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AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion


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26 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

We had a question about forgotten nightmares. Some gunners were 4 inches away from a Leviadon and the gunners were stretched out 15 inches away. The furthest gunners were 6 inches from Thralls. 

The question is do the gunners have to split their attacks or can they all shoot the Leviadon because he is the closest Deepkin unit to the unit of gunners? 

Yea, they have to  all shoot the leviadon, as that is the closest to the unit (which even though is stretched out, is still the closest) as they cannot target the thralls.

Edited by Acid_Nine
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Volturnos is ready to rock    

Ok so here is my first Deepkin build painted and ready to go. After I came up with color scheme the army was done by good friend of mine from Micro Art Studio. Can't wait to give it a go soon :D  

Hey guys, been working on an Idoneth "counts-as" army for a few months. Never been a fan of the flying fish on land idea, but love the rules and wanted to keep a nautical motif, so: birds. I've tried

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On 7/12/2019 at 3:08 PM, smartalek said:

This 3 drop list is currently what I was thinking of:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Lord of Storm and Sea 
- Artefact: Augury Shells 
- Lore of the Deeps: Abyssal Darkness
Isharann Soulrender (80)
- Artefact: Lliandra's Last Lament 
Branchwych (80)
Treelord Ancient (300)
Branchwraith (80)
- Allies
20 x Namarti Thralls (260)
10 x Namarti Reavers (130)
10 x Dryads (100)
10 x Dryads (100)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (120)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (340)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (170)
Alliance of Wood and Sea (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

Let's me flip the tides and strike fast, but also the Branchwraith to summon more dryads and tie up one section of the board. I figured the Soulrender would give some resilience to the Namarti, especially with the artefact.

I remembered why I didn't want to go with summons, the Dryads you summon, do not benefit from the tides, unless you take the enclave that lets allies get it, even then I'm not sure. 

You can not use the tide with Fuethan as your enclave with summoned models for sure though, as they are not part of the battalion .

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10 minutes ago, Robert said:

Hello everyone. I've been reading the idoneth deepkin book and came across the enclave section. My question is, can I use multiple enclaves if I where to complete the phalanx. Or does it haft to be one?

Just the one enclave. You can use multiple battalions if you have the points for them. 

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On 7/13/2019 at 12:16 PM, Nerdkingdan said:

I remembered why I didn't want to go with summons, the Dryads you summon, do not benefit from the tides, unless you take the enclave that lets allies get it, even then I'm not sure. 

You can not use the tide with Fuethan as your enclave with summoned models for sure though, as they are not part of the battalion .

Yeah I don't think the Branchwraith or summoned dryads will get any tide benefits.  The plan for them is to defensively hold space/objectives, so they shouldn't need the tide benefits too much. They do just fine at being sticky in Sylvaneth without any additional benefits.

Unfortunately, I didn't get a game in this weekend. Maybe I'll be able to on Wednesday? We'll see.

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11 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

A summer class really cut down my warhammer games unfortunately.  anyone have any interesting findings in recent games? (I promise I won't just yell "eels are better" )

Not sure it’s interesting, but 130 points is still way too many points for thralls and reavers.   It has nothing to do with the eels being better, it’s more like eels work and the Namarti don’t.

Base too big, attack’s too low, no bravery mechanics to keep them on the table without command points, 2 wound models are everywhere and base save too low.  

Reavers with shots, 8 move are more reliable than the thralls in terms of having some impact, still poor performers

I can not send Namarti into anything of roughly equal points and expect them to win or live even one combat phase.

Annoyed I bought so many, when really they are just a tax for tide flip.

 

Edited by Nerdkingdan
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Thats maaaaaybe true for Reavers, Thralls are pretty damn good for 130 points.  Even a unit of 20 is good, sure not all will attack but with a soulrender near them they will stick around for a long time and even against 2 wound models will generally win the fight they're in.

I have countless times sent Thralls into things worth far higher points.  I've had units of 10 pretty regularly take down terrorgheists and other big monsters, you need to pick your targets(kind of the theme of the army) and they will perform very well when you do.

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6 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

Thats maaaaaybe true for Reavers, Thralls are pretty damn good for 130 points.  Even a unit of 20 is good, sure not all will attack but with a soulrender near them they will stick around for a long time and even against 2 wound models will generally win the fight they're in.

