AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[The World Tree]

double post

Edited October 28, 2018 by The World Tree

[Bradipo322]

15 hours ago, xking said:

I would like to ask the people of this tread, Why did you decide to play stormcast eternals? do you like anything about them?

I really like the good guys (and they are one of the few, if not the only ones, in all factions to be truly good) and lighting-wielding paladins in golden armor are just epic.

[Black Blade]

16 hours ago, PJetski said:

Prosecutors should be 3 wounds each or cost 20 less points and be a battleline option

 

15 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

I'd really like another flying hero (I know, we already have 2) that would make them battleline as the general. I'd love for the hammer wielders to get a bump in combat stats too; the javelins are ok as is probably.

Most "first wave" units should have a combat buff. Looking at you liberators, bloodwarriors and paladins. Things were less killy across the board. Magic was less potent and mortal wounds or rending was much more sparse in most cases. Liberators should get the wound and hit profiles or sequitors. Bloodwarriors and Paladins should get another attack on their profile. Prosecutors should have another wound and another attack on their profile or maybe two heavy weapons per unit.

[Nos]

On 10/27/2018 at 8:39 PM, xking said:

I would like to ask the people of this tread, Why did you decide to play stormcast eternals? do you like anything about them? 

I play stormcast because  I like paladins and the aesthetic, I like that they represent Noblebright themes.

The classical aesthetic primarily. The models are great from a painting perspective in that they look respectable without much work but really allow you to invest if you're so inclined as well. Nice variety of textures and shapes to paint. They're also pretty much the only combined arms force in AOS at present. Well, that have a battle tome at any rate.

[Mark Williams]

18 minutes ago, xking said:

Interesting answers. Anybody read  the books? You got favorite stormcast character?    Hamilcar Bear-Eater and Gardus the Steel-Soul are some of my favorites.

I've bought Soul Wars, but haven't finished reading it yet. I'm enjoying it though.

As for why I'm playing SCE, to be honest it was because that's what was in the starter box. I never put the chaos models together, so they are still in the box. I decided to do the Stormcast first because I got a free model from the magazine in the store, and I'd already painted it, plus bought one of those starter paint sets, so I already had the paints I needed. Everything is in the Hammers of Sigmar color scheme because that's what was in the tutorial videos. I'm basically about as vanilla as it gets.

[Synidus]

On 10/25/2018 at 9:55 PM, HammerOfSigmar said:

ballista out of 18' (1a 3+to hit 3+ to wound)average damage without considering the save rolls and other debuffs:

without ordinator 2/3*3.5*2/3=14/9=1.55 with ordinator 5/6*3.5*2/3=35/18=1.94

within 18'(4a 5+to hit 3+to wound) average damage without considering the save rolls and other debuff:

without oridinator 4*1/3*3.5*2/3=28/9=3.11 with ordinator 4*1/2*3.5*2/3=14/3=4.67

 

So to summarize this:

The Ballista's best output is within 18"?

Would it be better to have 2 ballistas without ordinator or 1 ballista with an ordinator?

[Black Blade]

42 minutes ago, Synidus said:

So to summarize this:

The Ballista's best output is within 18"?

Would it be better to have 2 ballistas without ordinator or 1 ballista with an ordinator?

That's easy, two ballistas without an Ordinator. He is kinda too expensive now and his buff is ok to warmachines but not something you can't get for cheaper elsewhere. I would take an Azyros long before I would take an Ordinator. 

[schwabbele]

2 hours ago, Black Blade said:

but not something you can't get for cheaper elsewhere

How?

2 hours ago, Black Blade said:

I would take an Azyros long before I would take an Ordinator. 

Not sure about that. reroll 1s isn't the same as +1 to hit. Maybe against chaos and blow him up the round after

[Lucur]

19 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

How?

Not sure about that. reroll 1s isn't the same as +1 to hit. Maybe against chaos and blow him up the round after

It's statistics. The Ordinator doesn't generate value outside the +1 to hit for the ballistae while he's hanging back, so you pay 140pts for that. The Azyros grants reroll 1s for evetybody, melee and ranged, and is more likely to get into melee (although he won't win a war...) and also has the MW bomb once a game. Thus the Azyros is considered universally more useful by himself anf the Ordinator generates value for three or more ballistae, otherwise more ballistae generate more shots (and wounds), assuming he won't get to melee or use his CA.

