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AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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6 hours ago, PJetski said:

Gavriel lists are definitely not the only competitive list - they aren't even in the top 5 of what Stormcast can do right now. The problem with the turn 1 charge list is that it has to go all-in on that strategy, but that strategy is really easy to counter. All you have to do is put up a disposable screen around your good units, and then counterattack once he takes out your screen.

Astral Templars ballistas + evocators is probably the best SC list right now because it counters the big monster meta hard (you can kill nagash in one round of shooting!) but it can still deal with melee/horde armies because 10 Evocators backed  by Rend-2 shooting solves almost any problem.

Can you tell me more? Im more than intrested :P

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1 minute ago, Nizrah said:

Can you tell me more? Im more than intrested :P

Astral Templars get +1 to hit for all attacks against MONSTERS. Ballistas normally rapid fire hit on 5+ but can get +1 hit from Ordinator and +1 vs MONSTERS. With an Azyros in range of your target you can hit on 3+ rerolling 1s. With no other buffs, 4 Ballistas firing results in an average of 29 wounds at Rend-2, which is enough to kill any monster in the game (assuming average results). It costs 640 points to get that core together, but when you are taking down 400+ point targets every turn it quickly pays for itself.

If your local meta has a lot of MONSTERS it is probably the best Stormcast list in the game. Common MONSTERS in the meta are Nagash, Seraphon dinosaurs, Morathi, Stardrake, Mortarch,s Zombie Dragons, Maw-Krushas, Great Unclean Ones, Bloodthirsters, Lord of Change, Magmadroths, Alarielle, Treelords, Durthu, Phoenixes, Gorgons... almost every army has some big target for you to cut down.

Even if your enemy isn't using any MONSTERS you still have 4 ballistas with +1 to hit, which is pretty good! You can tear down enemy screens for your Evocators to get into melee against the right targets, or reliably snipe heroes even through Look Out Sir! - very valuable when dealing with linchpin heroes like a Slann Starmaster.

The other great feature of the Astral Templars is the command trait that gives every unit on the table a free 6" move at the start of the game. Combined with Chronomantic Cogs and a Heraldor to run&charge, Evocators on foot can get a turn 1 charge after buffing themselves in the hero phase. 

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3 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The other great feature of the Astral Templars is the command trait that gives every unit on the table a free 6" move at the start of the game. Combined with Chronomantic Cogs and a Heraldor to run&charge, Evocators on foot can get a turn 1 charge after buffing themselves in the hero phase. 

Wholly within 12" of general not every unit :P

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Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Astral Templars
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Knight-Azyros (100)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
Celestant-Prime (340)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
10 x Evocators (400)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116

 

Something like that?

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9 hours ago, PJetski said:

Gavriel lists are definitely not the only competitive list - they aren't even in the top 5 of what Stormcast can do right now. The problem with the turn 1 charge list is that it has to go all-in on that strategy, but that strategy is really easy to counter. All you have to do is put up a disposable screen around your good units, and then counterattack once he takes out your screen.

Astral Templars ballistas + evocators is probably the best SC list right now because it counters the big monster meta hard (you can kill nagash in one round of shooting!) but it can still deal with melee/horde armies because 10 Evocators backed  by Rend-2 shooting solves almost any problem.

Didn't Gavriel just take top spot on the weekend?

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26 minutes ago, PUFNSTUF said:

Didn't Gavriel just take top spot on the weekend?

I tend to think the 2rd list are more depending on 40 seqs and the battalion to cut down the drop counts than just charging with Evos. With 5 drops you may get 1st going, grab objectives and stick to them with 3+rerolling Seqs for turns.

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Hello everyone. Meanwhile, I apologize for how I write, English is not my language.
I look for tips for a 1000 pt stormcast list to take to a tournament.
In this tournament we will be 9 players (there will be a lot of chaos) scenarios will be: blood and glory core book, duality of death gh, total commitment.
this was my basic idea. Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Trait: We Can not Fail
- Artefact: God-forged Blade
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Wind Runner
Gavriel Sureheart (100)

Battleline

Units
5 x Evocators (200)
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1000/2000
Extra Command Points: 20
Allies: 0/400
Wounds: 64

I'm not convinced of the ballista, maybe I could exchange it with a lord relictor.