I have countless times sent Thralls into things worth far higher points.  I've had units of 10 pretty regularly take down terrorgheists and other big monsters, you need to pick your targets(kind of the theme of the army) and they will perform very well when you do.

I’m not the best at the tight placement and activation choices needed to maximise my Thralls so run them in a big pack to add to survivability.   I find Reavers more forgiving as they do their damage outside of combat (I.e. the enemy doesn’t hit back!) whilst Thralls take one hit from anything and die.   A skilled pilot can crush with Thralls but I am not the most skilled pilot!

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Most people underestimate Thralls which helps.  I tend to just use Reavers as screens, they do okay damage if you can shoot and melee with them but they die just as easy as Thralls with less damage output generally.

I really need to get some Eternal Guard then I doubt I will take Reavers at all.

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1 hour ago, Drofnum said:

Thats maaaaaybe true for Reavers, Thralls are pretty damn good for 130 points.  Even a unit of 20 is good, sure not all will attack but with a soulrender near them they will stick around for a long time and even against 2 wound models will generally win the fight they're in.

I have countless times sent Thralls into things worth far higher points.  I've had units of 10 pretty regularly take down terrorgheists and other big monsters, you need to pick your targets(kind of the theme of the army) and they will perform very well when you do.

What are they fighting that they should beat, that should be in a competitive list?

You had good rolls, doesn’t mean it’s a good unit.   You killed an over costed thing that shouldn’t show up in competitive list, again not a good unit.

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21 minutes ago, Nerdkingdan said:

What are they fighting that they should beat, that should be in a competitive list?

You had good rolls, doesn’t mean it’s a good unit.   You killed an over costed thing that shouldn’t show up in competitive list, again not a good unit.

Terrorgheists shouldnt show up in competitive lists?  What FEC lists are you fighting?  lol

I'm sorry your experience has been poor but maybe you just arent using them correctly?  Just about the only thing i've put them against that they have struggled with are Fyreslayers(Vulkites, hearthguard obviously kill them) and that ended up being a stalemate essentially. I've used them against Plague Monks and they killed more than they lost in the 3 times i've played Skaven, kill terrorghiests like I said with or without ghoul kings, ethereal VLOZD when it was a popular thing, countless bloodthirsters, dragonlords, witch aelves in equalish numbers, Keeper of Secrets. 

The list could go on and these are not one off events where i'm getting lucky, these are consistent results. Running Dhom Hain(reroll 1's to hit on the charge) a unit of 10 Thralls will do 14.5 damage to a 4+ save on average vs Monsters/4+ wound models. Its a bit lower if you're going up against 1 wound models, around 10.3 damage vs 4+ or 12.9 vs 5+.  So again on average 10 Thralls will kill the monster they attack and on average they will wipe a same sized unit. If the unit you're attacking has a DPR then you will usually need a bit of help, but that doesnt make Thralls a poor unit it just means you picked the wrong target.

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22 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

Terrorgheists shouldnt show up in competitive lists?  What FEC lists are you fighting?  lol

I'm sorry your experience has been poor but maybe you just arent using them correctly?  Just about the only thing i've put them against that they have struggled with are Fyreslayers(Vulkites, hearthguard obviously kill them) and that ended up being a stalemate essentially. I've used them against Plague Monks and they killed more than they lost in the 3 times i've played Skaven, kill terrorghiests like I said with or without ghoul kings, ethereal VLOZD when it was a popular thing, countless bloodthirsters, dragonlords, witch aelves in equalish numbers, Keeper of Secrets. 

The list could go on and these are not one off events where i'm getting lucky, these are consistent results. Running Dhom Hain(reroll 1's to hit on the charge) a unit of 10 Thralls will do 14.5 damage to a 4+ save on average vs Monsters/4+ wound models. Its a bit lower if you're going up against 1 wound models, around 10.3 damage vs 4+ or 12.9 vs 5+.  So again on average 10 Thralls will kill the monster they attack and on average they will wipe a same sized unit. If the unit you're attacking has a DPR then you will usually need a bit of help, but that doesnt make Thralls a poor unit it just means you picked the wrong target.

I fight daughters, goblins, fireslayers, and stormcast, most.

