AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Mark Williams]

There are a couple variations of shooting lists that, in my opinion, could fight a gav bomb list to a stalemate if played well.  I’ve been playing shooting lists all year, and in theory if I had played perfectly I could have won the tournaments I went to, or at least gotten in the top 3. The main problem with my shooting lists that using Gavriel has solved for me, is that they cannot grab an objective while going on the offensive. It has to clear the objective first, then grab it, which takes two turns to set up. The Gav bomb variant attacks and grabs objectives at the same time, and I think that’s probably the main reason we haven’t seen a shooting list win.

 I feel as though I have talked myself into saying there’s nothing better than Gavriel actually, but there you have it. I’ll just say this - other lists are harder to get a 5 win streak with, and with a game that’s already so luck dependent, no other list removes as much luck as Gavriel does. I think that’s why it’s more consistently winning.

[PJetski]

2 hours ago, LLV said:

If the gav lists aren’t ‘the best’ I would love to know of some of the better options that you’re talking about. I have seen my fair share of lists and tournament results (probably more than is healthy tbh) and in over 30 main events the only list winning events currently is the Gav bomb. 

Astral Templars with the ballista core and 10+ Evocators (or 20 Sequitors) is probably the strongest Stormcast list overall right now. Given how many MONSTERs are in the meta, on average killing almost a big target (including big ones like Nagash and Rotigus) in one round of shooting with just the ballistas is a very powerful ability. Even when not shooting at MONSTERS you'll delete something every turn. Giving Evocators a free 6" move at the start of the game is also quite good, helping you get into the positions you need to drop your ballistas into play safely, take objectives, or get an early charge after buffing up in the hero phase.

Anvils w/ 9-12 Longstrikes is another really powerful list if you play it properly. There are some specific counters to it (Nighthaunt, long range spells, Skyfire spam) but you still have 1200-1400 points to spend after the Longstrikes to help build around specific meta counters, like adding 2+ Incantors for dispel scrolls or Aetherwings to stop melee armies, or some PRIESTS for Translocation to escape and/or get the right shooting angle. After two rounds of double shooting from 12 Longstrikes your opponent won't have enough left on the table to contest objectives. 

I think most people haven't bothered experimenting outside of Gavriel lists because it's a fairly easy to play and highly effective against people that don't have a lot of experience playing against that kind of thing (ie. most people).

[gelt]

On 11/28/2018 at 3:29 AM, gelt said:

Hello everyone. Meanwhile, I apologize for how I write, English is not my language.
I look for tips for a 1000 pt stormcast list to take to a tournament.
In this tournament we will be 9 players (there will be a lot of chaos) scenarios will be: blood and glory core book, duality of death gh, total commitment.
this was my basic idea. Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Trait: We Can not Fail
- Artefact: God-forged Blade
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Wind Runner
Gavriel Sureheart (100)

Battleline

Units
5 x Evocators (200)
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1000/2000
Extra Command Points: 20
Allies: 0/400
Wounds: 64

I'm not convinced of the ballista, maybe I could exchange it with a lord relictor.

These are the miniatures I have:
24 sequitors of soul war.
2 lord arcanum on griph.
3 kinight incantor.
9 evoicator of soul war.
20 liberator with club and shield of the old set.
heraldor
2 relictor
vandus
castellant
celestant
steelheart's champions
Gavriel
venator
3 prosecutors of the old set
3 vanguard raptors
3 celestar ballista
10 castigators.

The proxi is not allowed in the tournament.

help me play Sunday and my first tournament and the sixth or seventh game, even if I played 10 years at whfb.

I apologize again for my english.
Thanks to everyone for the help, there is a scenario in the tournament where I can not deploy in reserve.

This is very frustrating with stormcasts and he thinks them a lot ... I tried to ggiungerr a lord relictor or a vexillor in the games for a bit of mobility but does not improve the situation and makes me less aggressive in other scenarios of the tournament having less troops.
I tried to remove gavriel, to increase troops, to put other objects, to change hammers with astral etc etc.

But in that scenario I still lost or at least a minor victory, i tryied a lot of times. (I played against the beasts of chaos)

In the end I opted for fast screens to save time and take targets, I removed the lord arcanum to increase the troops and I still put gavriel back for aggression.
For the scenarios that exist, I think I have found the best solution. Maybe it's a bit hybrid list but it's versatile.

