AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Hoseman]

Thanks. So I can use the book Im happy...

Theyre driving me crazy with all this

[Reezark_SP]

15 minutes ago, Hoseman said:

Thanks. So I can use the book Im happy...

Theyre driving me crazy with all this

Same here! BTW they also said that any official changes will include designer's notes so if you see any changes in the app  that are out of the blue and don't have designer's notes just ignore them and stick with the book

[Tip4Tap]

Hey guys I’m starting a deepkin army for AoS 2. I’m looking for advice on the army. I’ve got a few tournaments coming up and want to take the deepkin to these.

So far the list I’ve come up with is this:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin

Realm: CHAMON

Enclave: FUETHÁN

LEADERS
Isharann Tidecaster 100 -General
--Born from Agony -Augury Shells -Spell: Abyssal Darkness

Isharann Soulscryer 100

Eidolon of Mathlann 440 -Spell: Steed of Tides

UNITS
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group

ENDLESS SPELLS Balewind Vortex 40

Total: 1980/2000

What do you guys think? 

[Pompe]

2 hours ago, Tip4Tap said:

Hey guys I’m starting a deepkin army for AoS 2. I’m looking for advice on the army. I’ve got a few tournaments coming up and want to take the deepkin to these.

So far the list I’ve come up with is this:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin

Realm: CHAMON

Enclave: FUETHÁN

LEADERS
Isharann Tidecaster 100 -General
--Born from Agony -Augury Shells -Spell: Abyssal Darkness

Isharann Soulscryer 100

Eidolon of Mathlann 440 -Spell: Steed of Tides

UNITS
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group

ENDLESS SPELLS Balewind Vortex 40

Total: 1980/2000

What do you guys think? 

Personally I feel that a AoS is too expensive compared to 6 morsar guard and a Tidecaster (or spellweaver) +20 points to aspare. Especially in a Fuethan list where you want superaggro. Bring a Balewind for the spare 40 points that you get and you have the same amount of spells to cast as well as some more range.

[newsun]

1 hour ago, Pompe said:

Personally I feel that a AoS is too expensive compared to 6 morsar guard and a Tidecaster (or spellweaver) +20 points to aspare. Especially in a Fuethan list where you want superaggro. Bring a Balewind for the spare 40 points that you get and you have the same amount of spells to cast as well as some more range.

I think it depends on unit roles. Bale could be shut down and Seadolon has a nice profile too in addition to his magic.

[HollowHills]

So as I understand it there is nothing against stacking volturnous command ability on turn three. So am I right in thinking the best list might be tons of morsarr and volturnous? 

[Unter]

20 hours ago, Tip4Tap said:

Hey guys I’m starting a deepkin army for AoS 2. I’m looking for advice on the army. I’ve got a few tournaments coming up and want to take the deepkin to these.

So far the list I’ve come up with is this:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin

Realm: CHAMON

Enclave: FUETHÁN

LEADERS
Isharann Tidecaster 100 -General
--Born from Agony -Augury Shells -Spell: Abyssal Darkness

Isharann Soulscryer 100

Eidolon of Mathlann 440 -Spell: Steed of Tides

UNITS
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group

ENDLESS SPELLS Balewind Vortex 40

Total: 1980/2000

What do you guys think? 

I don't think you'll do enough damage. Reavers are really poor (despite being cool models).

I'd consider dropping one of your Ishlaen units, and replacing it with 6 more Morsarr, as well as thinking about trading out Reavers for Thralls.

It's important to be realistic about the output of a single unit of Reavers. over 9" you'd expect 1.5 wounds per turn if you are shooting into a 4+ save, and you have a very good chance of doing 0 damage to a 3+ save.

Even at close range a full volley would only do 3/4 wounds into a 4+ save, and 2 wounds into a 3+.

This means that 420 points of your army shooting from distance into a 4+ save would do 3-4 wounds.

If you are taking them as objective grabbers they are neither cheap nor survivable, with low saves and low bravery. 

If you are looking for cheap, flexible objective grabbers, ally in some Khinerai Heartrenders, who you can deploy off the board before deep striking them in. You could take 10 of these in 2 units for 160 points, freeing up 260 points after dropping the reavers, that's enough for an Akhelian King!

Edited July 12, 2018 by Unter

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, HollowHills said:

So as I understand it there is nothing against stacking volturnous command ability on turn three. So am I right in thinking the best list might be tons of morsarr and volturnous? 

That or a generic king. I find the generic king easier to protect than vulturnous. 