How are they outperforming plague monks?

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Just now, Nerdkingdan said:

I fight daughters, goblins, fireslayers, and stormcast, most.

How are they outperforming plague monks?

They suck against Stormcast.   But then so do most against a 3+ rerollable Sequitor save that heals on 6s...

i imagine they absolutely annihilate gobbos. 

They’re also decent in mirror matches  against Morrsarr (assuming Morrsarr shock something else).  

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1 hour ago, Nerdkingdan said:

I fight daughters, goblins, fireslayers, and stormcast, most.

How are they outperforming plague monks?

I mean, of those 4 lists 2 of them are made up almost entirely by 2-3 wound models which is literally Thrall kryptonite, and 1 is one of the most OP/durable armies in the game.  Thralls should be getting you a lot of use only against goblins of those 4 matchups, as long as you avoid getting them stuck into the 2 wound squig like units, they are going to do LOTS of damage there (last time I played against gloomspite a sandwiched a unit of 60 between a thrall unit and morrsarr, and the results were quite entertaining).  So yeah I can see why you don't like them, as 3/4 of your games are pretty damn terrible matchups for them.  

The key for thralls is picking your spot, because you are only going to get the 1 chance.  There are plenty of games (like a lot of yours I would think) where you are going to be leaving them in your backfield to hold/guard objectives or act as overpriced screener, but I haven't found that to be a problem, you need bodies on the field to project board control, and while reavers are marginally better at that roll, just because they have the shooting, they also aren't going to surprise anyone in combat who forgets to bring the hammer to knock out one of your objective, like thralls can.  But then there are going to be games where your thralls do crazy heavy lifting (like killing gheists etc) where you would be lost without them, which more then makes up for the reavers slightly stronger role in board control. 

At the end of the day I think they provide a list much more versatility then strait eel spam.  There are matchups where you will wish you had them if you had only taken eels, and even when they aren't great, they are good enough not to be a liability as long as you don't expect wonders out of them, and play them  conservatively as a result.  I don't think there are a lot of use cases for ever taking more then a min-battle line worth of thralls in competitive builds, but I think they are quite nice, and taking 3 units of 10 in conjunction with 2 units of eternal guard and all of a sudden your eel spam has some bodies behind it for a fairly reasonable price allowing you to still take several big blocks of eels if you wish (and allows you to ASF turn 2 as a very big added bonus).

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7 hours ago, Nerdkingdan said:

Not sure it’s interesting, but 130 points is still way too many points for thralls and reavers.   It has nothing to do with the eels being better, it’s more like eels work and the Namarti don’t.

Base too big, attack’s too low, no bravery mechanics to keep them on the table without command points, 2 wound models are everywhere and base save too low.  

Reavers with shots, 8 move are more reliable than the thralls in terms of having some impact, still poor performers

I can not send Namarti into anything of roughly equal points and expect them to win or live even one combat phase.

Annoyed I bought so many, when really they are just a tax for tide flip.

 

#alternativefacts 

not liking thralls and reavers is fine but saying there are no leadership mechanics apart CP is just flat untrue. 

Command trait

Aspect Sea 

Lotaan

Last Lament

in other words there’s options in command trait cheap character, expensive character and artifact to help with morale.

 

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16 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

#alternativefacts 

not liking thralls and reavers is fine but saying there are no leadership mechanics apart CP is just flat untrue. 

Command trait

Aspect Sea 

Lotaan

Last Lament

in other words there’s options in command trait cheap character, expensive character and artifact to help with morale.

 

I mean the blanket immunity to battle shock, many other units seem to have, is hardly a comparison for +bravery while completely within.     Last Lament, is 1 turn, and I have had some luck with it.   Completely within is the issue for most of these, for example +3 for completely within 9 of the sea is good but maintaining it sometimes means not getting optimal placement of a model that is more than 400 points.   Large units of these guys have a very big foot print, lotann not having flight when the units charge and pile in, often losses his 12 inch. 

Compared to units that just blanket get it without proximity to the hero, like the Hag.     I run these guys in every list, cause I like the models, and tide flip, and the bodies, I just feel they are still a bit expensive when a unit with 25MM bases 2 inch reach and better attacks per model cost less in a lot of factions.

