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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

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Do to the point changes i'm running 1x6 and 1x9, i was running 1x6 and 2x6 with 2 Souscryers but that isnt possible anymore.

The 1x9 works better IMO now with the new CP's in the Generals HB. Just make sure the general with within 12"

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I dont think that actually changes anything.  The rules for the ship are below, I dont believe Allies gain the Idoneth Deepkin keyword so they still would not be affected.

 

Roll a dice each time a wound or mortal wound is allocated to an Idoneth Deepkin unit wholly within 6" of this terrain feature. On a 6+ the wound is negated.

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3 hours ago, thediceabide said:

Eel lists are boring, how are people running Namarti lists these days? :)

I don't think they are, I went looking around for this a few weeks back, thinking with lower Namarti points it would opened something up.   10 points less for each unit, adds up to one extra 10 man block in a namarti list, at a max, which isn't enough to make up for how bad they are.    I keep hearing how great these guys would be in another faction, but we don't use them because we got eels.   My experience is, that its not the existence of eels, but the lack of tools to make them work that is the core problem.   The kings buff doesn't work on them, the other ones are often 9" or 12" wholly within, which just doesn't work, and they really don't put out enough attacks, have bravery and save issues.   Units with this base size and damage output have other tools at their disposal, or people just don't use them.

The only suggestion I was given when I asked around was to stack Lotann and an aspect of the seas buffs to get a thrall unit to some reasonable damage output,   But that suggestion was bad, really bad, terrible in fact.   The thralls only can get a small number of their models in combat at a time, because of scenery, speed etc, other factions have better tools to ramp up, or units that perform better with a smaller foot print, and your spending around 500 points to get what works out to be a few wounds at best, not to mention your 500 points is stuck sitting behind this thrall unit.   They thralls are especially bad on 2-4 wound enemies.   There just isn't away around the flawed warscroll of the soul render, lotann, and the high points cost of the Edilon.  

You can however run a mixed army well, using a small number of thralls 40 or so, with a single soul render in the battalion, on a tide flip army works very will WITH the eels.   I have been running that, and it does work, but only really as a reduction of my units for determining who is first, the thralls and reavers mostly die, and inflict little or no damage, but they work as speed bumps, for the eels to do their thing.    If you want the Thralls to do anything they have to go first, which means you can't have a lot of units.   The poor bravery and save means you have to be in small units, or they can't fit inside any of the buffs we have, and the low bravery and save means larger units vanish too quickly for the cost when the fight starts.

The best list I tested was to use the Enclave that allows the namarti limited flight, which let me abuse cover, and get more models in by "flying" over obstacles.   I used the ritual to remove their cover save or flight, and tried to steer combat on scenery itself, limiting their move and maximizing my damage.   It was better, I wouldn't say good.

 

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Posted (edited)

A Namarti Corps with Eels isnt bad tho, now that the battalions units are 50pts cheaper, but it is still 700pts and many will say 3 units of Eels are better, but I actually like using it a lot. And they are bad vs 2-3 wounds not 2-4 wounds its "4 or more".

Why i like it is, +1 relic, +1CP, and bodies, with some range, even tho its only 40 shots, 40 shots are very important sometimes, there are many heroes in odd spots that are 3-5 wounds and 5+/6+, also Reavers are fast, and its all 1 drop.

Edited by Maddpainting
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57 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

A Namarti Corps with Eels isnt bad tho, now that the battalions units are 50pts cheaper, but it is still 700pts and many will say 3 units of Eels are better, but I actually like using it a lot. And they are bad vs 2-3 wounds not 2-4 wounds its "4 or more".

Why i like it is, +1 relic, +1CP, and bodies, with some range, even tho its only 40 shots, 40 shots are very important sometimes, there are many heroes in odd spots that are 3-5 wounds and 5+/6+, also Reavers are fast, and its all 1 drop.

Yep, 2-3....  :)   For some reason I thought it was 2-4, I did short myself at least once then, I know I did....     Oh well....   most of my frustrations with Namarti are base size to attacks, which is still the core issue.   I do however play the Namariti core in almost every single game, (save the 1k ones)  I do like them for the single drop.   Most of the time my thralls get ganked, but hey something has to screen.   I consistently get more out of reavers.