[schwabbele]

15 minutes ago, Lucur said:

It's statistics.

Care to back that up with some calculations? 

 

 

 

[Bellfree]

2 hours ago, Lucur said:

It's statistics. The Ordinator doesn't generate value outside the +1 to hit for the ballistae while he's hanging back, so you pay 140pts for that. The Azyros grants reroll 1s for evetybody, melee and ranged, and is more likely to get into melee (although he won't win a war...) and also has the MW bomb once a game. Thus the Azyros is considered universally more useful by himself anf the Ordinator generates value for three or more ballistae, otherwise more ballistae generate more shots (and wounds), assuming he won't get to melee or use his CA.

The Azyros is NOT considered "universally more useful" than the ordinator. There are situations where, and reason why, an Ordinator would be more valuable. The biggest one being that the ordinator will probably survive multiple turns whereas the Azyros probably won't considering the giant sparkly target that 10" range reroll aura puts over his head. If you're using multiple ballista and 1 unit or less of Judicators than the Ordinator getting 3-4 turns to buff  will get you more than the azyros's 1. Oh, and you don't want either character in melee ever if you can avoid it so getting there more easily isn't much of a positive.

That said, I probably wouldn't take either unless I was running a full 4 ballista list(ordinator obvs) or an 'OTK' deepstrike list (Azyros).

[Synidus]

Guys, I'm split over two options and I'd really appreciate your help.

This is my current list.

2000 Points Tempest Lords

Lord-Aquilor - Relic(Patrician's Helm) - 200
Knight-Incantor - 140
Knight-Heraldor - 100

Evocators - 10 man - Celestial Blades - 5 Grandstaves - 400
Vanguard Hunters - 5 man - Axes -120
Vanguard Hunters - 5 man - Axes -120
Vanguard Hunters - 5 man - Sabres -120
Vanguard Palladors - 6 man - Javelins - 400
Vanguard Raptors - 6 man - Hurricane Crossbows - 280

Endless Spells:
Everblaze Comet - 100
Shackles - 20

Total: 2000

The question is simply this:

Should i replace the Hurricane Crossbow Raptors with 2 Knight-Venators? 

The Raptors provide a large number of shots (54 to be exact) and a -1" charge debuff. BUT at 4+ to hit & to wound, with no rend, they won't exactly be doing THAT much damage. Also, their mobility is limited to the Aquilor - if i don't have the extra CP for that turn, they aren't going anywhere. So they may not be as useful for capture objectives. But they still have a huge number of shots. How i plan to use these guys is to support the Palladors & Evocators as they strike a flank.

 

On the other hand - 2 knight-venators on the other hand, have less shots (basically 24 shots between the two of them), which are of better quality, at a much better range, on a naturally more mobile platform. So their role is primarily objective grabbing so that I don't really need to split up my main force. This would also give me 40 extra points to perhaps get another endless spell or something like that.

 

What do you guys think? Stick with raptors or go double venator?

[Lucur]

4 hours ago, schwabbele said:

Care to back that up with some calculations? 

 

 

 

A ballista puts out 4 × 1/3 × 7/2 =4,66 hits at 100pts, so 0,046 hits ppt.

An Ordinator, assuming he generates no value outside +1to hit for ballistae, generates 4 × 1/6 × 7/2 =2,22 hits per ballista he is buffing at 140 pts. That's 0,016 hits ppt AND ballista.

At three ballistae he  thus adds 0,048 hits ppt, which is just a smidge more than an other ballista would get, while being way better at 4.

@bellfree: what i meant by generally more useful is that a) his rr1s can be used by all units, not only warmachines and b) his higher movement is straight superior. Also the Azyros is plain cheaper and can hold a lantern artefact for what that's worth. I see him as useful outside the circumstances you described, however ymmv.

