Nos Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, ledha said: it doesn't really matter, if your ordinator is engaged in melee, something went REALLY wrong anyway. Not true at all. The one with six attacks is a prime candidate for an Artifact. Mine has killed a Bloodthirster, a Spirit of Durthu, a couple necromancers and a Daemon Prince in his time with Sword of Judgement after softening them up with a Ballista. It’s easy to get him in combat and still be wholly within 9” for shooting. Against monster or hero dependent lists I tend to use him as a hero hunter at this point. He and a Ballista can usually seriously maim or kill them in one turn. If he dosent and I’m really worried about him dying I can just retreat him, at which point my opponent either uses his hero or monster to kill a wounded buffing hero-who cares, not to mention if the Ordinator survives with even one wound he gets to swing back with six attacks causing D6 MW on a single 6 - or he sends the monster or hero into battle wounded and with a worse profile, or has to invest in screening and hiding them for the rest of the game. Very favourable Trade for me either way. @That Guy as above I like the guy with six attacks because it makes him a decent hero assassin in certain circumstances. I wouldn’t ever make a list around it or anything but if you’ve got an artifact slot free and aren’t dependent on something else for your strategy he’s as good a candidate as any. Even something like Ghyrstrike takes him from just being so-so to a strong combatant. If you have to deploy the Ballistae far away it’s not exactly an issue if he can’t fight anyone. But given the range for the salvo is max 18” and you can deepstrike behind your battleline or a screening unit anyway I never struggle to get him into the mix if I need to. But I will stress I bought the guy with two hammers because he looked the coolest then worked this out afterwards. Rule of Cool always for me. Edited February 27, 2019 by Nos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I would always rather have Astral Templars +1 hit and 6" move than the Sword of Judgment when playing with 4x Ballistas + Ord 15 hours ago, Requizen said: Oh true, but then should still be 2.33/2.78/3.22/3.66/3.66/3.66 rather than what's on there, which bumps up their numbers against 2+ to 4+ armor by a bit. You are correct, I fixed it on my end. They go down to ~56ppw against 4+ saves, which becomes 28ppw when you double tap with Anvils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 2 hours ago, PJetski said: I would always rather have Astral Templars +1 hit and 6" move than the Sword of Judgment when playing with 4x Ballistas + Ord You are correct, I fixed it on my end. They go down to ~56ppw against 4+ saves, which becomes 28ppw when you double tap with Anvils. My only issue with Astral Templars from a shooting army perspective is that it's a complete waste if you go against a non-monster army. If you're going heavy shooting, the 6" extra move is neat but rarely going to make or break a game, and the Artifact and CA are both exceedingly mediocre. They're really solid for a mixed army where you're bringing Ballistas alongside Sequitors/Evocators, though. Anvils makes such an interesting conundrum for list building. As soon as you take more than a min sized shooting unit, you have to ask yourself if Anvils would be better for double tapping, especially Longstrikes and Bow Judis. IMO there are 3 styles of shooting list that I've rotated around: One big shooting unit, pretty much always Anvils. Judis, VWing Judis, or Longstrikes, with everything designed to protect them and get them positioned. MSU (Mutliple Small Units) shooting, ~6-8 shooting units that can operate fairly independently and spread out. ~3-5 MSU shooting units standing behind melee units such as Sequitors, Evos, or Paladins. Potentially the most well rounded, but generally deals middling ranged damage compared to the other two. I think the best ways to implement heavy shooting are Justicar Conclave with either 2x3 Hurricanes/1x6 Longstrike or 3x3 Hurricanes + other stuff, or Anvils Longstrikes, or just bombing in 3-4 Ballistas with some other ranged options alongside. Any other shooting styles seem a bit lacking in one place or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nos Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, PJetski said: I would always rather have Astral Templars +1 hit and 6" move than the Sword of Judgment when playing with 4x Ballistas + Ord You are correct, I fixed it on my end. They go down to ~56ppw against 4+ saves, which becomes 28ppw when you double tap with Anvils. I don’t really think there’s a comparison to be made between them. One costs 240 points, the other costs 300 points more, so over twice as much. As I said it’s not something I’d be building a list around. 