These are the miniatures I have:
24 sequitors of soul war.
2 lord arcanum on griph.
3 kinight incantor.
9 evoicator of soul war.
20 liberator with club and shield of the old set.
heraldor
2 relictor
vandus
castellant
celestant
steelheart's champions
Gavriel
venator
3 prosecutors of the old set
3 vanguard raptors
3 celestar ballista
10 castigators.

The proxi is not allowed in the tournament.

help me play Sunday and my first tournament and the sixth or seventh game, even if I played 10 years at whfb.

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Gary admitted he didn't play amazing at BOBO, made a LOT of mistakes with the new army and was actually contemplating withdrawing after day 1. For example round 3 he forgot you can burn the objectives turn one on Better part of valour and his opponent let him totally redeploy his army so to not auto lose turn one. Round 4 he won because the orb bounced into his territory after being baited into a bad charge by his opponent. I know he made a fair few rules errors on buffs, ranges, timing etc (I'm not being harsh he has said this all him self).

So while Gavriel did take the spot this weekend, take that with a pinch of salt. 

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13 hours ago, gelt said:

Ciao a tutti. Nel frattempo, mi scuso per come scrivo, l'inglese non è la mia lingua.
Cerco consigli per una lista di tornei temporali da 1000 pt da portare a un torneo.
In questo torneo saremo 9 giocatori (ci sarà un sacco di caos) scenari saranno: sangue e gloria libro di base, dualità di morte gh, impegno totale.
questa era la mia idea di base. Fedeltà: ordine

Leader
Lord-Arcanum su Gryph-Charger (240)
- Generale
- Tratto: Non possiamo fallire
- Artefatto: Lama forgiata da Dio
- Incantesimo: Alone azirita
- Tratto del monte: Corridore del vento
Gavriel Sureheart (100)

di battaglia

Unità
5 x Evocatori (200)
-
Storia del Rinvigorimento : Celestial Blades 10 x Sequencer (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequencer (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Totale: 1000/2000
punti comando extra: 20
alleati: 0/400
ferite: 64

Non sono convinto del balista, forse potrei scambiarlo con un relatore signore.

Queste sono le miniature che ho:
24 sequencer di soul war.
2 signore arcano su griph.
3 incantor kinight.
9 evoicator of soul war.
20 liberatore con clava e scudo del vecchio set.
heraldor
2 relictor
vandus
castellant
celestant
steelheart's champions
Gavriel
venator
3 procuratori del vecchio set
3 vanguard raptors
3 celestar ballista
10 castigators.

Il proxi non è ammesso nel torneo.

aiutami a giocare domenica e il mio primo torneo e la sesta o settima partita, anche se giocassi 10 anni su whfb.

I was thinking of removing a sequencer unit, the ballista and adding a venator (useful in the scenario with the heroes and killing those enemies) and one of the liberators.

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13 hours ago, gelt said:

Hello everyone. Meanwhile, I apologize for how I write, English is not my language.
I look for tips for a 1000 pt stormcast list to take to a tournament.
In this tournament we will be 9 players (there will be a lot of chaos) scenarios will be: blood and glory core book, duality of death gh, total commitment.
this was my basic idea. Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Trait: We Can not Fail
- Artefact: God-forged Blade
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Wind Runner
Gavriel Sureheart (100)

Battleline

Units
5 x Evocators (200)
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1000/2000
Extra Command Points: 20
Allies: 0/400
Wounds: 64

I'm not convinced of the ballista, maybe I could exchange it with a lord relictor.

These are the miniatures I have:
24 sequitors of soul war.
2 lord arcanum on griph.
3 kinight incantor.
9 evoicator of soul war.
20 liberator with club and shield of the old set.
heraldor
2 relictor
vandus
castellant
celestant
steelheart's champions
Gavriel
venator
3 prosecutors of the old set
3 vanguard raptors
3 celestar ballista
10 castigators.

