AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Freejack02]

3 hours ago, PJetski said:

It's not possible to make a Gavriel list that fulfills all these requirements:
1. Has enough command points (3-4) on turn one to guarantee the charge and get a good wrap
2. Has enough shooting to take down screens
3. Has enough Evocators for the charge to do significant damage on targets that matter

Come on now, that's a silly claim to make... just off the very top of my head you can make one:

Gavriel Sureheart (100)
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
5 x Liberators (100)

5 x Liberators (100)

5 x Liberators (100)

10 x Evocators (400)
- 10x Grandstaves
10 x Evocators (400)
- 10x Grandstaves
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1800 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 140

Not saying it's a tournament winner, but it easily fulfills your "impossible requirements". The 4 ballistas can punch a hole in just about anything, 20 Evocators can wreak havoc with Gavriel and +12" to charge on the first turn, and Libs/Aetherwings can cap or contest points. It has to deploy 1 ballista on the field (or alternatively you can sack a command point for another unit of Aetherwings), but everything else relevant can Scion turn 1. 
 

[PJetski]

Every game with Gavriel against competent opponents looks like this: You drop in, kill the screen, then lose to the counterattack. Shooting happens after movement, and if you kill the screen with ballistas you won't have a legal charge regardless of many command points you use.

Evocators are too slow to play an objective game, you risk getting tied down in bad engagements if you don't deep stirke charge, and you cant handle prolonged combat. The only plan is to cripple the enemy army on the first turn, and that's not feasible when you can be denied by basic screening tactics.

This list in particular is almost a guaranteed loss on Total Commitment (can't deep strike), Duality of Death (only 2 heroes),  Places of Arcane Power (no wizards, only 1 artifact on a 5 wound hero), Three Places of Power (only 2 heroes), and it really struggles with battleplans where scoring changes dynamically because Liberators and Ballistas are very slow units.

It can be a noobstomper list but that's not good enough to justify running it in a competitive setting. It's possible that my meta is more cutthroat than yours, and that's fine. I mean no disrespect, I just think Stormcast can do a lot better than cheesy Gavriel lists.

I have nothing left to say on the matter that I haven't already said... we will have to agree to disagree 

[Mark Williams]

This is the Gav list I’m running in a tournament tomorrow. Will let you know how the first day went tomorrow night.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Knight-Azyros (100)
- General
- Trait: We Cannot Fail  
- Artefact: God-forged Blade  
Gavriel Sureheart (100)
Knight-Venator (120)
Celestant-Prime (340)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (180)
10 x Evocators (400)
- 10x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113
 

[wanderingrogue]

Well you can deepstrike. For a start you have a relictor or vexillor or both

 

as for your diagrams they are very one dimensional and over simplified . Unless of course you play of a 12 inch wide table 😂

It's pretty easily done if you know what your doing

 

try the linked podcast... listen to my dulcet tones

 

or watch either bobo steams where this "easily defeated" list tactic went undefeated (I'd suggest summer bobo preferably as I think jacks much more competent if for no other reason he's not drunk and/or hungover 😬)

 

 

[wanderingrogue]

Oh and for the record when shooting the screens and you get to one or 2 models left....you stop shooting it so make sure you still have a legal charge.

 

or you leave one model of your huge unit in 12 of a completely unrelated unit, again to keep a legal charge

 

i don't wish to sound insulting but your group doesn't sound cut throut. It seems instead populated by people with a lack of imagination when it comes to tactics.

anyway. I'll stop there.

 

got masters to prepare for 💁🏻‍♂️

[PJetski]

25 minutes ago, wanderingrogue said:

i don't wish to sound insulting but your group doesn't sound cut throut. It seems instead populated by people with a lack of imagination when it comes to tactics.

anyway. I'll stop there.

got masters to prepare for 💁🏻‍♂️

You have chosen a poor way to accomplish that goal. I chose not to insult you, but it seems your ego did not allow the same courtesy.

If your tournament meta is stuck in 2016 where turn 1 deep strike charges are a viable tactic, then Gavriel seems to be a great choice. Good luck!

[Future]

7 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You have chosen a poor way to accomplish that goal. I chose not to insult you, but it seems your ego did not allow the same courtesy.