[Stormy1486]

Any eel spam needs a delicate balance of both to ensure your morsarr dont get counter charged by hammers or bogged down by tarpits who can heal back up/engage the morsarr.

Thats why i like thralls - they wipe out even tanky heroes and chaff who will try to hold up your morsarr.

Having thralls also means your less reliant on morsarr doing all the heavy lifting, espc if you taking 30. Its unwieldy, but is really hard to push off objectives and when buffed by a king can really punish anyone who engages them.

Easy for me to say though - i take volutranos so my eels are battleline.

And yes from my reading you can save your command points to buff 6 units in high tide.

For me thats typically vol, 2 x 6 ishlaen, 1 x 6 morsarr, 1x3 morsarr, 30xthralls (you know...what ever has lived that far).

 

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Stormy1486 said:

Any eel spam needs a delicate balance of both to ensure your morsarr dont get counter charged by hammers or bogged down by tarpits who can heal back up/engage the morsarr.

Thats why i like thralls - they wipe out even tanky heroes and chaff who will try to hold up your morsarr.

Having thralls also means your less reliant on morsarr doing all the heavy lifting, espc if you taking 30. Its unwieldy, but is really hard to push off objectives and when buffed by a king can really punish anyone who engages them.

Easy for me to say though - i take volutranos so my eels are battleline.

And yes from my reading you can save your command points to buff 6 units in high tide.

For me thats typically vol, 2 x 6 ishlaen, 1 x 6 morsarr, 1x3 morsarr, 30xthralls (you know...what ever has lived that far).

 

I watched a few games with seraphim against thrall and the id player had no chance. 

 

With arcs of sorc clocking in a bunch of free damage, and basicly ignoring the thralls lack of surface area and damage. While slanns safely summoned all game. With out speed to threaten the slanns he hardly even had to screen, and damage falling limply against stuff ignoring the thralls rend they were just terrible. 

 

While my own experience getting blended by daughters I'm alot of levels over thralls or stremptijng to do anything with them where I care about their damage out put as it's rather low. 

 

On the super buff thing you really only need like a 3 or 6 man morrsarr squad getting +5 or more attacks as that makes those 3 more powerful than 9 morrsarr all hitting a nice small  area allowing you to blow through most important targets.  Or doing g similar with a turtle. 

 

I'm till waiting to be convinced by thralls imo. 

 

Currently my list is at:

King geneeal

Tide caster

Tidecaster

Tidecaster

Soulscryer

 

Royal court

 

9x ishlaen

3xmorrsar

3xmorrsar

 

Turtle

 

Cogs 

Geminids

 

 

[Stormy1486]

Thats fair - some matched play games where number of models on an objective capture in, i found without at least on blob to capture an objective, armies with cheaper battleline units will overwhelm the objectives.

Does a gaunt summoner look their way and blow them up? Yes. Just like my eiladon would be blasted off by NH/tzeentch mortal wound spam armies.

Ill be interested to see how the turtle goes.

I suspect some opponents/scenarios will make us wish we had a blob, some opponents wish you had something else

Also my army has 21 eels and volutranos, it isnt entire lacking damage.

Against something like witch elves its my job to engage them at high tide and debuff them as best as possible.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Stormy1486

[HollowHills]

So i currently have been playing with mostly thralls and reavers as that's what I bought first and haven't picked up many eels yet. As far as I'm concerned the thralls just aren't viable. 

They can do really great damage potential and there have been some good moments with them such as killing nagash and a maw crusher. The fact is though that at 1 wound 5up 6 bravery they deteriorate incredibly quickly. Even if you keep an eidolon nearby for the bravery buff it's not that hard to lose at least 10. The 5 up means they are super vulnerable against any kind of shooting even without rend, and in combat they hit hard but die faster.

Part of the problem is the bigger the unit you take the more units your opponent can get into combat. Even using a soul render doesn't keep them around long enough to do anything particularly useful. 

This has led me to conclude there is really no reason to take thralls. So I'm selling mine to fund an eel spree and hopefully recover my love of deepkin. 

[Pompe]

23 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

So i currently have been playing with mostly thralls and reavers as that's what I bought first and haven't picked up many eels yet. As far as I'm concerned the thralls just aren't viable. 

They can do really great damage potential and there have been some good moments with them such as killing nagash and a maw crusher. The fact is though that at 1 wound 5up 6 bravery they deteriorate incredibly quickly. Even if you keep an eidolon nearby for the bravery buff it's not that hard to lose at least 10. The 5 up means they are super vulnerable against any kind of shooting even without rend, and in combat they hit hard but die faster.