 

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Yeah, my Reavers seems to always do well, the Thralls are there as a threat, but i also play BoC, and Bestigors are just better in everyway it feels (they have the same problem 32mm with 1" range) Bestigors are 2 attack, 4+/3+ (+1 to hit vs units of 10 or more) and can get +1 attack on the charge, they are 4+ save and 12 points, they move 6+1+run and +3 if near a shaman and can run and charge, with a +1 pile in Rend -1. So for 12points with a 11-17" movement and the ability to stack + attacks like the King can, IDK why Thralls are still 13pts each. A 30man Bestigor can get re-roll 1's to hit, wound, saves, and +1 attack per CP, i have done turn 1 multi charge with 30 5 attacks each, 3+/3+ re-roll all 1's, killing 40 Dark coven Executioners in a tournament (Adepticon). I understand Thralls can not be shot at if other units are in front, but that is "army rules" and if all army rules are equal (BoC has summoning) then the units should be priced accordingly. Remember thralls are only 5+ save normally. I have sat Bestigors in cover for 3+ with re-roll 1's on objectives. For 120points it was well worth it.

Not that i dont like Thralls i still play with 20 of them every game, but i wont play 40+ like i do with Bestigors. 

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40 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Yeah, my Reavers seems to always do well, the Thralls are there as a threat, but i also play BoC, and Bestigors are just better in everyway it feels (they have the same problem 32mm with 1" range) Bestigors are 2 attack, 4+/3+ (+1 to hit vs units of 10 or more) and can get +1 attack on the charge, they are 4+ save and 12 points, they move 6+1+run and +3 if near a shaman and can run and charge, with a +1 pile in Rend -1. So for 12points with a 11-17" movement and the ability to stack + attacks like the King can, IDK why Thralls are still 13pts each. A 30man Bestigor can get re-roll 1's to hit, wound, saves, and +1 attack per CP, i have done turn 1 multi charge with 30 5 attacks each, 3+/3+ re-roll all 1's, killing 40 Dark coven Executioners in a tournament (Adepticon). I understand Thralls can not be shot at if other units are in front, but that is "army rules" and if all army rules are equal (BoC has summoning) then the units should be priced accordingly. Remember thralls are only 5+ save normally. I have sat Bestigors in cover for 3+ with re-roll 1's on objectives. For 120points it was well worth it.

Not that i dont like Thralls i still play with 20 of them every game, but i wont play 40+ like i do with Bestigors. 

The only thing I can think of is that GW over values the soul renders ability to return models, probably in part because the ranged mechanic limits armies ability to shot him out.    However regardless of the soul renders survivablity, it just doesn't work in practice due to the wholly within requirement, and the poor Bravery.   If the soul render got a rework, so that the unit would still be around to get those returned models or it worked in a more reliable way, the points would make sense.

I do really want to run a thrall army, I just can't see a path to it, save playing against some friends whose armies and tactical choices are super casual.

As a side note, I only have 2 reavers units, and recently purchased 2 more to start experimenting with more, butI wonder if someone has tried just Reaver spam?

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5 hours ago, Nerdkingdan said:

Oh well....   most of my frustrations with Namarti are base size to attacks, which is still the core issue.   I do however play the Namariti core in almost every single game, (save the 1k ones)  I do like them for the single drop.   Most of the time my thralls get ganked, but hey something has to screen.   I consistently get more out of reavers.

You hit the right spot with the remark on Namarto bases. If they were on 25mm bases they would have worked fine, but as it stands they can only be used in units of 10 and even then they can't perfrom all that well.

Regarding Reavers I think they need to be even more cheap to make them count. At 110 pts I would see them be good cost efficient unit. And thei range is also problematic. If it was 10/20 instead of 9/18 you could see them used with Sourscryers to flank shoot and charge which would be great since they are scouts afterall..

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Think thralls are pretty great as 10 man support units.  They are pretty terrible as the core of your army.  I always take 3 of them as my battleline, and always find them a great investment and not a battleline tax for fliptide.  Defeated a horde gloomspite army largely on the backs of Thralls just tearing through things.  Lost all of them, but they ended up being the difference.  That being said can't imagine including more, I'd probably take more reavers after that if really wanted more foot.  Too vulnerable to work as the backbone of a list, and as others have mentioned too unwieldy in units of 20+.  Reducing base size to 25mm would work best, but as I don't see that happening I think extending range of their blades to 2" would do the trick almost as well.  While you are still going to struggle with buff ranges, reliably being able to get all 20 in to attack would be a strong enough incentive for me to at least consider taking 1 20 block.  I think with their damage potential though they are still amazing support units/screaners.  Screens in AoS are so freaking important, that even as pricy as they are being too expensive  to effectively do it, I end up needing them to screen against alpha strikes/flyers from my opponent until I can get my eels in correct position if I'm not deep striking them myself.

Soulrender ability also shouldn't be wholly within imo, should just be within, its just not good enough as is even at 80pts.  Alternatively if they could use their ability before battleshock, instead of after, OR they could use it after every battleshock phase, not just friendly they would become potentially decent.  In fact the very first game I used them in, I mistakenly thought I COULD do it after every battleshock phase and did not find it to be remotely overpowered.  My opponent was (turns out rightfully) incredulous initially, but they still melted away far faster then I could resurrect them even taking morr'phan, it really was only any good at preventing losing units to shooting and magic, the second they entered combat they melted away with or without the soulrender (though after doing significant damage themselves) and I lost handily, granted it was like my second game of AoS ever.

