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AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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1 minute ago, IRifter said:

That's actually a really good use for the comet. But its still countered heavily by a lens.

Lens is less effective post FAQ, now it only protects a single unit per battle round, so your opponent has to pick who will take reduced damage from the comet rather than stopping everything. Spell mirror is a decent counter to the comet now but with a risk attached.

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Just now, yarrickson said:

There's  still what was called the 'Les Martin TM' list, Stardrake, 2*2 Fulminators, relictor, castellant, 2xjudicators, liberators, prosecutors, incantor, vexillor, heraldor. 

Just a really well rounded army that does well at most scenarios/types of game? 

Yea I remember that list, didnt use it much myself though.

I usually dont run my army without a lord castellant. That lantern is jsut too amazing. Im also a big fan of Lord Celestant on Dracoth + Fulminators and a Heraldor.

Didnt find a good use for my Lord Exorcist or Knight Incantor yet though

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1 minute ago, yarrickson said:

There's  still what was called the 'Les Martin TM' list, Stardrake, 2*2 Fulminators, relictor, castellant, 2xjudicators, liberators, prosecutors, incantor, vexillor, heraldor. 

Just a really well rounded army that does well at most scenarios/types of game? 

I've played it and talked to people who play it. The consensus is that it's straightforward strong, but as it does not really have a hard "win condition", it can have trouble closing out games. If you're strong at playing on the table, it can be quite powerful though.

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2 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I've played it and talked to people who play it. The consensus is that it's straightforward strong, but as it does not really have a hard "win condition", it can have trouble closing out games. If you're strong at playing on the table, it can be quite powerful though.

Do you mind sharing the actual new version of the List with all the new sacrosanct units available?

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7 minutes ago, IRifter said:

Do you mind sharing the actual new version of the List with all the new sacrosanct units available?

Mine using Evos, has worked fairly well:

Stardrake (Staunch, Ignax)
Castellant
Heraldor
Lord Arcanum on Foot (Azyrite Halo)

Liberators
Liberators
Liberators

Fulminators
Evocators x10 (Speed of Lightning)
Skinks
Skinks

Evos are just too good at hitting, to be honest, and the Arcanum's Cycle of the Storm will help the Evos and Fulminators an insane amount. I've seen people drop Fulmis for just another unit of 5 Evos as well, because they outdo them in damage, but I think the Fulmis bring speed and staying power, which is a nice balance. Lacks shooting, but you have to have some trade offs. Could just drop the Skinks to make Libs -> Judis, but the bodies are good for scoring.

7 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

damn :D

Not meant to be a zing at anyone, just that most people agree that the TM list has the best balance of speed, hitting power, and staying power, so if you're good at decision making it has really high output. It'll never have the instawin games that you get with Gavriel, nor the shutouts that you get with a shooting heavy army against people not designed to be shot, but it has consistent performance and no real downsides other than mass MW spam, which is less common nowadays (and SCE's weakness as it is).

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6 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Mine using Evos, has worked fairly well:

Stardrake (Staunch, Ignax)
Castellant
Heraldor
Lord Arcanum on Foot (Azyrite Halo)

Liberators
Liberators
Liberators

Fulminators
Evocators x10 (Speed of Lightning)
Skinks
Skinks

Evos are just too good at hitting, to be honest, and the Arcanum's Cycle of the Storm will help the Evos and Fulminators an insane amount. I've seen people drop Fulmis for just another unit of 5 Evos as well, because they outdo them in damage, but I think the Fulmis bring speed and staying power, which is a nice balance. Lacks shooting, but you have to have some trade offs. Could just drop the Skinks to make Libs -> Judis, but the bodies are good for scoring.

Not meant to be a zing at anyone, just that most people agree that the TM list has the best balance of speed, hitting power, and staying power, so if you're good at decision making it has really high output. It'll never have the instawin games that you get with Gavriel, nor the shutouts that you get with a shooting heavy army against people not designed to be shot, but it has consistent performance and no real downsides other than mass MW spam, which is less common nowadays (and SCE's weakness as it is).