Part of the problem is the bigger the unit you take the more units your opponent can get into combat. Even using a soul render doesn't keep them around long enough to do anything particularly useful. 

This has led me to conclude there is really no reason to take thralls. So I'm selling mine to fund an eel spree and hopefully recover my love of deepkin. 

Two units of ten did their job great yesturday against a Stormcast list. One unit brought down the enemy general and the other stood their ground against a group of Evocators long enough for my eels to swoop in and eat them. Don´t dissmiss them totally

[Unter]

28 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

So i currently have been playing with mostly thralls and reavers as that's what I bought first and haven't picked up many eels yet. As far as I'm concerned the thralls just aren't viable. 

They can do really great damage potential and there have been some good moments with them such as killing nagash and a maw crusher. The fact is though that at 1 wound 5up 6 bravery they deteriorate incredibly quickly. Even if you keep an eidolon nearby for the bravery buff it's not that hard to lose at least 10. The 5 up means they are super vulnerable against any kind of shooting even without rend, and in combat they hit hard but die faster.

Part of the problem is the bigger the unit you take the more units your opponent can get into combat. Even using a soul render doesn't keep them around long enough to do anything particularly useful. 

This has led me to conclude there is really no reason to take thralls. So I'm selling mine to fund an eel spree and hopefully recover my love of deepkin. 

You are saying they are not viable...but also that they’ve killed Nagash for you…

 

Not many Battleline can do that.

 

I agree eels are a ‘better’ unit, but they fulfil different roles.

 

Thralls aren’t godly machines that will chew through any army. You pay a price (low survivability) for their value (high damage), and they are one of only 2 routes we have to getting bodies on the table

 

Given that many scenarios require models to hold an objective, you have to choose between Thralls, Reavers, or going all in on eels and making sure you kill enough of the enemy

 

As I’ve detailed above, Reavers damage output is practically non-existent, and they are just as easy to kill.

You shouldn’t expect your thralls to win you the game, but your opponent ignoring them (providing the rest of your list is decent), means they can often spring surprises

[JackStreicher]

I like my Reavers (style reasons) though they really never do anything and their melee attacks are better than their range attacks... they can skirmish a little I guess but currently they‘re overpriced for what they do (which is nothing at all). They‘d need to hit on 3s to do anything ever.

 

as for thrall: Thralls are great though they tend to die in one go. Perhaps you should hol them back until turn 3, then charge all in (using several units of 10) and hope to massacre the enemy.

apart from that I never take more than units of 10 due to battleshock losses hurt quite a lot.

 

the eels rock, though the morsarr guard is overpriced COMPARED to the ishlean guard. The 4+ ignoring rend is just way better than the once per battle MWs. Ishlean also deal damage in a way more consistent manner than their brethren (in my experience)

the leviadon is just all around great. =}

 

allopexes: they seem lackluster to me. Both the ranged attacks and the melee weapons seem lackluster for their points. They‘re really thematic though.

 

our heroes are fine except for the Soulscryer which is also lackluster (give him sth. He can fight with...his ability is fine and all but there‘s really not much to him)

Edited July 13, 2018 by JackStreicher

[Unter]

32 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I like my Reavers (style reasons) though they really never do anything and their melee attacks are better than their range attacks... they can skirmish a little I guess but currently they‘re overpriced for what they do (which is nothing at all). They‘d need to hit on 3s to do anything ever.

 

as for thrall: Thralls are great though they tend to die in one go. Perhaps you should hol them back until turn 3, then charge all in (using several units of 10) and hope to massacre the enemy.

apart from that I never take more than units of 10 due to battleshock losses hurt quite a lot.

 

the eels rock, though the morsarr guard is overpriced COMPARED to the ishlean guard. The 4+ ignoring rend is just way better than the once per battle MWs. Ishlean also deal damage in a way more consistent manner than their brethren (in my experience)

the leviadon is just all around great. =}

 

allopexes: they seem lackluster to me. Both the ranged attacks and the melee weapons seem lackluster for their points. They‘re really thematic though.

 

our heroes are fine except for the Soulscryer which is also lackluster (give him sth. He can fight with...his ability is fine and all but there‘s really not much to him)

I don't think it's the MW that are the main selling point of Morsarr, but the rend + damage on the spears.