540 points is definitely something you’re building a list around. There’s also literally no reason you can’t do both anyway. If you went AT with one ballista and Ordinator the ballista is hitting the monster on 3’s and the LO is causing D6 MW’s on 5’s. If you’re taking them as a cheap assassination squad as I mentioned above you don’t need 3 more Ballistae to do the job on top of that. Edited February 27, 2019 by Nos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Requizen said: My only issue with Astral Templars from a shooting army perspective is that it's a complete waste if you go against a non-monster army. If you're going heavy shooting, the 6" extra move is neat but rarely going to make or break a game, and the Artifact and CA are both exceedingly mediocre. They're really solid for a mixed army where you're bringing Ballistas alongside Sequitors/Evocators, though. The best pure shooting lists are Shadowhammer Compact and some variant of Anvils with 9-12 Longstrikes, but I generally don't consider pure shooting armies to be a viable choice. You put all your power to effect the game into a single phase and then you don't have much of a backup plan if the dice go poorly or if you get a bad matchup (Sylvaneth, Warrior Brotherhood, Fulminators, Plaguebringers). They can also be shut down by table scenery placement and realmscapes. The best approach is a mix of shooting and melee. The AT list is ballista core and 10+ Evocators. The Ballista love +1 hit (and the 6" move is great on Total Commitment) and the Evocators love the 6" move alongside a Heraldor, Cogs, and Lightning Speed to get a turn 1 charge. 28 minutes ago, Nos said: My only issue with Astral Templars from a shooting army perspective is that it's a complete waste if you go against a non-monster army. If you're going heavy shooting, the 6" extra move is neat but rarely going to make or break a game, and the Artifact and CA are both exceedingly mediocre. They're really solid for a mixed army where you're bringing Ballistas alongside Sequitors/Evocators, though. It's not worthwhile to try to fit a battalion into an AT 4 ballista list in my opinion Edited February 27, 2019 by PJetski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryPomeranian Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Got destroyed by gloomspite at 1250 (120 goblins). Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, AngryPomeranian said: Got destroyed by gloomspite at 1250 (120 goblins). Any suggestions? Smaller game sizes aren't balanced and heavily favour cheesy combos. Staunch Defender + Warding Lantern on 4+ Dracoths usually rolls over everything in smaller game sizes where mortal wounds aren't very prevalent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 27 minutes ago, PJetski said: The best pure shooting lists are Shadowhammer Compact and some variant of Anvils with 9-12 Longstrikes, but I generally don't consider pure shooting armies to be a viable choice. You put all your power to effect the game into a single phase and then you don't have much of a backup plan if the dice go poorly or if you get a bad matchup (Sylvaneth, Warrior Brotherhood, Fulminators, Plaguebringers). They can also be shut down by table scenery placement and realmscapes. The best approach is a mix of shooting and melee. The AT list is ballista core and 10+ Evocators. The Ballista love +1 hit (and the 6" move is great on Total Commitment) and the Evocators love the 6" move alongside a Heraldor, Cogs, and Lightning Speed to get a turn 1 charge. It's not worthwhile to try to fit a battalion into an AT 4 ballista list in my opinion Hm, I still want to test it out. I agree that pure shooting (as in, nothing that can take or give a punch) is too limited, but I would still consider a list that's 70% shooting with some melee to back it up to still be "shooting focused". Even just 20 Sequitors with the proper Hero support (and maybe Skinks/Aetherwings to run interference) is generally enough to play the midfield and protect against any sort of threatening charge. After doing a lot of listwriting, I think there are more flexible builds, but the Longstrike/Evo Anvils army is by far the most threatening to many of the boogeyman builds (since it excels in dropping Heroes more than pretty much any other), except perhaps for an Anvils/Longstrike/Sequitor build that I want to toy with. 4 Ballista Ordinator is a close second but I think with Skaven Hordes, Gitmob Blobs, and Skellie Blobs, getting 18" away from the proper target is more difficult now than ever. 11 minutes ago, AngryPomeranian said: Got destroyed by gloomspite at 1250 (120 goblins). Any suggestions? Depends on what the armies were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 40 minutes ago, PJetski said: Shadowhammer Compact Just looked this up, seems pretty interesting. Could be a nice build for a DoK army, shame it can't be popped into our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nos Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Requizen said: Just looked this up, seems pretty interesting. Could be a nice build for a DoK army, shame it can't be popped into our own. Also seems an excellent name for a travel brand of Khainite cosmetics Edited February 27, 2019 by Nos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfyre Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Question: If you deepstrike a unit of Judicators in the movement phase as per Scions of the Storm, for the purposes of Rapid Fire, does the unit count as having moved or do they get the +1 attack? As the wording says 'set-up' a unit in the movement phase, I assume it's not a move and you do get the extra attack but would be useful to get some validation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 27 minutes ago, Starfyre said: Question: If you deepstrike a unit of Judicators in the movement phase as per Scions of the Storm, for the purposes of Rapid Fire, does the unit count as having moved or do they get the +1 attack? As the wording says 'set-up' a unit in the movement phase, I assume it's not a move and you do get the extra attack but would be useful to get some validation. I don't have the book on me right now, but there is a section in the core rules called "Reserves" that states setting up a unit does not count as moving for