That list is 2060 points btw :D

2 Things i dont like about that list:
-compared to other lists ranged combat is lackluster
-besides dropping via celestial realm most of these units are really slow moving

And one of my friends has this one list to just countering my stardrake which is really annoying, but thats a niche complaint. (He basically stacks -save debuffs with his nurgle army. even with staunch defender and lantern drake is at a 4+ save. Anything with rend suddenly kills him really fast and he cant heal anymore)

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40 minutes ago, IRifter said:

That list is 2060 points btw :D

2 Things i dont like about that list:
-compared to other lists ranged combat is lackluster
-besides dropping via celestial realm most of these units are really slow moving

And one of my friends has this one list to just countering my stardrake which is really annoying, but thats a niche complaint. (He basically stacks -save debuffs with his nurgle army. even with staunch defender and lantern drake is at a 4+ save. Anything with rend suddenly kills him really fast and he cant heal anymore)

It's 2000 flat. You may have been using the points from Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger, who is 60 points more than the foot version. The list specifically takes the foot version because of that.

Ranged as I said is lacking, but what you do have (Rain of Stars, Heraldor Horn, Prime Electrids, Fulminator Breath) is all MW and fairly reliable. Not shabby by any means. As for speed, Stardrake is move 13" with trait, Fulminators move 10", and if you use Heraldor Horn on the Evos plus blow the CP for auto max run, they're moving 11" and rerolling charges with their spell. More than enough to do the mid table fighting game.

Another version of this is to drop the Evos down to 5, swap the Arcanum for a Relictor, and take 2 more Fulminators, which is slightly less punching power but more spread out, and more ranged MWs. A bit of flexibility in list building. 

Edited by Requizen
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7 hours ago, Requizen said:

It's 2000 flat. You may have been using the points from Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger, who is 60 points more than the foot version. The list specifically takes the foot version because of that.

Ranged as I said is lacking, but what you do have (Rain of Stars, Heraldor Horn, Prime Electrids, Fulminator Breath) is all MW and fairly reliable. Not shabby by any means. As for speed, Stardrake is move 13" with trait, Fulminators move 10", and if you use Heraldor Horn on the Evos plus blow the CP for auto max run, they're moving 11" and rerolling charges with their spell. More than enough to do the mid table fighting game.

Another version of this is to drop the Evos down to 5, swap the Arcanum for a Relictor, and take 2 more Fulminators, which is slightly less punching power but more spread out, and more ranged MWs. A bit of flexibility in list building. 

I definitely like this list alot more than the Gav-Bomb list. While I do think that the list is really strong if used well, I dont think that it fits my playstile, i will definitely try out that list though (Im relatively sure that this list could take the fun out of the game for my opponents, since i usually play with my friends and most of them aren't really that competetive and seem to  like longer games. And even if I would win all the time, I'd not to be the one my friends don't want to play against)

What do you think about using straight up sequitors in this list and also the everblaze comet for denying space for my opponent? Like dropping it on an objective thats hard to reach? (I do love that meteor :D). That would mean dropping the fulminators though and giving lord arcanum staunch defender, which would force me to keep him clsoe to my stardrake. Essentially I'd have to split my army up in a support group for my drake (castellant+ arcanum) evocators + heraldor and 3x5 sequitors to play around objectives. The skinks would be kind of a wildcard putting them where i need them the most. Although Id have to buy them first :D.

 

Edit: Which weapon is considered better for the stardrake and which for evos? Also here is the list

EverblazeCometList.pdf

Edited by IRifter
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Evocators staves win the mathhammer battle over swords. But you only get staves in the multi-part box and the market is currently flooded with cheap starter kit sword evocators. I went all swords simply as a matter of cost. 

I'm prepared to be corrected. But I've only ever seen Lord Celestants on Star drake with Celestine Hammers, and a quick look at the profiles tells me I'd prefer the 2+ wound rolls over the chance of the occasional couple of extra hits. 