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30 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

I mean, of those 4 lists 2 of them are made up almost entirely by 2-3 wound models which is literally Thrall kryptonite, and 1 is one of the most OP/durable armies in the game.  Thralls should be getting you a lot of use only against goblins of those 4 matchups, as long as you avoid getting them stuck into the 2 wound squig like units, they are going to do LOTS of damage there (last time I played against gloomspite a sandwiched a unit of 60 between a thrall unit and morrsarr, and the results were quite entertaining).  So yeah I can see why you don't like them, as 3/4 of your games are pretty damn terrible matchups for them.  

The key for thralls is picking your spot, because you are only going to get the 1 chance.  There are plenty of games (like a lot of yours I would think) where you are going to be leaving them in your backfield to hold/guard objectives or act as overpriced screener, but I haven't found that to be a problem, you need bodies on the field to project board control, and while reavers are marginally better at that roll, just because they have the shooting, they also aren't going to surprise anyone in combat who forgets to bring the hammer to knock out one of your objective, like thralls can.  But then there are going to be games where your thralls do crazy heavy lifting (like killing gheists etc) where you would be lost without them, which more then makes up for the reavers slightly stronger role in board control. 

At the end of the day I think they provide a list much more versatility then strait eel spam.  There are matchups where you will wish you had them if you had only taken eels, and even when they aren't great, they are good enough not to be a liability as long as you don't expect wonders out of them, and play them  conservatively as a result.  I don't think there are a lot of use cases for ever taking more then a min-battle line worth of thralls in competitive builds, but I think they are quite nice, and taking 3 units of 10 in conjunction with 2 units of eternal guard and all of a sudden your eel spam has some bodies behind it for a fairly reasonable price allowing you to still take several big blocks of eels if you wish (and allows you to ASF turn 2 as a very big added bonus).

So if my primary opponents, are Thrall Kryptonite, I can forget running a majority namarti army?    

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You probably just need to realize that you are going up against the worst possible opponents.  I dont think its an auto loss by any stretch, but you probably want to consider bringing other options when your opponents are directly countering your main threat.

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30 minutes ago, Nerdkingdan said:

So if my primary opponents, are Thrall Kryptonite, I can forget running a majority namarti army?    

I mean it really all depends on a number of factors.  How competitive are they playing being the main one?  The other big one being, are you guys list building specifically to scenario and opponent, or taking all comers lists?  If its the deathstar Fyreslayer build, tourney DoK, and SCE melee alpha, yeah youre namarti list is probably going to lose a high number of those games.  But if Fyreslayers aren't taking that 1 build (I'm honestly not sure I even know what a non-deathstar fyreslayer list looks like haha), and SCE plays balanced, and DoK takes some of their less optimal stuff, you probably are fine I'd think.  Unless lists are competitive, in general I have also found that a single unit of 9 morrsarr affords you the ability to pretty much take whatever you want, within reason, for the other 1500pts and still be able to compete.  So yeah if your friends are competitive gamers, at 2k points you probably need min 15-18 eels with at least 9 of them morrsarr (i think rule of thumb is 9 per 1k in my mind), but otherwise I wouldn't think a namarti heavy list is destined to failure before dice are even rolled, it just might be more of a finesse win, with a lot of close calls when you do win.

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10 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

I mean it really all depends on a number of factors.  How competitive are they playing being the main one?  The other big one being, are you guys list building specifically to scenario and opponent, or taking all comers lists?  If its the deathstar Fyreslayer build, tourney DoK, and SCE melee alpha, yeah youre namarti list is probably going to lose a high number of those games.  But if Fyreslayers aren't taking that 1 build (I'm honestly not sure I even know what a non-deathstar fyreslayer list looks like haha), and SCE plays balanced, and DoK takes some of their less optimal stuff, you probably are fine I'd think.  Unless lists are competitive, in general I have also found that a single unit of 9 morrsarr affords you the ability to pretty much take whatever you want, within reason, for the other 1500pts and still be able to compete.  So yeah if your friends are competitive gamers, at 2k points you probably need min 15-18 eels with at least 9 of them morrsarr (i think rule of thumb is 9 per 1k in my mind), but otherwise I wouldn't think a namarti heavy list is destined to failure before dice are even rolled, it just might be more of a finesse win, with a lot of close calls when you do win.

they seem to be running mostly competitive, not full optimal but usually close.   As in the majority of points are the competitive lists, usually with something sub optimal.