rule purposes. Judicators that enter play through Scions of the Storm (or get set up through Translocation, or a realm spell etc.) do not count as moving so they would get +1 attack that turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizrah Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 For 500 pts doubles TO. Anvils: Veritant 10 Judi 3 Aetherwings Should shots out really everything and i will have proper screen. Do you think there is something better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Nizrah said: For 500 pts doubles TO. Anvils: Veritant 10 Judi 3 Aetherwings Should shots out really everything and i will have proper screen. Do you think there is something better? Aetherwings don't do anything without Raptors nearby I would rather have an Incantor than a Veritant at 500pt -Veritant -Aetherwings +Incantor +Geminids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Guy Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 @Nos Thank you, I actually like the dual hammered ordinator looks more too and now I can have a flex pick artefact for him if it is called for. I will buy that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primarch Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Hi all, been running this list: Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: ShyishLeadersLord-Celestant on Stardrake (560)- General- Celestine Hammer- Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Ethereal Amulet - Mount Trait: Keen-clawedLord-Castellant (100)Knight-Incantor (140)- Spell: Celestial BladesBattleline5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt Bows- 1x Shockbolt Bows5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt Bows- 1x Shockbolt Bows5 x Liberators (100)- WarhammersUnits2 x Fulminators (240)2 x Fulminators (240)2 x Tempestors (220)Endless SpellsChronomantic Cogs (60)Total: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 87 This list has done well the few games I've played and I like the Etheral amulet on the Stardrake but it is vulnerable against MW and I'm not really feeling trading the Castellant for a relictor, so I'm looking for your advice, Should I keep the Ethereal amulett and switch Staunch Defender for the 5+ MW-save or would he become tankier with Staunch defender and Ignax's scales? My thinking is that with staunch and then the Castellant buff the Stardrake will most often be at a 1+ save (+1 from staunch +1 from castelant ) rerolling 1's and since rend 3 is rare the save should not go below 3+ very often and the 4+ MW-save just seems so good. What are your thoughts or experiences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nos Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 15 hours ago, AngryPomeranian said: Got destroyed by gloomspite at 1250 (120 goblins). Any suggestions? What were you up against? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 5 hours ago, Primarch said: Hi all, been running this list: Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: ShyishLeadersLord-Celestant on Stardrake (560)- General- Celestine Hammer- Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Ethereal Amulet - Mount Trait: Keen-clawedLord-Castellant (100)Knight-Incantor (140)- Spell: Celestial BladesBattleline5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt Bows- 1x Shockbolt Bows5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt Bows- 1x Shockbolt Bows5 x Liberators (100)- WarhammersUnits2 x Fulminators (240)2 x Fulminators (240)2 x Tempestors (220)Endless SpellsChronomantic Cogs (60)Total: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 87 This list has done well the few games I've played and I like the Etheral amulet on the Stardrake but it is vulnerable against MW and I'm not really feeling trading the Castellant for a relictor, so I'm looking for your advice, Should I keep the Ethereal amulett and switch Staunch Defender for the 5+ MW-save or would he become tankier with Staunch defender and Ignax's scales? My thinking is that with staunch and then the Castellant buff the Stardrake will most often be at a 1+ save (+1 from staunch +1 from castelant ) rerolling 1's and since rend 3 is rare the save should not go below 3+ very often and the 4+ MW-save just seems so good. What are your thoughts or experiences? Well do remember that Staunch + Ethereal is an anti-combo, since he can't benefit from both (though yes he can buff nearby dudes). Mathematically Staunch is better than Ethereal against Rend- and the same against Rend-1, then better if you get the Warding Lantern on him. Most of the game is Rend- or Rend-1, with only a few big things being -2. Current wisdom would say drop the Amulet for Ignax's Scales and then use the ranged abilities to kill anything with high Rend before he gets there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) Thursday Musings: So speaking of big monsters, I'm once again looking at different list archetypes. One such archetype that we've seen in other armies lately is 2-4 big fighty Heroes, which pair exceptionally well into 3PoP/Duality. For Stormcast, our big Hero is obviously the Stardrake. But, he's not super killy - he does lots of incidental MWs but overall he's not instagibbing units in the way you might see AGoTG, VLoZD, Manger Squigs, Thundertusks, or Durthu accomplish. He's clearly more of an anvil/brick type unit that chips damage and locks things down to kill and outscore, which is how most of the modern Stardrake lists function. However, do we think we could accomplish a "fighty Hero" list with something like non-monster Cavalry