We don't have a great deal of access to rend, and 3+/3+ - 2damage is extremely reliable, especially given our reliable access to rerolls

Ishlaenn damage is clearlydown compared to charging Morsarr, which you can almost definitely guarantee with soulscryer and their charge reroll. Plus you have a 50/50 for a double turn which can give you access to a double charge.

Anyway, let's do the numbers!

Both examples will use 3 models from each variant of Guard, fighting against a 4+ save, which is pretty common. I'm not accounting for the Prince's attack's, though this would tilt the example further in favour of Morsarr

Both sets of Guard are likely to do 3 wounds with their identical mounts:

1 wound from Fanged Maw
2 wounds from Lashing Tail

Ishlaenn Guard have a 62% chance of doing 2 wounds with their swords, and only a 30% chance to do 3 wounds

Bringing Ishlaenn to a total of 5 wounds

Morsarr Guard with spears on the charge have a 70% chance of doing 4 wounds, and a 30% chance of doing 6 wounds. 

So on the charge Morsarr will do 7 wounds to Ishlaenn's 5.

Without charging, the 3 Morsarr should do 1 wound between them with spears against a 4+ save, bringing their total to 4.

This means that when not charging, Morsarr are only 1 wound down on Ishlaenn's output, while on the charge, Morsarr pull out clearly ahead, with the added bonus of their MW output.

Furthermore, the variance in damage extends when you apply the Prince's attacks as well as any rerolls available.

Totally agree with you on Reavers, play them cause they look cool. I played like 3 games with them the other day though and I think they did about 2 wounds across all the games. Useful to leave them out front to be shot at, though!



 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Unter

[Drofnum]

If you can get charges off and kill the unit you charge, to then be able to charge another unit, Morrsarr are definitely miles above Ishlaen.  If you get bogged down in combat Ishlaen are better.  They both serve different roles.

Charging Morrsarr vs Charging Ishlaen, for anyone interested.  The damage done is their average damage.

 

 

And not charging:

[Skyel]

On 7/11/2018 at 6:40 PM, Tip4Tap said:

Hey guys I’m starting a deepkin army for AoS 2. I’m looking for advice on the army. I’ve got a few tournaments coming up and want to take the deepkin to these.

So far the list I’ve come up with is this:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin

Realm: CHAMON

Enclave: FUETHÁN

LEADERS
Isharann Tidecaster 100 -General
--Born from Agony -Augury Shells -Spell: Abyssal Darkness

Isharann Soulscryer 100

Eidolon of Mathlann 440 -Spell: Steed of Tides

UNITS
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
10 Namarti Reavers 140 -Icon Bearer
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
6 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard 280 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group
3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard 160 -Command Group

ENDLESS SPELLS Balewind Vortex 40

Total: 1980/2000

What do you guys think? 

This is literally my list from 6 Nations event. 
I love it. It's really agressive, fast and plays really well in all phases. 
I'm actually swapping out the balewind (and hence swapping spells on casters), and probably moving to an artefact on the scryer after 10+ games, but still needs some tweaking. 
Probably taking spell portal instead of balewind for Tsunami. 

[Pompe]

4 hours ago, Skyel said:

This is literally my list from 6 Nations event. 
I love it. It's really agressive, fast and plays really well in all phases. 
I'm actually swapping out the balewind (and hence swapping spells on casters), and probably moving to an artefact on the scryer after 10+ games, but still needs some tweaking. 
Probably taking spell portal instead of balewind for Tsunami. 

Would you mind doing a quick write-up of your experience?  Would love to hear your thoughts! Sorry if I missed it in the thread earlier. 

[Stormy1486]

Yeah im with pompe. After reading through some of the lists in 6 nations in very interested in how this lists functions. 

The format of the tournament gives you a chance to avoid unfavourable match ups though?

Does the eilodon make its points back? 

Im assuming the eels throw themselves into combat, and the reavers race to objectives to capture?

[OzAl]

Yo guys and girls. Thought I'd report on three 1000 point games I had today with an all eel list. All games were played on a 4x4 table. My plan is to continue to do these reports but with pictures. The army is only 25% painted so far but I'm working hard to get it done quick! 

The list was: 

Enclave: Dhom-Hain

Leaders:
Akhelian King with Bladed Polearm
Born From Agony (+2 wounds)
Armour of the Cythai (-1 to hit on melee)

Battleline: 
6 x Morrsarr Guard - full command (hammer squad)

3 x Morrsarr Guard - full command (scalpel squad)

3 x Ishlaen Guard - full command (anvil squad)

3 x Ishlaen Guard - full command (anvil squad)

Game One + Two

The first two games were against Ironjawz using a mawkrusha (with the ignore rend artefact), weirdnob shaman, 5 brutes, 3 gore-gruntas and 2 endless spells (cogs and pendulum).  His list wasn't great and definitely relied heavily on the mawkrusha.  