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Posted (edited)

Anyone have any thoughts on how to beat Legion of Grief?   Near every other faction I have played I can beat but Legion of Grief is a nightmare.  All heroes bubble wrapped in hordes that my eels cannot pop through.  A teleporting general bringing whole units out of gravesites (which with our low body count I cannot screen all of).   Bravery debuffs that make huge numbers of eels flee.  Anyone had any consistent success and able to share?

Edited by Aelven supremacy

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5 hours ago, Aelven supremacy said:

Anyone have any thoughts on how to beat Legion of Grief?   Near every other faction I have played I can beat but Legion of Grief is a nightmare.  All heroes bubble wrapped in hordes that my eels cannot pop through.  A teleporting general bringing whole units out of gravesites (which with our low body count I cannot screen all of).   Bravery debuffs that make huge numbers of eels flee.  Anyone had any consistent success and able to share?

Don't feel compelled to charge, sometimes its better to just Move+Run over his lines and land in his backfield. I think we might be heading to a meta where ishlaen provide a little more utility than straight morrsarr.

Also consider malevolent maelstrom for extra unbinds.

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10 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

I think we might be heading to a meta where ishlaen provide a little more utility than straight morrsarr.

My main friend who plays Idoneth just tilted his list that way, to throw another log on this fire. You can also run them in different sizes. Morr's really want 9, though 6 is sometimes workable. You can run Ishlaen Guard at 3-6 and they work.

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Posted (edited)

Morrsarr damage on that charge is basically double damage over Ishlaen tho, not counting the 1 turn of MW's. but i like them both for different reasons, having a 3+ ethereal (easily 3+ that is) with re-roll 1's to saves is very strong road block, only weak to MW's. 

Add to that tho, with Namarti getting cheaper, and Ishlaen also are cheaper in general, you might be able to make the damage up with more bodies to equal the damage and having more wounds over all. Tho i will keep doing what i was doing, 1 strong Morrsarr unit to take out major threats and a unit of 6 Ishlaen for a tank.

Edited by Maddpainting

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Taking ishlaen also has the benefit of not making your plans so transparent. In tournament level gaming I'm fairly certain a shooting meta is quietly being constructed in the background. The meta of overwhelming combat is definitely filtering the factions who do dmg in combat (HoS, FEC) and those that need a more wholistic range of dmg abilities. I'm not sure IDK fit in the the HoS and FEC bracket.

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I agree with a lot of the comments above that there is really only 1 way to use morrsarr, and that one way really requires 9 of them per unit (though 6 isn't terrible).  Ishlaen have been doing amazing for me in units of 3, they can road block most anything that doesn't do a lot of mortals, and provide a lot of support utility, and given the cheapness of the min unit there is really nothing wrong just plopping them on a backfield objective for a while if they don't have anything else to do.   Undecided whether I want to go 3X3 Ishlaen or 1X3 and 1X6, either way I'm excited with how well they have been doing for me, and that they present an alternative to pure morrsarr spam.  I think if you want to go competitive at all you still really want at least 1 unit of 9 morrsarr, but now for my fliptide list I am toying with only using 1 unit of 9 instead of 2, and replacing the second with Ishlaen, which gives me the extra points to put something fun in my army I might not normally include, without completely killing the competitive ability of the list.  The pure offensive power is definitely much lower without the second unit of 9 morrsarr, but I think the versatility goes up quite a bit, whether that actually is enough to compensate I don't know, but it definitely makes it more fun!

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Has anyone taken a look at the Alliance of Wood and Sea Battalion since the new Sylvaneth tome is coming out soon?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, smartalek said:

Has anyone taken a look at the Alliance of Wood and Sea Battalion since the new Sylvaneth tome is coming out soon?

Yes, and Alliance of Wood and sea has two issues, and a question.

First, Your Sylvaneth are not the best near the boats, and your deepkin are not the best near the woods.   The second issue is that new battle tomes seem to be doing away with these mixed faction battalions, so the entire thing is likely to be gone as soon as deepkin sees an update, though that could be a ways away, or could be soon.

The question is I'm unclear if the sylvaneth gain the Enclave ability?    For example a unit of Dryaids and the Treelord ancient having a weak flight ability or certain rerolls could be good, but I am unsure how it works, so I have not looked too deeply into it till I am sure of the answer.