Heroes? Dracoline/Gryph Charger Arcanums and Dracoth Celestants are fairly fighty for their points, though of course not as hitty as the abovementioned models. Lacking a Rend-2 or high volume melee weapon makes it hard to build around. Our closest comparison comes from the Celestant-Prime who is... contentiously fine overall, and far below the given examples defensively. His melee output is great, of course, but that's a hard sell for his downsides. I keep coming back to the Arcanum on Tauralon. For the points, quite defensive (Staunch + Ignax + Pinions, cast a defensive spell like Mystic Shield etc), so could be a mini-Drake in anvil effectiveness, of course without the MW reflect or various chip damage sources. The offensive output is only slightly better than the mounted versions (actually no better than the Dracoline on the charge), which is off-putting for taking one or multiple. Overall I think perhaps there's a list to be built where you take 3+ mounted Heroes and then back them with units that don't need babysitting. Many of our current lists revolve around Heroes sitting with the units behind - Castellants, Relictors, Heraldors, etc - rather than ones that are solid fighters by their own right. Perhaps some sort of MSU shooting/zoning list that thins down units which subsequently get slammed by Cavalry Heroes (and maybe a Prime?), then can play defensively by using the Heroes as a countercharge threat. Edit: First Pass Lord Celestant on Dracoth - General, Staunch, Ignax Lord Arcanum on Dracoline - Thunderstrike Celestant Prime Judicators - Bows Judicators - Bows Judicators - XBows Hurricane Raptors x3 Longstrike Raptors x6 Aetherwings Aetherwings Skinks Skinks 2000 Edited February 28, 2019 by Requizen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfyre Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 22 hours ago, PJetski said: I don't have the book on me right now, but there is a section in the core rules called "Reserves" that states setting up a unit does not count as moving for rule purposes. Judicators that enter play through Scions of the Storm (or get set up through Translocation, or a realm spell etc.) do not count as moving so they would get +1 attack that turn. Nice one, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primarch Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 6 hours ago, Requizen said: Well do remember that Staunch + Ethereal is an anti-combo, since he can't benefit from both (though yes he can buff nearby dudes). Mathematically Staunch is better than Ethereal against Rend- and the same against Rend-1, then better if you get the Warding Lantern on him. Most of the game is Rend- or Rend-1, with only a few big things being -2. Current wisdom would say drop the Amulet for Ignax's Scales and then use the ranged abilities to kill anything with high Rend before he gets there. Thank's for the insight! Yeah staunch as mainly been there to buff the dracoths in the past but I'll try put Ignax's Guess I'll have learn to always keep the Castellant 12" behind the stardrake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 You know, the more i play against the new battletomes, the less i think sequitors and evocators will really be nerfed that hard. Now, everyone seems to be able to punch trough the sequitors without any real difficulty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 13 minutes ago, ledha said: You know, the more i play against the new battletomes, the less i think sequitors and evocators will really be nerfed that hard. Now, everyone seems to be able to punch trough the sequitors without any real difficulty To an extent, buffed Sequitors can take a serious beating before getting wiped. I crunched the numbers and even with attacking twice and rerolling Maw hits, the scary AGoTG that people are talking about kills like ~6 Sequitors even though it goes first and fights twice. Skaven WLCs can do serious damage to them, but there's not much they don't blast apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 19 minutes ago, ledha said: You know, the more i play against the new battletomes, the less i think sequitors and evocators will really be nerfed that hard. Now, everyone seems to be able to punch trough the sequitors without any real difficulty I think that I agree. As someone who hasn't quite gotten on board with all the new Soul Wars models, my older liberator based army is starting to tank pretty hard in matches. I'm pretty certain that I need the newer models to even stand a chance against the newer battletome armies. If anything I'm feeling weaker by the minute lately.... My army is still as strong/good as it always was, but the competition just seems to be getting stiffer and stiffer in my gaming area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Requizen said: To an extent, buffed Sequitors can take a serious beating before getting wiped. I crunched the numbers and even with attacking twice and rerolling Maw hits, the scary AGoTG that people are talking about kills like ~6 Sequitors even though it goes first and fights twice. Skaven WLCs can do serious damage to them, but there's not much they don't blast apart. I fought a FEC army based on 3 AGoTG , and one OVERKILLED 10 sequitors and a tauralon with bad rolls, while the other, not buffed, killed 10 sequitors without problem. Sure, they weren't under castellant + staunch but they still annihilated them with 0 difficulty (and one did 18 mortal wounds AFTER killing them) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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