I've been running 9 eels per 1k, actually, and I'm doing very well, but the thralls do nothing but speed bump, vrs what I face.

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Curious how people are faring against newer battletomes (meta lists) nowadays. My last couple games with Deepkin have been a struggle (still come out with a win, but extremely close games). 

(Pre- GHB 2019), I was running a 2k list with:

Volturnos (General)

Soulrenderer

Tidecaster

2 x 9 morsarr eels

2 x 10 namarti

2x3 ishlaenn eels 

 

Game 1 was against Fyreslayers, which included 1 magmadroth, one runefather, and 3 other support heroes

2x10 vulkite berzerkers

1x30 hearthguard berzerkers

1x5 auric hearthguard

 

Mission was starfall. Turn 1 was mostly just movement, with me taking turn 2 and charging into his magmadroth and runefather (he positioned poorly behind the hearthguard blob). Even though I killed both, there was still a runesmiter or battlesmith nearby, so the hearthguard pretty much decimated the 9 eels in one turn (rr hits into MW is disgusting, especially with 2x melee and 2" reach). 

Along the outer edges of the battle, my namarti killed 2 vulkites while the vulkites killed all the thralls in one turn, while my second group of eels killed off 10 vulkites (not before losing 3 from the death/counterattack + regular attacks beforehand).  

I ended up winning mostly with the ishlaenn and remaining thralls holding objectives which landed far from the hearthguard blob. In the end, my 2nd group of morsarr only killed off 4~5 hearthguards on the charge before perishing (Even having only one hero remaining makes the hearthguards impossible to deal with). 

I think that was one of the more frustrating matches I've faced so far due to the strength of the hearthguards. The support heroes weren't all that easy to kill off either by being near an auric hearthguard unit, and I had to use up most of my alpha charge to barely kill them off. 

 

Other match was against a typical DOK lineup. 

My eels were able to charge into morathi, hag queen, and witch aelves turn 1 (poor positioning on his part, and luckily his prayers all failed), and killed off the hag queen, dealt 3 dmg to morathi, and killed off quite a few witch aelves. 

Turn 2 my other 9 eels killed off a second hag queen, and started to slog against witch aelves. I was able to kill off a good portion of his army, Despite getting an early advantage, witch aelves were still more point efficient, and I ended up losing more units than DOK did on Turn 2. By Turn 3, my volturnos didn't really have any good targets to buff (besides himself). 

 

Running a Volturnos as general list seemed to perform decently, but despite early advantages from pulling off great alphas (at least I thought so), it still feels like an uphill battle. My unit of 9 eels were able to take out key enemy support heroes as well as do decent damage to troops on the charge, but were rarely able to survive 2 rounds of combat for me to retreat them. I've found most of my fights to be over by turn 3 partly because of this, so didn't really have enough surviving units to make too much use of High tide. I'm sure I could have played better strategically and would have probably fared better using tidecaster as general, but overall IDK felt like they didn't pack too great of a punch. (I'm mostly comparing their output to enlightened on discs and evocators, who felt like they had better point efficiency) 

Thoughts? 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Fisren said:

Curious how people are faring against newer battletomes (meta lists) nowadays. My last couple games with Deepkin have been a struggle (still come out with a win, but extremely close games). 

(Pre- GHB 2019), I was running a 2k list with:

Volturnos (General)

Soulrenderer

Tidecaster

2 x 9 morsarr eels

2 x 10 namarti

2x3 ishlaenn eels 

 

Game 1 was against Fyreslayers, which included 1 magmadroth, one runefather, and 3 other support heroes

2x10 vulkite berzerkers

1x30 hearthguard berzerkers

1x5 auric hearthguard

 

Mission was starfall. Turn 1 was mostly just movement, with me taking turn 2 and charging into his magmadroth and runefather (he positioned poorly behind the hearthguard blob). Even though I killed both, there was still a runesmiter or battlesmith nearby, so the hearthguard pretty much decimated the 9 eels in one turn (rr hits into MW is disgusting, especially with 2x melee and 2" reach). 