With that said I believe the way to make this good is to make it into a single drop battalion with tide flip losing your artifact bonus I believe, or possible a 2-3 drop battalion to add a soul scryer and get something out of the extra artifact.    The battalion could be for lack of a better term, mid-tier competitive, likely good enough for small stuff, and fun, but not top tier competition.     The idea would be a tide flip , go second, run charge turn one,  Go first in combat turn 2, and maybe score a double turn.    You have a good amount of bodies to tie up things, while the eels fly around and take things out.   The tree lords stomp ability could be great to get more out of the thralls for example, but again it would be hard to work with the issues of your placed boat and woods.   Ultimately this kind of list would be better set up up with just deepkin, but its workable if your wanting the variety.   I for one do, and am working on building it up, but I want to do sylvaneth too.

You end up with 1 unit of nine Morrsarr,  the soulscryer and the full battalion with the other eel unit as Ishlean, lot of units, lot of bodies, and turn two first in combat phase, the big eel unit picking its fights or flanking with soul scryer.  
 

Edited by Nerdkingdan
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3 hours ago, Nerdkingdan said:

The second issue is that new battle tomes seem to be doing away with these mixed faction battalions, so the entire thing is likely to be gone as soon as deepkin sees an update, though that could be a ways away, or could be soon.
 

Rumor holds there is only one more order book coming out this year, and given free peoples don't have a book, the new Aelves are rumored, and Kharadron are horribly in need of an update (plus Idoneth just got updated in GHB19), I feel pretty good about it having some staying power.

Every single other issue that you bring up is correct, and I agree, however, so... if someone wants to do it, I think you get to play it for a while and can feel good about that, assuming it works with the new Sylvaneth as well. Downside: it may eventually go away and it's not super competitive.

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8 hours ago, Nerdkingdan said:

With that said I believe the way to make this good is to make it into a single drop battalion with tide flip losing your artifact bonus I believe, or possible a 2-3 drop battalion to add a soul scryer and get something out of the extra artifact.    The battalion could be for lack of a better term, mid-tier competitive, likely good enough for small stuff, and fun, but not top tier competition.     The idea would be a tide flip , go second, run charge turn one,  Go first in combat turn 2, and maybe score a double turn.
 

This 3 drop list is currently what I was thinking of:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Lord of Storm and Sea 
- Artefact: Augury Shells 
- Lore of the Deeps: Abyssal Darkness
Isharann Soulrender (80)
- Artefact: Lliandra's Last Lament 
Branchwych (80)
Treelord Ancient (300)
Branchwraith (80)
- Allies
20 x Namarti Thralls (260)
10 x Namarti Reavers (130)
10 x Dryads (100)
10 x Dryads (100)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (120)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (340)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (170)
Alliance of Wood and Sea (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

Let's me flip the tides and strike fast, but also the Branchwraith to summon more dryads and tie up one section of the board. I figured the Soulrender would give some resilience to the Namarti, especially with the artefact.

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5 hours ago, smartalek said:

This 3 drop list is currently what I was thinking of:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Lord of Storm and Sea 
- Artefact: Augury Shells 
- Lore of the Deeps: Abyssal Darkness
Isharann Soulrender (80)
- Artefact: Lliandra's Last Lament 
Branchwych (80)
Treelord Ancient (300)
Branchwraith (80)
- Allies
20 x Namarti Thralls (260)
10 x Namarti Reavers (130)
10 x Dryads (100)
10 x Dryads (100)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (120)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (340)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (170)
Alliance of Wood and Sea (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

Let's me flip the tides and strike fast, but also the Branchwraith to summon more dryads and tie up one section of the board. I figured the Soulrender would give some resilience to the Namarti, especially with the artefact.

That looks like a fun list, let us know if you play it!

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6 hours ago, smartalek said:

This 3 drop list is currently what I was thinking of:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Lord of Storm and Sea 
- Artefact: Augury Shells 
- Lore of the Deeps: Abyssal Darkness
Isharann Soulrender (80)
- Artefact: Lliandra's Last Lament 
Branchwych (80)
Treelord Ancient (300)
Branchwraith (80)
- Allies
20 x Namarti Thralls (260)
10 x Namarti Reavers (130)
10 x Dryads (100)
10 x Dryads (100)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (120)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (340)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (170)
Alliance of Wood and Sea (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

Let's me flip the tides and strike fast, but also the Branchwraith to summon more dryads and tie up one section of the board. I figured the Soulrender would give some resilience to the Namarti, especially with the artefact.

I think you want the soul Scyrer, consider the benefit of taking away cover or flight with a ritual with all that extra terrain.  You can try without him of course but he is a priest for the extra plus 1.    The extra summon is interesting though.

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We had a question about forgotten nightmares. Some gunners were 4 inches away from a Leviadon and the gunners were stretched out 15 inches away. The furthest gunners were 6 inches from Thralls. 

The question is do the gunners have to split their attacks or can they all shoot the Leviadon because he is the closest Deepkin unit to the unit of gunners? 

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