The proxi is not allowed in the tournament.

help me play Sunday and my first tournament and the sixth or seventh game, even if I played 10 years at whfb.

I would remove the Ballista, it's not going to be as reliable or useful as 5 Liberators in a game that size.

Honestly I don't think you need Gavriel either. You can do plenty with that army without him and actually it makes you more flexible and harder to outhink. My 1000 points Stormcast was very similar to this and I didn't need Gavriel to win routinely.  Sequitors and Evocators with their buffs vastly outperform their cost at this level. Add a Castellant or a Relictor instead, characters who unlike Gavriel can affect any unit in your army every turn, and you have an army that's very hard to kill, capable of healing and Resurrection,  plenty of scope for bringng on reserves for objectives and clutch plays, and is very good at kiling things in general.  Not much else you need.

Also if you're not taking Gavriel you can take a different Stormhost. At 1000 points Astral Templars can kill a general easily who in 1000 points games will represent a huge part of an army's effectiveness, and will make mincemeat of people who try to cheese it by bringing something like a Great Unclean One or Spirit of Durthu similar at this level. Or you could just take Staunch Defender, giving your Sequitors buffed by the Castellant a re-rollable 2+ save on defence or 3+ on the charge, as well as a powerful artifact.

 

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On 11/27/2018 at 1:50 PM, PJetski said:

Gavriel lists are definitely not the only competitive list - they aren't even in the top 5 of what Stormcast can do right now. The problem with the turn 1 charge list is that it has to go all-in on that strategy, but that strategy is really easy to counter. All you have to do is put up a disposable screen around your good units, and then counterattack once he takes out your screen.

Astral Templars ballistas + evocators is probably the best SC list right now because it counters the big monster meta hard (you can kill nagash in one round of shooting!) but it can still deal with melee/horde armies because 10 Evocators backed  by Rend-2 shooting solves almost any problem.

this is highly inaccurate in my opinion

this weekend i played very badly (mainly due to booze tbf) and played some amazing players and army and still came out on top

 

gav - lists have a lot of moving parts and it is tricky to keep your buffs in range - so it is tricky, but it IS powerful - to say it isnt even in the top 5 is inaccurate hyperbole 

to write it off with a dismissive "just screen with chaff" is to completely miss the point of a decent well built alpha strike army....

 

"omg!!!! 10 skinks  - what devilry is this? nooooooooooooooooooooo.... if only id pre thought about this new and outlandish tactic of screening....

 

.... oh wait i did"

 

pew pew

zzzap

charges 15 inches...

 

 

:/

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22 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You can't declare charges unless you are within 12" of your target. If screened properly, you can completely deny a Gavriel charge.

Gavriel lists are not objectively bad but they're far from the best Stormcast list

Within 12" of ANY enemy unit, not necessarily the "target" unit. It's fine if I have to drop 9" from the skinks because Gav can pump up my charge to, say 20", which will allow me to completely circumnavigate the screening skinks. 

I have to agree with wanderingrogue that Gav lists are just very powerful and surely within the top 5 competitive lists we can produce. 

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As someone who has been trying to create a competitive list for the entire year, I actually feel that it is quite difficult to build a list as competitive or better without Gavriel in it. I’ve just recently started running Gavriel , and the difference in power output is night and day from where I was before. There are a handful of alternative lists, but if you’re doing something remotely involving combat, Gavriel just makes it better. The other alternatives are essentially a handful of shooting gimmick lists, but I would hesitate to say they are better, at best perhaps just laterally different.

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27 minutes ago, Starset said:

Are there any competitive cavalry based armies rolling around? The best thing I can find is taking 1 unit of  6 Evos on Dracolines and 1 unit of palladors lead by Vandus Hammerhand.

I'd think dracoths would be better than dracolines, but it depends on how many MWs are flying around where you play.

