your advantage. 

Warhammer's seen actual loopholes, where interactions that weren't supposed to exist end up happening due to bad writing. This isn't unintentional.

Yes, it'll attack back, but the hope is that if you hit it hard enough it'll either be dead or crippled enough that you'll at least survive the counterblow. Not much can save you if you completely whiff and deal no significant damage, though.

I absolutely think this is an abuse of the rules in order to get around an unfavorable situation. I agree there’s nothing stopping you from doing it, but I think it’s the sort of thing we may literally see a change in the rules at some point to stop people from doing. You’re basically assaulting a model without assaulting it, just so that you can keep them from using their army’s rules against you. You can deny the situation so that you don’t feel any guilt, but to me it’s definitely exploiting a loophole in the way the rules work just to get to attack first. As I said, I agree with you that it’s legal, I just disagree with the the ethical mindset of it.

[Future]

I totally disagree. I think these are tactics that separate good players from great players. This is no different from positioning units to allow them to pile in against a charge in the front ranks, pinning a horde so it can't pile in against you or any other number of movement mechanics. This is what makes AOS a table top game that is won on the table and not in the list building phase as so many believe.

[Requizen]

1 minute ago, Mark Williams said:

I absolutely think this is an abuse of the rules in order to get around an unfavorable situation. I agree there’s nothing stopping you from doing it, but I think it’s the sort of thing we may literally see a change in the rules at some point to stop people from doing. You’re basically assaulting a model without assaulting it, just so that you can keep them from using their army’s rules against you. You can deny the situation so that you don’t feel any guilt, but to me it’s definitely exploiting a loophole in the way the rules work just to get to attack first. As I said, I agree with you that it’s legal, I just disagree with the the ethical mindset of it.

There's nothing unethical about playing the game the way it's written, especially when it's intentional. I'm pretty sure there was even a tactica article on Warhammer-Community about this exact thing, so it's something they're aware of and are ok with. The fact that the FAQ directly addresses it and discusses it makes it extra legitimate.

Piling in is by far the most finnicky part of the game, and the part of the game that people understand the least. Understanding the rules and using doesn't make you a cheap player. There's no rules lawyering or crazy interpretation of the word "charge", it's laid out quite plainly. 

[Mark Williams]

44 minutes ago, Requizen said:

There's nothing unethical about playing the game the way it's written, especially when it's intentional. I'm pretty sure there was even a tactica article on Warhammer-Community about this exact thing, so it's something they're aware of and are ok with. The fact that the FAQ directly addresses it and discusses it makes it extra legitimate.

Piling in is by far the most finnicky part of the game, and the part of the game that people understand the least. Understanding the rules and using doesn't make you a cheap player. There's no rules lawyering or crazy interpretation of the word "charge", it's laid out quite plainly. 

Allow me to agree to disagree. I think if you “charge” the dragon in a way that you intentionally want to combat it, but use nearby units to circumvent its rules, you’re just exploiting a weird side effect of the rules. Allow me my opinion. I’m fine with yours. I just don’t want you to say it’s unreasonable for someone else to to think the way I do, or that everyone you know agrees with you.

[jhamslam]

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

There's nothing unethical about playing the game the way it's written, especially when it's intentional. I'm pretty sure there was even a tactica article on Warhammer-Community about this exact thing, so it's something they're aware of and are ok with. The fact that the FAQ directly addresses it and discusses it makes it extra legitimate.

Piling in is by far the most finnicky part of the game, and the part of the game that people understand the least. Understanding the rules and using doesn't make you a cheap player. There's no rules lawyering or crazy interpretation of the word "charge", it's laid out quite plainly. 

whats this pile in trick? im unfamiliar with it

 

[Kelsicle]

1 hour ago, jhamslam said:

whats this pile in trick? im unfamiliar with it

 

Requizen outlines it on the previous page

“Depends on the setup. If the Terrorgheist is next to another unit, say some Horrors, you can charge the Horrors and only tag them with 1 Evocators, and then string the rest of the Evos in a line 3.1" away from the Terrorgheist. Now the TG is not eligible to pile in and attack (so skips the "start of combat phase" modifier for Gristleugore), and you pile in and attack with the Evos. Even though you aren't within 3" of the TG, he's still the closest model, so you pile in towards him and attack. Then you hit him with the MW jazz hands. 

Alternatively, if you want to play a bit more risky, you can charge one unit and string just one Evocator to be 3.1" away from the TG, and then only pile in .2" and hit him with the jazz hands only while attacking the other unit, though this has the downside of potentially whiffing on the MW roll. “

Apologies if there is a better way to quote him but couldn’t figure it out on my phone.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Kelsicle
Edit

[Requizen]

5 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

Allow me to agree to disagree. I think if you “charge” the dragon in a way that you intentionally want to combat it, but use nearby units to circumvent its rules, you’re just exploiting a weird side effect of the rules. Allow me my opinion. I’m fine with yours. I just don’t want you to say it’s unreasonable for someone else to to think the way I do, or that everyone you know agrees with you.

I mean, of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm also allowed to feel insulted and defensive when someone tells me I'm a cheesy player when I'm doing absolutely nothing wrong. Feel free to have your opinion but I'm not just going to allow a stab at my character without comment.

[Souleater]

It's understandable that folks are looking for ways to fight these things other than simply hoping to tank the damage.

My personal view of such abilities (Striking First and Double Fighting) is that really an army should only have access to one or the other depending on their 'flavour ' .  When an army can do both and hit with a block of MWs that's going to prompt folks to try and work around the problem. 

 

This isn't the outright Rules Lawyering of e.g. two models standing next to each other and by weird RAW making both untargetable (old 40k situation).

 

Screening and clever use of pile-ins is an advanced part of the game.