If your tournament meta is stuck in 2016 where turn 1 deep strike charges are a viable tactic, then Gavriel seems to be a great choice. Good luck!

Sounds like you should fly out to BOBO next year. Will be an easy win for you and a great trophy for the shelf.

[Gorsameth]

49 minutes ago, wanderingrogue said:

Well you can deepstrike. For a start you have a relictor or vexillor or both

 

as for your diagrams they are very one dimensional and over simplified . Unless of course you play of a 12 inch wide table 😂

It's pretty easily done if you know what your doing

 

try the linked podcast... listen to my dulcet tones

 

or watch either bobo steams where this "easily defeated" list tactic went undefeated (I'd suggest summer bobo preferably as I think jacks much more competent if for no other reason he's not drunk and/or hungover 😬)

 

 

Right, Watch game 4 of Chimbobo Twitch vod and see how the Gav list gets baited, charges and doesn't do enough and.... win a game they should entirely have lost because the objective bounces towards the Stormcast twice And a big unit gets brought back on a 5+ that just happens to be able to get on the objective while being outside 9".

 

Its basically a textbook on how the list loses to a good player except for BS mission rng.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Gorsameth

[wanderingrogue]

8 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You have chosen a poor way to accomplish that goal. I chose not to insult you, but it seems your ego did not allow the same courtesy.

If your tournament meta is stuck in 2016 where turn 1 deep strike charges are a viable tactic, then Gavriel seems to be a great choice. Good luck!

I just matched like for like dude. Your obviously very confident in your abilities, you just seem to have missed some core basics, which I was hoping to try debate you with....untill your "maybe my meta Is more cutthroat" comment 

id very much like to play you, have a laugh and see what we could teach each other. It's just from your examples of in game reasoning of why xx is bad and xx is good , it just seems to me that you haven't been pushed by a competent player.

 

i may of course be wrong but I can only go by what you have cited

[wanderingrogue]

1 minute ago, Gorsameth said:

Right, Watch game 4 of Chimbobo Twitch vod and see how the Gav list gets baited, charges and doesn't do enough and.... win a game they should entirely have lost because the objective bounces towards the Stormcast twice And a big unit gets brought back on a 5+ that just happens to be able to get on the objective while being outside 9".

 

Its basically a textbook on how the list loses to a good player except for BS mission rng.

Ahh. I think you should listen to ritches podcast

"bait" is something hwg said. Unfortunately an objective isn't a bait, it's the mission, ritchie played it very well to give me no choice but to engage on his terms. But I played to my outs.

 

again listen to the cast for the skinny rather than just repeat what you heard on the stream from people (good people , people  I respect, but ultimately people who totally missed the nuance of what was happening )

[PJetski]

5 minutes ago, Future said:

Sounds like you should fly out to BOBO next year. Will be an easy win for you and a great trophy for the shelf.

Gladly! Do you want to pay for my ticket and time off work?

[Future]

1 minute ago, PJetski said:

Gladly! Do you want to pay for my ticket and time off work?

If you win I'll reimburse you. Message me when you get everything set up and we can sort it out.

[PJetski]

2 minutes ago, Future said:

If you win I'll reimburse you. Message me when you get everything set up and we can sort it out.

Sounds legit! Here's my credit card number... 😂

[Mark Williams]

As someone who's been experimenting with Gav lists for a month now, I have to agree with @wanderingrogue that most of the tactics that can be used to counter it still force your opponent to play conservatively and in a predictable way, which can still work to your advantage if you have the experience and knowledge to utilize it. I also agree that the reasoning behind why screening doesn't always work is fairly valid from my experience. Your opponent can't turtle behind their lines indefinitely or they will simply lose the mission.

I also am getting very frustrated with people who keep going to extremes in these discussions. No one is saying an army is unbeatable, or that it can't be countered ever with certain lists. Please stop twisting the conversation into a scenario where you make pro-Gav players look wrong and "evil" for just trying to assert how strong it is. This list type has won several tournaments against a variety of other types of armies. Can we at least agree that it's objectively a top tier list that's capable of winning when used by someone with skill and experience? There will always be bad luck; there will always be a handful of people who successfully counter it. These exceptions don't disprove what anyone is saying, because no one is saying it can't be beaten ever.