The list is now:

Allegiance: Hammers of sigmar

Leaders
Gavriel Sureheart (100)

Knight-Incantor (140)
- General
- Trait: We Cannot Fail 
- Artefact: God-forged Blade 
- Spell: Azyrite Halo

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblades
- 1x Grandblades

5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblades
- 1x Grandblades

Units
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 4x Stormsmite Greatmaces

5 x Evocators (200)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs

10 x Skinks (60)
- Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs

Total: 1000 /1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 120/ 200
Wounds: 85

[Freejack02]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

Astral Templars with the ballista core and 10+ Evocators (or 20 Sequitors) is probably the strongest Stormcast list overall right now. Given how many MONSTERs are in the meta, on average killing almost a big target (including big ones like Nagash and Rotigus) in one round of shooting with just the ballistas is a very powerful ability. Even when not shooting at MONSTERS you'll delete something every turn. Giving Evocators a free 6" move at the start of the game is also quite good, helping you get into the positions you need to drop your ballistas into play safely, take objectives, or get an early charge after buffing up in the hero phase.

Anvils w/ 9-12 Longstrikes is another really powerful list if you play it properly. There are some specific counters to it (Nighthaunt, long range spells, Skyfire spam) but you still have 1200-1400 points to spend after the Longstrikes to help build around specific meta counters, like adding 2+ Incantors for dispel scrolls or Aetherwings to stop melee armies, or some PRIESTS for Translocation to escape and/or get the right shooting angle. After two rounds of double shooting from 12 Longstrikes your opponent won't have enough left on the table to contest objectives. 

I think most people haven't bothered experimenting outside of Gavriel lists because it's a fairly easy to play and highly effective against people that don't have a lot of experience playing against that kind of thing (ie. most people).

No one is saying those lists aren't good, but you're the only one saying Gavriel lists are inferior. 

[LLV]

13 hours ago, PJetski said:

Astral Templars with the ballista core and 10+ Evocators (or 20 Sequitors) is probably the strongest Stormcast list overall right now. Given how many MONSTERs are in the meta, on average killing almost a big target (including big ones like Nagash and Rotigus) in one round of shooting with just the ballistas is a very powerful ability. Even when not shooting at MONSTERS you'll delete something every turn. Giving Evocators a free 6" move at the start of the game is also quite good, helping you get into the positions you need to drop your ballistas into play safely, take objectives, or get an early charge after buffing up in the hero phase.

Anvils w/ 9-12 Longstrikes is another really powerful list if you play it properly. There are some specific counters to it (Nighthaunt, long range spells, Skyfire spam) but you still have 1200-1400 points to spend after the Longstrikes to help build around specific meta counters, like adding 2+ Incantors for dispel scrolls or Aetherwings to stop melee armies, or some PRIESTS for Translocation to escape and/or get the right shooting angle. After two rounds of double shooting from 12 Longstrikes your opponent won't have enough left on the table to contest objectives. 

I think most people haven't bothered experimenting outside of Gavriel lists because it's a fairly easy to play and highly effective against people that don't have a lot of experience playing against that kind of thing (ie. most people).

So I’ve seen variations on both these lists compete and still no major event podiums. Don’t get me wrong I love Templars and everything you say makes sense, except against DoK .... and certain realms(auto lose in shadow with 6” shooting) ... and total commitment....

There are very good lists out there but there are also very, very good players that have settled on gav bomb being the best tool at their disposal. Your arguements seem like the one I see constantly in mtg from less experienced players thinking ‘their deck’ is something the pro’s missed in their thousands of hours of structured testing. Yes now and again something gets missed but even then it’s usually a fad.

im not saying you’re wrong, I’m just pointing out that people are taking the lists you mentioned (I have seen them) and there’s a reason people like Gary P and jack Armstrong are using gav bomb. As someone said- go out there and prove it. They are. 

[HammerOfSigmar]

On 11/30/2018 at 3:53 AM, Nizrah said:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- General
- Storm Lance
- Trait: We Cannot Fail
- Artefact: God-forged Blade
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Knight-Azyros (100)
Lord-Castellant (100)
Gavriel Sureheart (100)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
10 x Evocators (400)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
4 x Fulminators (480)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112

Typical hammer/anvil list. What do you think?  Azyros + Gavriel + Evo in drop, rest in table. 