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59 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

I have to say, after playing vs a unit of Morsarr Guard, Evocators on foot are not undercosted (20 points at most) and evocators on dracolines are waaay over costed by at least 60 points.

Morsarr are definitely near the top of the power curve; we shouldn't be using the absolute best (undercosted) units to justify others being undercosted/overpowerd. 

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12 hours ago, IRifter said:

I asked about a competetive list earlier and the answer i got was gav-bomb.

Are there any other good lists out there? I dont really wanna buy 10 more evocators for 1 strategy

evocators are by far (with sequitors) our best unit, they are not good only in a gav bomb, they are awesome absolutely everywhere.

Even if GW decided to make them 260 pts they would be worth it

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53 minutes ago, ledha said:

evocators are by far (with sequitors) our best unit, they are not good only in a gav bomb, they are awesome absolutely everywhere.

 

That's true, but we have to be extra careful when they are not used in a bomb. They melt pretty fast when anything with rend goes against them.

Based on my last games I really like sequitors, especially with castellant buff - that is a nasty combo. I might even try a unit of 20 and just drop them in my enemy's face and watch him rage for the fun of it :)

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So, what about Vanguard Wing? While no longer a competitive powerhouse, maybe it is still good for a fun/semi-competitive list?

For example, consider this Battalion:

3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins, 1 x Stormsurge Trident (100)

3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins, 1 x Stormsurge Trident (100)

3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins, 1 x Stormsurge Trident (100)

10 x Judicators, Boltstorm Crossbows, 2 x Shockbolt Bows (320)

10 x Liberators, Warhammers, 2 x Grandhammers (200)

Vanguard Wing (140)

Judicators: Unit of 10 to make the battalion bonus worthwhile. Crossbows:  more shots = more 6’s to-hit = more bonus damage. Shockbolt Bow: generally considered better than the Thunderbolt Crossbow. In this case even more so, since the X-Bow has no to-hit roll and hence cannot generate additional damage, while on a 6 to-hit, each of the D6 hits from the Bow does 2 damage.

Liberators: With dual hammers, each 6 to-hit generates 2 hits, each wounding on 3+ and doing 2 damage. For them, the battalion bonus damage is harder to harvest than for the Judicators, since they preferably have to get into combat with a successful charge (Gavriel?), they should all be in combat and they have to be wholly within 16” of Prosecutors after charge and pile-in … hence taking a unit of 5 (equipment of choice) to save 100 points is also an option.

As it is, the battalion above covers 2 Battlelines and is 960 points, leaving 1040 for heroes and other units, for example:

Gavriel Sureheart (100)

Knight-Incantor (140)

Knight-Venator (120)

Knight-Azyros (100)

5 x Judicators, Skybolt Bows, 1 x Shockbolt Bow (160)

10 x Evocators (400)

Plus 20 for endless spell of choice.

With Gavriel, Azyros, 10 Judicators, Liberators and Evocators in the Celestial Realm. Of course, changing the Venator to something else is also an option.

As the army has a lot of shooting, the plan would be to remove/reduce screens with ranged attacks and bring in the CC units in the following turn. It also has some mobility in the form of Prosecutors and Venator for objective-grabbing.

Now that Scions is automatic, a unit of 6 to 9 Hammer-Prosecutors could also be worth considering, due to their 3d6 charge range. Sure, they cannot take on a heavy force on their own, but they can attack weaker/weakened units, support heroes, war machines and such …

What do you think?
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58 minutes ago, PlayerOfGames said:

So, what about Vanguard Wing? While no longer a competitive powerhouse, maybe it is still good for a fun/semi-competitive list?