[Future]

I mean fine, if your here to troll that is cool too. I was thinking more along the lines of we get a mod here involved and you submit the expenses and I escrow the amount of money agreed upon since I don't know your 'expenses'. I thought it would be a fun wager and there was really no down side to you. 

[wanderingrogue]

Exactly - its just strong, not the new boogie man of aos2.

To ignore it as a bad list only good for noob bashing is to set yourself up for a fall .  I enjoy the dabate of pros and cons, but to deny is even HAS any pros seems to fly in the face of all evidence of the contrary.

 

Not sure why this person has decided to die on this particular hill but id gladly debate it if their fingers were removed from ears and they stopped shouting "lalalalalalalalalalaa"

Edited November 29, 2018 by wanderingrogue

[PJetski]

I think Gavriel lists are good (and I have said so every time I criticize them) I just find them lacking and think Stormcast have better options.

Deep strike charge lists are dependent on the binary condition of your opponent knowing how to counter them or not. If 90% of players don't know how to counter it then it's a good choice, but I'm most worried about the 10% that know how to beat it.  Any list that is countered just by an opponent knowing how to position their units to mitigate the charge is not a top tier list in my eyes.

For that reason I wouldn't call it "top tier" - it's more like a gatekeeper army that your list has to be able to beat, much like Thundertusks & Grots in 2016 or Fyreslayer hordes in 2017.

[Gorsameth]

24 minutes ago, wanderingrogue said:

Ahh. I think you should listen to ritches podcast

"bait" is something hwg said. Unfortunately an objective isn't a bait, it's the mission, ritchie played it very well to give me no choice but to engage on his terms. But I played to my outs.

 

again listen to the cast for the skinny rather than just repeat what you heard on the stream from people (good people , people  I respect, but ultimately people who totally missed the nuance of what was happening )

People were talking about how the list gets beat. That game is an example in how the list gets beat. 

Not saying its not a good list. Not saying you played it wrong/bad. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Gorsameth

[Killamike]

Yes people are winning events with their gatekeeper gav lists because they haven't faced the almighty competitive meta ..... that doesn't go to events???

[PUFNSTUF]

Gav lists make me think of Sun Tzu art of war. They do help to make the opponent play to your terms but having to screen and watch out for that deep strike charge for multiple turns of the game. Same thing with Deepkin eel charge but it's easier to pull off with SC. That alone helps make it strong.

[PJetski]

29 minutes ago, Killamike said:

Yes people are winning events with their gatekeeper gav lists because they haven't faced the almighty competitive meta ..... that doesn't go to events???

Gatekeeper lists are not bad lists. They're called "gatekeepers" because they are good and popular enough that you can expect to face them. It's not a derogatory term.

[XReN]

I used to think about Surecharge the same "oh just screen, duh" way
BUT, actually not a terrible lot of armies can retaliate after the initial charge, their CPs might get wasted on inspiring presences, if they try to minimise their screening loses they get a good surround that will take them at least couple of turns to break free. And also the slow issue, 17 inches is not slow, and you better get your ass out of their charge range which will be hella difficult to pull off, than see that double six charge and realise that you are about to take another your unit of the table, whille your opponent gets to the objective that you have fled to, a turn earlier. That's how I see it.

[Nizrah]

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- General
- Storm Lance
- Trait: We Cannot Fail
- Artefact: God-forged Blade
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Knight-Azyros (100)
Lord-Castellant (100)
Gavriel Sureheart (100)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
10 x Evocators (400)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
4 x Fulminators (480)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112

Typical hammer/anvil list. What do you think?  Azyros + Gavriel + Evo in drop, rest in table. 

[LLV]

19 hours ago, PJetski said:

I think Gavriel lists are good (and I have said so every time I criticize them) I just find them lacking and think Stormcast have better options.

 

If the gav lists aren’t ‘the best’ I would love to know of some of the better options that you’re talking about. I have seen my fair share of lists and tournament results (probably more than is healthy tbh) and in over 30 main events the only list winning events currently is the Gav bomb. 

[tamthethird]

Yeah not sure what better list is out there at the moment? I mean look at this thread - it's like 100 pages of the Monty Python Judean People's Front scene.

Sequitors + Evocators + Gavriel, though I peronsally prefer Evocators + Gavriel + Sequitors.