Gavriel's CA cannot be used in anvils....

[Black Blade]

I'm proud to say I won my FLGS 8 week escalation league. First event I've ever been in and i was the only one to go undefeated. All with Stormcast. Thanks to the folks here that helped me understand my faction better. I started a thread below about it.

 

[wanderingrogue]

23 hours ago, PJetski said:

Astral Templars with the ballista core and 10+ Evocators (or 20 Sequitors) is probably the strongest Stormcast list overall right now. Given how many MONSTERs are in the meta, on average killing almost a big target (including big ones like Nagash and Rotigus) in one round of shooting with just the ballistas is a very powerful ability. Even when not shooting at MONSTERS you'll delete something every turn. Giving Evocators a free 6" move at the start of the game is also quite good, helping you get into the positions you need to drop your ballistas into play safely, take objectives, or get an early charge after buffing up in the hero phase.

Anvils w/ 9-12 Longstrikes is another really powerful list if you play it properly. There are some specific counters to it (Nighthaunt, long range spells, Skyfire spam) but you still have 1200-1400 points to spend after the Longstrikes to help build around specific meta counters, like adding 2+ Incantors for dispel scrolls or Aetherwings to stop melee armies, or some PRIESTS for Translocation to escape and/or get the right shooting angle. After two rounds of double shooting from 12 Longstrikes your opponent won't have enough left on the table to contest objectives. 

I think most people haven't bothered experimenting outside of Gavriel lists because it's a fairly easy to play and highly effective against people that don't have a lot of experience playing against that kind of thing (ie. most people).

2 rounds of double shooting vs say..... deepkin...generally nets you a dead scryer and a squad of thralls or 2 🤷‍♂️

 

its not "easy" which also makes me pretty sure youve never even tried it before commenting, but its main draw is its reliable:

realm of shadow? 6 inch range for everything? dont care

character mission? got buckets

enemy casting? cps for charging to burn

etc

etc

etc

Vs the big lists it has tools and non of the horrendous bad match ups other sce lists have. Sure trees are a problem but not insurmountable and no where near as table chompingly frustrating as when you bring 12 raptors and cant shoot through the trees. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by wanderingrogue

[Mark Williams]

Day 1 of NZ Masters tournament.

 I’m using a Gav bomb list with quite a bit of shooting as backup. My army list is on the previous page I believe.

Game 1 - Vs Anvils Stormcast

His list was composed almost entirely of Sequitors and Evocators, with a unit of Longstrike Raptors in the back. Had lord arcanum on Tauralon and a Cleansing Phalanx battalion.  Mission was Better Part of Valour.

He deployed half and half with 1 objective heavily guarded and 2 with only one unit. He burned the two weakly guarded objectives and then tried to push forward to get mine. However, I found out afterwards that he forgot to bring out his Scions first turn. At the time I thought it was on purpose. So I was able to assault his objective and take it. I could have won immediately first turn, but didn’t realise it as I’m so used to having to play a long game. I double turned him and burned all the remaining objectives on turn 2. It was a very quick game and we finished in less than an hour.

Game 2 - vs Sylvaneth 

This was the previous tournament winner and was a very nerve wracking game. He was playing a “horde” dryad army with Alarielle. The board got blanketed with trees and I couldn’t see anything to shoot. Mission was Focal points.

He began by teleporting a mob of 30 dryads into the center of the board and claiming his two objectives and that one. I assaulted the middle with my evocators and one of his objectives with a unit of judicators. I didn’t really get to shoot much this game but the evocators held the middle and I defended my board against a morsarr eel charge. Won by points, but we both agreed that if Alarielle had joined the battle sooner, I probably would have lost. He was protecting her, but I had very little that could have stopped her.

Game 3 - vs Legion of Sacrement

Quite a frustrating game. Mission was Total Conquest. I held three objectives for 3 turns, and zoned out all of his graveyards. Had Arkan down to 2 wounds and 4 wounds on two occasions. Routed his entire army except for the heroes. At the end of turn 3 , he assaulted a unit on a graveyard, killed it, brought back a unit of 30 reapers, then captured 2 objectives in turn 4. I captured 1 back in turn 5, then lost all of mine again on the last turn. Lost by 2 points. Very frustrating game and left me quite sour having played a very good game but still losing due to attrition and being unable to kill arkan despite throwing everything I had at him. Tough luck, but this was the toughest army I’ve faced in a long time. Opponent was a previous tournament winner as well, and he has a good chance of winning the tournament this year, so I needed to beat him to win.