[FPC]

2 hours ago, Lucur said:

assuming he generates no value outside +1to hit for ballistae,

How about the battleshock immunity his command ability gives?  Could be huge in a pinch.

[PJetski]

2 minutes ago, FPC said:

How about the battleshock immunity his command ability gives?  Could be huge in a pinch.

Inspiring Presence exists, so I can't imagine this kind of pinch

[AdamR]

4 hours ago, Synidus said:

Guys, I'm split over two options and I'd really appreciate your help.

This is my current list.

2000 Points Tempest Lords

Lord-Aquilor - Relic(Patrician's Helm) - 200
Knight-Incantor - 140
Knight-Heraldor - 100

Evocators - 10 man - Celestial Blades - 5 Grandstaves - 400
Vanguard Hunters - 5 man - Axes -120
Vanguard Hunters - 5 man - Axes -120
Vanguard Hunters - 5 man - Sabres -120
Vanguard Palladors - 6 man - Javelins - 400
Vanguard Raptors - 6 man - Hurricane Crossbows - 280

Endless Spells:
Everblaze Comet - 100
Shackles - 20

Total: 2000

The question is simply this:

Should i replace the Hurricane Crossbow Raptors with 2 Knight-Venators? 

The Raptors provide a large number of shots (54 to be exact) and a -1" charge debuff. BUT at 4+ to hit & to wound, with no rend, they won't exactly be doing THAT much damage. Also, their mobility is limited to the Aquilor - if i don't have the extra CP for that turn, they aren't going anywhere. So they may not be as useful for capture objectives. But they still have a huge number of shots. How i plan to use these guys is to support the Palladors & Evocators as they strike a flank.

 

On the other hand - 2 knight-venators on the other hand, have less shots (basically 24 shots between the two of them), which are of better quality, at a much better range, on a naturally more mobile platform. So their role is primarily objective grabbing so that I don't really need to split up my main force. This would also give me 40 extra points to perhaps get another endless spell or something like that.

 

What do you guys think? Stick with raptors or go double venator?

How are you getting 12 shots out of each Knight Venator?

 

[AdamR]

1 minute ago, PJetski said:

Inspiring Presence exists, so I can't imagine this kind of pinch

The sort of pinch where you're not within 12" of your general perhaps? Although having to be wholly within for the ordinators ability makes it of questionable use for large units. So howabout where you are taking Battleshock on multiple units?

[PJetski]

All heroes can use Inspiring Presence, not just the general

[AdamR]

Yeah, but the range is shorter!

[Freejack02]

5 hours ago, Synidus said:

Guys, I'm split over two options and I'd really appreciate your help.

This is my current list.

2000 Points Tempest Lords

Lord-Aquilor - Relic(Patrician's Helm) - 200
Knight-Incantor - 140
Knight-Heraldor - 100

Evocators - 10 man - Celestial Blades - 5 Grandstaves - 400
Vanguard Hunters - 5 man - Axes -120
Vanguard Hunters - 5 man - Axes -120
Vanguard Hunters - 5 man - Sabres -120
Vanguard Palladors - 6 man - Javelins - 400
Vanguard Raptors - 6 man - Hurricane Crossbows - 280

Endless Spells:
Everblaze Comet - 100
Shackles - 20

Total: 2000

The question is simply this:

Should i replace the Hurricane Crossbow Raptors with 2 Knight-Venators? 

The Raptors provide a large number of shots (54 to be exact) and a -1" charge debuff. BUT at 4+ to hit & to wound, with no rend, they won't exactly be doing THAT much damage. Also, their mobility is limited to the Aquilor - if i don't have the extra CP for that turn, they aren't going anywhere. So they may not be as useful for capture objectives. But they still have a huge number of shots. How i plan to use these guys is to support the Palladors & Evocators as they strike a flank.

 

On the other hand - 2 knight-venators on the other hand, have less shots (basically 24 shots between the two of them), which are of better quality, at a much better range, on a naturally more mobile platform. So their role is primarily objective grabbing so that I don't really need to split up my main force. This would also give me 40 extra points to perhaps get another endless spell or something like that.

 

What do you guys think? Stick with raptors or go double venator?