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33 minutes ago, Starset said:

Are there any competitive cavalry based armies rolling around? The best thing I can find is taking 1 unit of  6 Evos on Dracolines and 1 unit of palladors lead by Vandus Hammerhand.

Stardrake and Fulminators can likely still work, but may get shut down by lots of mortal wounds or tough screens.

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9 hours ago, PJetski said:

You can't declare charges unless you are within 12" of your target. If screened properly, you can completely deny a Gavriel charge.

Gavriel lists are not objectively bad but they're far from the best Stormcast list

This comment kinda optimizes how some people don't quiet get it 

 

as stated. you only have to be in 12 inches of A model to declare a charge , your under no obligation to actually charge it if you roll more

 

with some ranged pew pew (judes, magic, heraldor)  you can quiet easily make holes and charge through them

or stagger charge  - where by 2+ units hit, the first wipes out the screen and then the second unit piles in putting to the gap putting you in range of what they were protecting. This is even easier with the 3 inch evo zaps

and before you say "just deploy even deeper then".... if people want to give up that much board control...then that can be just as detrimental than not screening at all

just cos gav lists can charge turn one, doesn't be mean they have to. They can quiet easily just turtle on objectives if the enemy deploys too far back, taking them out of the game

Edited by wanderingrogue
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30 minutes ago, wanderingrogue said:

This comment kinda opitimizes how some people don't quiet get it 

 

as stated. On only have to be in 12 inches of A model to declare a charge , your under no obligation to actually charge it if you roll more

 

with some range you can quiet easily make holes and charge through them

or stager charge  -where by 2 units hit, the first wipes out the screen and then the second unit piles in putting you in range of what they were protecting. This is even easier with the 3 inch evo zaps

and before you say "just deploy even deeper then".... if people want to give up that much board controll...then that can be just as detrimental than not screening at all

just cos gav lists can charge turn one, doesn't be mean they have to. They can quiet easily just turtle on objectives if the enemy deploys too far back, taking them out of the game

Yeah.. Gav hits the nail on the head. PJetski you just have to be within 12" of a A Unit. Deep strike, make a hole, pop 2-3 command abilities, charge 15-18 inches and a pile in is much more of a reality then "You can't charge if you're not within 12" of the target" 

And exactly as gary says, if you deploy SO deep you can't possibly happen.. just give the opponent turn one and wait for them to make a gap, if they don't they're not grabbing objectives. 

The list isn't only a Gavriel charge but it's a massive part of the list which I think saying "Isn't in the top 5" when it has placed well and now won SummerBOBO and CrimBOBO is a bit contrary to the actual stats. 

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If you don't shoot the screen then you get blocked by the screen. If you take down the screen then you don't have a valid charge because you are more than 12" from any enemy.

You can't just "make a hole" because your opponent chooses which models to pull. With good positioning  you can pull models such that you pull the enemy out of a 12" charge or you deny them space in melee against the targets you care about.

It's not possible to make a Gavriel list that fulfills all these requirements:
1. Has enough command points (3-4) on turn one to guarantee the charge and get a good wrap
2. Has enough shooting to take down screens
3. Has enough Evocators for the charge to do significant damage on targets that matter

If you are not dropping the Evocators into play on turn 1 then a competent opponent will spread his army out to take the rest of the board, take the objectives that you have given up by not placing a big chunk of your army on the table, and it's an uphill battle from there.

People have known how to stop turn 1 charges for 2+ years now... it's not a difficult strategy to beat. Good players will get caught unaware by it once and then never lose to it again. Stormcast can do much better than this poor gimmick.

Untitled.png

Edited by PJetski
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Lots of deep insights into how to win with Stormcast here by Chrimbobo winner Gary Percival! Not just lists, also some very important ways in which the list has to be utilised to get the most out of it and why "gavbomb" is a highly underrepresented top tier list.

http://podcast.justplaygames.uk/chrimbobo-winner-interview-gary-percivals-stormcast-eternals

Edited by ianob
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