Pictures attached below.

PS. My first game today is against an Anvils Longstrike list that’s been doing well, so we’ll see how the theory holds up that this type of shooting list might beat out a Gav bomb. Mission is places of power so I will need my heroes...

Edited December 1, 2018 by Mark Williams

[frostfire]

Very interesting list！It's good to see a gav list dropping the LA  and a bunch of Seq. Also Celestant -Prime is a threat to your opponent's big guy like the Everqueen  with his rend -3 and surecharge.

Having seen the Anvil doing so well yesterday(took out a well protected Slann turn 1), I think it may be  more efficient than the Gav when against certain list.

[Mark Williams]

Day 2 of NZ Masters tournament.

Game 4 - vs Anvils Stormcast

Mission was Three Places of Power. Opponent’s list was a lord aquillor and 9 Longstrike raptors. 2 knight encantors, a knight azyros, and an allied Phoenix. I took first turn and dropped my shooting in order to try to clear away his chaff. I got double turned at this point and he shot about half my on board army and relocated to the side of the board while also bringing down more chaff to protect his raptors. He captured all the objectives by second turn. I pushed forward and tried to get a double turn to stop him getting points on turn 3 but failed the roll. Turn 3 I dropped my army, captured 2 objectives. Won priority for turn 4 and killed his last 2 heroes. I screwed up allocating evocator lightning blasts to his raptors, allowing him to remove them from combat. I lost priority for turn 5 and he shot one of my characters off the objective, which caused me to lose. I had 2 things I could have done to win the game, but made poor decisions, which cost me.

Game 5 - vs Idoneth Deepkin 

Star Strike. All eel list with two of the tall aspect characters (attack one and caster one) and volturnos. Not much to say. I dropped some shooting and killed 2 eels. He killed half of my on board close range shooting on the counter assault. I dropped my evocators and killed the aspect of the storm, lost priority for turn 3 and got tabled by Volturnos and eels. My prime dropped down in turn 3 and tried to take an objective, but died to 3 eels before getting to attack. Instantly lost the game at this point. We played it out for the hell of it. Tabled completely on turn 4. Sad game, haven’t been tabled that quickly in almost a year. I think I killed 6 eels and the storm total.

Summary and Thoughts

I placed 15th out of 20 overall. My opponents placed 20th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, and 10th in that order, so I played some very tough opponents and at the start of the 2nd day  had a shot at top 5 at least. I’m most sore against the loss to death, due to the fact that I feel getting to bring entire units back from the grave is not fair, because of how much of my army I have to sacrifice in order to kill them. It’s an unfair trade, and losing the game like that leaves me feeling a bit cheated.

Concerning the Anvils shooting raptors list that I faced in the 4th game, it was a stronger list for the meta that we were in, and the game was an uphill battle from the start. I had to play an utterly perfect game to win, and he on the other hand just had to wait for one mistake. I concede that my list is therefore inferior to his, and this is at least one example of a shooting Stormcast list that’s better than using Gav bomb variants.

 The game against the eels was a hard counter to me. I think it’s possible that I would automatically lose every game I played against him. I have no tactical option to approach them as they are in cover on turn 1 and basically “gods” on turn 3. The only thing I could have done was just run away from him and made it hard to table me..? I don’t know what to say honestly. I’d say it feels broken to the point of absurdity, but he didn’t place well overall, so I’m inclined to think it’s just a “paper covers rock” scenario, and I basically would just automatically lose any tournament in which I faced that army with my particular list. Sucks.