Yeah, for fun it will work. Liberators really don't worth wasting everything that can make this list good for stupid surecharge, because they will hit like pillows. Getting crossbows packed in big unit means troubles if they get charged, so probably will take shield libs to protect them with a little more chances to fight back due to battalion.
Honestly I'd go with bows here, don't waste Scion slots, bigger threat range, less likely to get into combat ect. 
More than 3 melee prosecutors are never worth considering unless you just want to run something really silly, 3 will manage backfield harrassing just fine and don't need Gavriel with tambourine to be placed well after reserve charge and you'll be better spending those points that you are willing to spend on bigger prosecutor unit on relictor or ballista. 
The only good thing I can say about VW now is that buff range is not a problem at all, I easily managed to fit 30 semi-spread out libs into bubble from 6 prosecutors, so getting anything 20 models or less will be easy as pie, even with 3 man unit of prosecutors.

At it's current state I see vanguard wing as collection of solid units that will find their place in any match-up (even our overcosted wing boys)

Edited by XReN
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So I've been batting this list around for a while now.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Astral Templars
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Lord-Ordinator (140)
- General
- Trait: Dauntless Hunters 
- Artefact: Godbeast Plate 
Celestant-Prime (340)

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 131
 

The basic idea is that 8 units of Aetherwings and 1 unit of Liberators start on the board, and everything else starts in Scions.

Turn 1, you drop and basically just shred everything you can. Everything in the army gets +1 to hit against monsters. The Aetherwings are used to zone out your deployment zone and to fly around the board grabbing objectives and basically being a nuisance. You also fly them near where you're going to drop the raptors and they serve as anti-assault units as well.

I did a few mock-up dice rolls against a "monster" with 4 ballistas rapid firing and hitting on 3+, and score somewhere between 30 and 50 hits just with the ballistas and not even shooting the other stuff. You definitely be able to clear out an area of the board enough to avoid getting counter-assaulted, and from there you basically just create a giant "no go" zone where you can't be approached by pretty much anything.

Thoughts? Honestly this feels almost broken to me, and I feel like there might even be room for improvement...

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Feels like another Surecharge gimmick. Have to point out that it is auto lose on any "heroes score" mission, as well as total commitment, won't play this at tournament unless there is no such missions (need to say that my local meta influinces my view heavily)

But it also can hard-counter hero dependant armies I guess

You should definitely try this and tell us how it plays

Edited by XReN
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1 hour ago, XReN said:

Yeah, for fun it will work. Liberators really don't worth wasting everything that can make this list good for stupid surecharge, because they will hit like pillows. Getting crossbows packed in big unit means troubles if they get charged, so probably will take shield libs to protect them with a little more chances to fight back due to battalion.
Honestly I'd go with bows here, don't waste Scion slots, bigger threat range, less likely to get into combat ect. 
More than 3 melee prosecutors are never worth considering unless you just want to run something really silly, 3 will manage backfield harrassing just fine and don't need Gavriel with tambourine to be placed well after reserve charge and you'll be better spending those points that you are willing to spend on bigger prosecutor unit on relictor or ballista. 
The only good thing I can say about VW now is that buff range is not a problem at all, I easily managed to fit 30 semi-spread out libs into bubble from 6 prosecutors, so getting anything 20 models or less will be easy as pie, even with 3 man unit of prosecutors.

At it's current state I see vanguard wing as collection of solid units that will find their place in any match-up (even our overcosted wing boys)

I'm thinking of using 6 prosecutors with shield because we never know if we don't try

Drop them via scion. 3D6 charge, fly so you can even fly over the tarpit or screens if needed. The goal here is to engage with the ennemy screens (in prevision of others units than he think you will drop and charge) and possibly make a mess in the opponent deployment zone, because 6 large base with the 3" of n go zone can block a surprising chunk of the battlefield. Prosecutors are not very resilient, but they are resilient enough to hold their own against tarpit/screening units (even more with the -1 to hit from scion).

Off course, it doesn't work if someone has retreat+charge or can kill them in the hero phase, but it could surprise some armies.

Edited by ledha
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7 minutes ago, ledha said:

I'm thinking of using 6 prosecutors with shield with sucess against some lists.