Personally, I would cut the Comet - only having a single caster with no bonus to cast makes it a riskier play than I would prefer. If you cut that and 3 Hurricane Raptors, you can snugly fit in 2 Venators and keep 3 Hurricanes. 

If that's not an option, I would choose the Raptors over the Venators. 

[Synidus]

1 hour ago, AdamR said:

How are you getting 12 shots out of each Knight Venator?

 

Oops, i meant 12 shots total

[FPC]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

All heroes can use Inspiring Presence, not just the general

Right but it can only affect 1 unit.  This would give your whole army or a large amount of it (assuming you're bricked up) battleshock immunity.  Definitely circumstantial but still refutes the Ordinator "generating no value outside +1 to hit..."

Just saying, comparing both characters is only so useful.  One buff does not define a character, no matter how critical that buff may be.  There's always a circumstance where X may be better than Y, even though in some ways Y beats X on paper.

[PJetski]

How often do multiple units need to take battleshock that could result in significant losses to each unit?

How often is the Ordinator, a hero that babysits Ballistas, near those units that need battleshock immunity?

If you are bringing an Ordinator then you are taking multiple Ballistas, in which case you wont have many units that actually need to take Battleshock. If you need area battleshock immunity there are other options available in the battletome. The Ordinators command ability is bordering on useless and is not worth consideration.

[Black Blade]

9 hours ago, schwabbele said:

Care to back that up with some calculations? 

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Lucur said:

It's statistics. The Ordinator doesn't generate value outside the +1 to hit for the ballistae while he's hanging back, so you pay 140pts for that. The Azyros grants reroll 1s for evetybody, melee and ranged, and is more likely to get into melee (although he won't win a war...) and also has the MW bomb once a game. Thus the Azyros is considered universally more useful by himself anf the Ordinator generates value for three or more ballistae, otherwise more ballistae generate more shots (and wounds), assuming he won't get to melee or use his CA.

 Honestly you could do these calculations pretty easily on your own but @Lucur pretty much summed up why I said take an Azyros over the Lord Ord., ill go ahead and elaborate further. For 40 points less you get a mortal wound bomb and a re-roll 1's aura in a 20" bubble that affects shooting and melee attacks. The Azyros is also quite mobile making him a flexible asset. If you are trying to have a 3 or 4 war-machine knot that holds down a corner take the Ordinator but the Azyros gives you a similar buff with additional utility that out stripes the Ordinator with 1 or 2 ballista. Plus people won't despise you for taking an azyros and ballista the same as if you take 4 ballista and Ordinator and just table them so they didnt even get to play the game.

[FPC]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

How often do multiple units need to take battleshock that could result in significant losses to each unit?

How often is the Ordinator, a hero that babysits Ballistas, near those units that need battleshock immunity?

If you are bringing an Ordinator then you are taking multiple Ballistas, in which case you wont have many units that actually need to take Battleshock. If you need area battleshock immunity there are other options available in the battletome. The Ordinators command ability is bordering on useless and is not worth consideration.

Ok. I guess you must win because you asked a series of rhetorical questions. ?

But to answer those questions...more than one unit needed battle shock? Depends on the army. But if you DO have multiple test, in an army with 0 single wound models, every fail, even by 1, is big in my mind.  So far because of the models I have I’ve run 2x10 Sequitors, who could EASILY both take enough casualties to necessitate a dangerous battleshock.

Balistas can deepstrike with your lines of advanced troopa, and can keep up fine with 2” less move than most troops.  An 36” diameter bubble is quite large, and the ordinator needs to be working 9”. Not seeing an issue there.

What other area battleshock immunity is there (legit asking, not THAT well versed in all of SCE units yet). If there are others, are they relevant to this comparison? If not it’s not really a strong argument.  My point wasn’t “take an ordinator for his command ability” it was to refute that he ONLY brings the +1.   Again, will multiple units needed battleshock immunity come up every game? No. Could the Azyros die before his MW bomb? Sure, but you’re not taking that out of the equation. 

Either way there’s obviously no convincing you, even tho it’s been pointed out what uses the Ordinator brings (not the least of which being he’ll almost certainly last longer). ??