I have no thoughts towards improving my list at this point. I like the way it plays, and I was able to fight 3 people who’ve won tournaments to a standstill with it. It’s a good, strong list, but it’s not overpowering. I have to play a literally perfect game to win against good opponents with it, and frankly considering how easily my opponents bounced back from 1 or two small mistakes makes me feel even stronger than ever that Stormcast on the whole is a 2nd tier army with maybe 2 or 3 very specific top tier lists. I’m at a point where I feel I can confidently state this and that for me it is my truth. If I were to win a tournament with some variation of the army I’m playing, it would be a literal hurricane of luck and some divine intervention. In my gaming area, 50 percentile placement is going to be a “great achievement” and an impressive display of command-ship. The fact that the 3rd Stormcast player placed dead last with zero wins with a (my opinion) “generic, no gimmicks” list just cements my opinion that at their default setting Stormcast are probably below average, and there’s a tiny portion of lists in the pool that are making it look better than it is. I think it’s fair to say that they are an easy army to play at the novice level, but as you climb the ladder of skill play they start dragging behind, and it’s very difficult to overcome that hurdle, and I think that’s where a lot of the (valid, imo) complaints about Stormcast are coming from.

Since I’m not going to change Stormhosts and I’m not going to abandon the play style that I’ve made my own, I feel that I’ve taken my army as far as it can go. I understand why a knight heraldor is so vital to making this army work and adding one - no, just copying Bobo’s list - would probably give me enough flexibility and “forgiveness” or “luck protection” to  maybe eek into the less than 50% guaranteed bracket. But considering the competition and army types in my area, I don’t think it’s worth abandoning my enjoyment in pursuit of that “unicorn.”

Concerning Gavriel. He’s too strong in my opinion, and I think his command ability should be limited to 1 point per phase. I think removing possibilities of failure from the game is bad for the game, and I saw many examples of this throughout the tournament from other armies. I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t see the irony in feeling that way and having Gavriel as an option. However I think if you drop him down to 1 point only, it will literally half the number of truly viable competitive Stormcast lists, and that would just drag Stormcast as a whole down. I don’t like certain competitive lists relying on a single gimmick, in general, and I think it’s bad for the game as it takes away variety and individual freedom of choice (at least in that type of setting).

Highlight of the tournament for me was beating the person who finished third (Sylvaneth player) in my 2nd matchup. As far as I’m concerned it was a near perfect game and essentially the most fun that could be had. A great and gracious opponent and a tough fight.

Least favourite game was losing to death on a unit resurrection on the last turn of a game. Left me with ashes in my mouth.

Pictures below.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Mark Williams

[azdimy]

@Mark Williams Thanks for the bat reps and your analysis. I enjoyed reading.

I m trying to build a competitive list without gav and no evocators but I really struggle. Do you know where I can find the list of the stormcast player you faced game 4?

[Deadkitten]

3 minutes ago, azdimy said:

@Mark WilliamsDo you know where I can find the list of the stormcast player you faced game 4?

I have to believe there will be a list dump to AoS Shorts after the weekend.  Give the TO a couple days to recover, though.

 

@Mark Williams  Thanks for the writeup and pics.  I greatly appreciated it.

[Mark Williams]

33 minutes ago, azdimy said:

@Mark Williams Thanks for the bat reps and your analysis. I enjoyed reading.

I m trying to build a competitive list without gav and no evocators but I really struggle. Do you know where I can find the list of the stormcast player you faced game 4?

See attached image. Without understanding exactly how it functions, I imagine someone might do very poorly with them. The entire army is essentially a guard for the general and raptors. Half the units that started off the table were placed around them after they relocated, so basically were replacement chaff designed ti try to bait you into getting gummed up in useless fights. A very clever list imo. 

[Nizrah]

On 12/1/2018 at 5:21 PM, HammerOfSigmar said:

Gavriel's CA cannot be used in anvils....

By hammer/anvil i mean tactic... not astral anvils stormhost...

[PUFNSTUF]

2 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

See attached image. Without understanding exactly how it functions, I imagine someone might do very poorly with them. The entire army is essentially a guard for the general and raptors. Half the units that started off the table were placed around them after they relocated, so basically were replacement chaff designed ti try to bait you into getting gummed up in useless fights. A very clever list imo. 

I am assuming he was all in on screening the unit of long strikes and gave you no charge at them? its very one dimensional but as you say can counter certain lists perfectly. Losing that long strike squad sure leave nothing left though.

[Mark Williams]

1 minute ago, PUFNSTUF said:

I am assuming he was all in on screening the unit of long strikes and gave you no charge at them? its very one dimensional but as you say can counter certain lists perfectly. Losing that long strike squad sure leave nothing left though.

As I understand it, the game that he lost, he lost almost instantly.  So yes it has a weakness, and I did try to exploit it in my game, which might’ve worked except of course that I was forced to go for the heroes. So when I did finally get to them I wasn’t able to put damage into them like I would have wanted to.