First game (No Scenario) - my opponent gave me first turn and I held back, forming a defensive perimeter with the ishlaen squads bubble-wrapping the king and morrsarr squads. I used the gloomtide as a mid-field obstacle. My opponent ran everything up. He won priority and double-turned me. He charged into the ishlaen squads and killed a couple from each squad. My turn 2 came around and the big morrsarr squad charged and killed the mawkrusha, the king charged and killed 2/3 gore-gruntas, and the small morrsarr squad charged and killed the shaman. I won the double turn this time and we called it. As all the eels would wipe out his last unit of brutes. MAJOR

Second game (Duality of Death) - my opponent gave me first turn again and I pushed sideways to hold the right-side objective with my king. The 2 units of Ishlaen bubble-wrapped him. The hammer unit followed behind and the scalpel unit moved to the other side of the board to threaten the other objective. The mawkrusha double-moved forward with his ironjawz move and his regular move and charged the big morrsarr squad, taking out 3. No other units made their charge. I won priority on turn 2 and the small unit of morrsarr helped take out the mawkrusha. The ishlaen and king all moved away from the objective and took out the gore-gruntas and brutes. My opponent called it at the beginning of his turn 2 when his shaman failed to cast the pendulum. MAJOR

Game Three

Third Game (Duality of Death) - this game was against a more competitive blightking list with the blightcyst formation: harbinger, lord of blights, 3 units of 5 blightkings and the formation that gives the -1 rend, etc...

My opponent took first turn and moved up but couldn't quite reach the objectives. I responded in my turn by moving back into the corner. My strategy was to bide time until turn 2 and use high tide in turn 3 to get rid of his heroes and 5+ shrug saves. The blightkings won priority for turn 2 and took the turn. They moved forward more and huddled around an objective. 

With the potential for the double turn (and high tide coming anyway), all the eels moved up and charged. The middle blightking unit was charged by the hammer squad and the king. The left blightking unit was charged by the ishlaen. The lord of blights was charged by the scalpel squad. The right blightking unit was charged by the ishlaen. The middle squad lost 4/5. Both others lost 1/5 and failed to do much damage in return due to the 3+ ishlaen saves. The scalpel unit killed the lord of blights. Idoneth won the turn 3 priority roll. The king used the command ability to give extra attacks to the morrsarr squads and high tide saw the eels kill the harbinger and mop up the rest of the blightkings. MAJOR

Key Points

- I had initially considered using a tidecaster with 40pts of endless spells rather than the second ishlaen unit. Although I was concerned with the lack of magic, having two units of ishlaen was crucial to pre-emptively strike high damage dealers like the blightkings. I may change my mind against magic heavy armies like death and tzeentch but it remains to be seen. 

- Eel mobility is game changing. The ability to dictate the terms of the fight won me the games. 

- The ability to use the tide table to tailor the list's tactics to different enemy armies was fantastic. Against armies like blightkings that can survive a heavy hit, it was vital that the eels' main assault revolved around high tide to limit return damage. 

More battle reports to come...next time with pictures! 

[Curzex]

Any try allies like tenebrael shard or mistweaver?

Tenebrael got buff with new realm items. 

The one that do mortal wounds at 6+ hit plus the teleport ability that gives you +1 yo hit. ( remember he has 6 attacks).

Mistweaver have good move 8" and 24" spell range that does MW. 100 points the same as our mage.

[Drofnum]

11 minutes ago, Curzex said:

Any try allies like tenebrael shard or mistweaver?

Tenebrael got buff with new realm items. 

The one that do mortal wounds at 6+ hit plus the teleport ability that gives you +1 yo hit. ( remember he has 6 attacks).

Mistweaver have good move 8" and 24" spell range that does MW. 100 points the same as our mage.

Dont think they are in the list of allied factions available, are they?  Unless they got moved to a different faction than just Aelfs.

[Nico]

Yep - you can’t ally them and no Artefacts for Allies either. Good shout for Mixed Order though.

[Curzex]

Oh thats totally true, so i was cheating lol. 

Edit: So at the moment the only faction that can allie with both IS Stormcast LOL im think this is a mistake

Edited July 15, 2018 by Curzex