Along the outer edges of the battle, my namarti killed 2 vulkites while the vulkites killed all the thralls in one turn, while my second group of eels killed off 10 vulkites (not before losing 3 from the death/counterattack + regular attacks beforehand).  

I ended up winning mostly with the ishlaenn and remaining thralls holding objectives which landed far from the hearthguard blob. In the end, my 2nd group of morsarr only killed off 4~5 hearthguards on the charge before perishing (Even having only one hero remaining makes the hearthguards impossible to deal with). 

I think that was one of the more frustrating matches I've faced so far due to the strength of the hearthguards. The support heroes weren't all that easy to kill off either by being near an auric hearthguard unit, and I had to use up most of my alpha charge to barely kill them off. 

 

Other match was against a typical DOK lineup. 

My eels were able to charge into morathi, hag queen, and witch aelves turn 1 (poor positioning on his part, and luckily his prayers all failed), and killed off the hag queen, dealt 3 dmg to morathi, and killed off quite a few witch aelves. 

Turn 2 my other 9 eels killed off a second hag queen, and started to slog against witch aelves. I was able to kill off a good portion of his army, Despite getting an early advantage, witch aelves were still more point efficient, and I ended up losing more units than DOK did on Turn 2. By Turn 3, my volturnos didn't really have any good targets to buff (besides himself). 

 

Running a Volturnos as general list seemed to perform decently, but despite early advantages from pulling off great alphas (at least I thought so), it still feels like an uphill battle. My unit of 9 eels were able to take out key enemy support heroes as well as do decent damage to troops on the charge, but were rarely able to survive 2 rounds of combat for me to retreat them. I've found most of my fights to be over by turn 3 partly because of this, so didn't really have enough surviving units to make too much use of High tide. I'm sure I could have played better strategically and would have probably fared better using tidecaster as general, but overall IDK felt like they didn't pack too great of a punch. (I'm mostly comparing their output to enlightened on discs and evocators, who felt like they had better point efficiency) 

Thoughts? 

 

 

 

have you ever used the new re-rolling save roles of one command trait? it's not a lot but it could be helpful?

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54 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

have you ever used the new re-rolling save roles of one command trait? it's not a lot but it could be helpful?

Haven't had too much time to play using the new rules yet, but I find myself using most of my command points for inspiring presence since typically I lose at least 3~4 eels in a turn and try to avoid losing more. I have considered splitting eels into 1x12 and 1x6 for more staying power with a larger group, but I tend to find even a group of 12 eels don't have enough staying/killing power to deal with a large /elite horde or horde + support hero without charging, retreating, then charging again over 3 turns. 

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11 hours ago, tripchimeras said:

I mean it really all depends on a number of factors.  How competitive are they playing being the main one?  The other big one being, are you guys list building specifically to scenario and opponent, or taking all comers lists?  If its the deathstar Fyreslayer build, tourney DoK, and SCE melee alpha, yeah youre namarti list is probably going to lose a high number of those games.  But if Fyreslayers aren't taking that 1 build (I'm honestly not sure I even know what a non-deathstar fyreslayer list looks like haha), and SCE plays balanced, and DoK takes some of their less optimal stuff, you probably are fine I'd think.  Unless lists are competitive, in general I have also found that a single unit of 9 morrsarr affords you the ability to pretty much take whatever you want, within reason, for the other 1500pts and still be able to compete.  So yeah if your friends are competitive gamers, at 2k points you probably need min 15-18 eels with at least 9 of them morrsarr (i think rule of thumb is 9 per 1k in my mind), but otherwise I wouldn't think a namarti heavy list is destined to failure before dice are even rolled, it just might be more of a finesse win, with a lot of close calls when you do win.

SO I would really like to get more out of the thralls, than I am, and I'm willing to keep trying on it.  

So questions, are you saying thralls should be 20 models, not 10?   Am I required to run Mor'phann in this plan?   I am pretty sure the 10 man reavers are better than the 10 man thralls in a lot of situations, especially against some of the large blob units with no save.   10 man reavers with the extra speed and run reroll are doing a fair job of speed bumps for my eels, but looking for what I might be missing outside of my usual opponents having lists where thralls are sub optimal, I should still get more out of them I think.

 

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