 The interesting thing to me is that he very, very hard countered a few armies that previously might’ve won the tournament, so he was basically an anti-meta list.

[PUFNSTUF]

Just now, Mark Williams said:

As I understand it, the game that he lost, he lost almost instantly.  So yes it has a weakness, and I did try to exploit it in my game, which might’ve worked except of course that I was forced to go for the heroes. So when I did finally get to them I wasn’t able to put damage into them like I would have wanted to.

 The interesting thing to me is that he very, very hard countered a few armies that previously might’ve won the tournament, so he was basically an anti-meta list.

Yea for sure its very interesting, I feel it can be counter more than a gavriel one though since gav lists also tend to have a large block that can sit on an objective. But shooting heavy lists will always be hard countered by certain things, that's why we don't see KO hardly (besides their nerfs)

[Deadkitten]

1 hour ago, Mark Williams said:

 The interesting thing to me is that he very, very hard countered a few armies that previously might’ve won the tournament, so he was basically an anti-meta list.

There's a lot to be said for this and I don't think it is appreciated in Tabletop games the way that it is in something like MtG or other games.

I had a WM/H buddy say that they used to do a format where instead of a side board, you had a couple of entirely different lists that you could pick from.  It fell out of favor bc every one had their all comers 50/50 list and then their 90/10 or 10/90 depending on what they faced.  Everyone just opted for the 50/50 list, know that their opponent could never be baited into a 90/10 matchup.

 

[Freejack02]

2 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

There's a lot to be said for this and I don't think it is appreciated in Tabletop games the way that it is in something like MtG or other games.

I had a WM/H buddy say that they used to do a format where instead of a side board, you had a couple of entirely different lists that you could pick from.  It fell out of favor bc every one had their all comers 50/50 list and then their 90/10 or 10/90 depending on what they faced.  Everyone just opted for the 50/50 list, know that their opponent could never be baited into a 90/10 matchup.

 

You know, I hadn't thought about how much I like the idea of a small sideboard before now - it seems like it would be a nice change for tournament play. Something like 300 points of alternate units you can swap in/out, but it definitely brings up the issue of timing/information. Should you get to see the opponent's entire list/sideboard before you each modify yours? 

[Deadkitten]

24 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

You know, I hadn't thought about how much I like the idea of a small sideboard before now - it seems like it would be a nice change for tournament play. Something like 300 points of alternate units you can swap in/out, but it definitely brings up the issue of timing/information. Should you get to see the opponent's entire list/sideboard before you each modify yours? 

That's the question though, right?  Do you get to see the Mainboard list before selecting you Sideboard?  Do you get to see your opponent's sideboard before deciding to sideboard yourself?  How much time do you allow to decide?  5 min?  20 min?

I'm not a big fan of sideboards in tabletop games.  You only play the one game.  NOT the potential 3 that you do in a card game.  I think this was the failure that my buddy experienced and why sideboards are sort of a failure in tabletop.  
 

[Mark Williams]

The first tournament I played in this year had a 500 point sideboard. You could mix and match anything as long as you were exactly the right points. You couldn’t see each other’s final lists until the start of game, but you knew what type of army they played and what their list plus sideboard was. So you’d have a pretty good idea of what you’d be facing.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Mark Williams

[Bellfree]

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 4:58 PM, PJetski said:

Gatekeeper lists are not bad lists. They're called "gatekeepers" because they are good and popular enough that you can expect to face them. It's not a derogatory term.

Gatekeeper lists are called that just as often because they're stupid one-trick bullgak that obliterates those who haven't seen it before, but is basically worthless once you figure out the trick.

[FPC]

 If I remember correctly the Warmachine multi list format you just knew the faction of your opponent, and picked your list from that.  Might have been you knew their caster too (which if you don’t know Warmachine we’ll, the caster is basically the general, and makes a huge difference in how a list would play).  Definitely a good way to play.

[Deadkitten]

35 minutes ago, FPC said:

 If I remember correctly the Warmachine multi list format you just knew the faction of your opponent, and picked your list from that.  Might have been you knew their caster too (which if you don’t know Warmachine we’ll, the caster is basically the general, and makes a huge difference in how a list would play).  Definitely a good way to play.

Wasn't it if you knew the caster you knew the list though?