Drop them via scion. 3D6 charge, fly so you can even fly over the tarpit or screens if needed. The goal here is to engage with the ennemy screens (in prevision of others units than he think you will drop and charge) and possibly make a mess in the opponent deployment zone, because 6 large base with the 3" of n go zone can block a surprising chunk of the battlefield. Prosecutors are not very resilient, but they are resilient enough to hold their own against tarpit/screening units (even more with the -1 to hit from scion). I even used them to block some bestigors.

 

Off course, it doesn't work if someone has retreat+charge or can kill them in the hero phase, but it can surprise some armies.

If not considering scion slots and drops in total, will 2 units of 3 work less efficient than 1 unit of 6? I belive it's going to be more flexible, whille able to achive same goals as 1 unit, and also it will have back up in form of having 2 attempts to charge and it will less likely to lose unit by bravery if you take 2 casualties in 2 units, than taking 4 in 1

Edited by XReN
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Looks hilarious, Mark. My version of a shooting gimmick force is a bit different:

Anvils of the Heldenhammer, Shyish

Lord Relictor (General, Deathly Aura, Soulthief, Translocation)
Lord Celestant on Dracoth (Etheral Amulet)
Knight Venator

Liberators
Judicators
Judicators

Raptors with Longstrikes x6
Raptors with Longstrikes x6
Raptors with Hurricanes
Aetherwings
Aetherwings
Aetherwings

Vanguard Justicar Conclave

Just shoot everything. Aetherwings double as both charge denial if you hold back or screening/reroll buffs if you drop them. LCoD is a countercharge threat that's pretty hard to drop, and if you start the Longstrikes on the table, each one can shoot an extra time on T1 since you start with an extra CP (assuming something is in range). 

Loses immediately to anti-shooting lists. Wins immediately against armies that have to walk towards you to get into combat. Actually has a reasonable chance against Gav since you're so decentralized and should be able to cut down most things before they reach you, but depends heavily on the mission and positioning. 

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Rules question. How does the Longstrike's extra range ability work with Anvils of the Heldenhammer?

Quote

Add 6" to the Range characteristic of this unit’s Longstrike Crossbows if this unit did not move in the movement phase of the same turn.

So you use the Ability in the Hero Phase. It did not move in this turn's Movement Phase... yet, because it didn't happen yet. So, I get 6" extra? RAW would say yes, but it's clearly not written with this in mind.

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9 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Morsarr are definitely near the top of the power curve; we shouldn't be using the absolute best (undercosted) units to justify others being undercosted/overpowerd. 

Thats a fair statement and not one I disagree with, I should have to take more time to clarify my original comment as follows: "I have to say, after playing vs a unit of Morsarr Guard, Evocators on foot are not undercosted (20 points at most) and evocators on dracolines are waaay over costed by at least 60 points... [provided Morrsarr are considered a fine and balanced unit; I say this because I have never heard them complained about in the way I have heard about sequitors and evocators.] I still stand by my statement with this clarification.

7 hours ago, ledha said:

evocators are by far (with sequitors) our best unit, they are not good only in a gav bomb, they are awesome absolutely everywhere.

Even if GW decided to make them 260 pts they would be worth it

They would be over-costed at 260 points and maybe still worth it to take them but not because they are fairly priced but because the rest of our elite options are also overcosted and evocators perform the best out of those elite units. Gav and Gav bomb is a problem, I hope they change their FAQ, it's a ridiculous interaction that leads to immersion breaking/game breaking results.

6 hours ago, schwabbele said:

That's true, but we have to be extra careful when they are not used in a bomb. They melt pretty fast when anything with rend goes against them.

Based on my last games I really like sequitors, especially with castellant buff - that is a nasty combo. I might even try a unit of 20 and just drop them in my enemy's face and watch him rage for the fun of it :)

This is the Achilles heal of Evocators, -1 rend. They just aren't that sturdy... and thats fine. I dont want to be misunderstood, it's fine that is their weakness and at 200pts its fair. Barring the toxic Gav bomb interactions, they are a great unit but one your opponent can try and react to if they are a good player and not just auto lose to them. 

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