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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

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On 4/12/2019 at 9:52 AM, Tizianolol said:

@Carrion King what do you think about my list? It’s similar to yours ( blood and glory event).

realm:ulgu

tidecaster 100

-general

-born from agony

-steed of tides

soulscryer 100

soulrender 100

Aspect of the storm 400

-doppelganger cloak

2 x10 reavers

20 thralls

2x6 morrsarr

fuethan

tot 2000

im thinking to play reavers to defend points. 20 thralls with scyer and render placed into the see. With them I can attack behind opponent army. Morrsarr and aots can try to run and charge turn 1 and try to destroy opponent front line.

what do you think about it?:)

 

Looks fine man but i’m always hesitant to run eels in units of 6 rather than 9. Then don’t zap enough and can be removed quite quickly! 

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Ok thx, It’s intersting. I gonna test that , if it doesn’t work I have to find something to remove to add 6 more eels:)

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So I was chatting with an adept icon tourney judge from my area yesterday (podcaster and former top death player ) and he thinks morrsarr is going to go up to around 200 points for a squad of three in the next generals handbook What's your thoughts on that? It would make it a huge investment, sure, but would they still be worth it?

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Turtles,  eidolons, sharks and hopefully reavers drop points and people can start playing interesting lists that don't consist of 18-24 eels. 

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51 minutes ago, Killamike said:

Turtles,  eidolons, sharks and hopefully reavers drop points and people can start playing interesting lists that don't consist of 18-24 eels. 

+1

 

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5 hours ago, Killamike said:

Turtles,  eidolons, sharks and hopefully reavers drop points and people can start playing interesting lists that don't consist of 18-24 eels. 

True, but as a guy who wanted to play non focused morsarr akhelian lists since they were leaked I'm a bit saddened by it all the same. But, if sharks and turtles drop then I may be happy yet.

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If Sharks and the rest went down, I could get behind expensive Morsarr.  You wouldnt lose too much close combat prowess that way and could still include a few units of Morsarr still.   

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It he one thing if we were taking different things before and the point changes shook out, and certain units were better then they were before. 

But even if let's say sharks get 20 points cheaper. That doesn't help me fill the whole that morrsarr leave in my list. Because they already can't provide what Morrsarr provide. 

Sharks have more in common with  thralls than Morrsarr. And we definitely need more deep sea creatures if monsters are going to be a tool in the box. Because, the turtle doesn't provide anything ishlaens don't. 

600 points for 9 morrsarr as a hammer just isn't acceptable when the rest of the army provides d3 or less mortal wounds. 

I'm deeply concerned about the viability of IDK at this point. Units are priced poorly, but the bigger unfixable issue is what these units actually do, relative to what the game demands.

I'm going to rewatch heat one if it confirms my suspicions about the real affectiveness of morrsarr.

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Posted (edited)

I really hope that be totally false since it would do morsar even bad. They are ok right now despite all the hate on them. Since even spaming them idoneths are around 4-6 th tournament wise.

 

Morsars do 10.4 dmg IF they chargue. Around 8 if they dont chargue. People usually forget it and thinks they do his best always. But thing is at best they do 10.4 dmg with 1 rend. At worst 8 dmg without rend. So agerage would be around 9.2 dmg with 0.5 rend. For 160 points i think they arent so great when every elite standar unit do the typical 20 3+ 3+ -1 1 dmg atack for 140-160 points. So 9 -1 dmg average without any charge.

 

So maths says morsar are perfect for 160. U could do a knee ****** reaction and raise it to 180 making his ability usable on every charge not only once. And of course coupled with huge disscounts on turtle. Avatars. Sharks and raise thralls weapons to 2" for god sake.

 

But 200 points would make them totally useless. And waaaay worse than tank eels or even thralls ( that are allready subpar)

Edited by Kitsumy
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If the morsarr go to 200, would people run smaller morsarr units and run other sharks and shield eels just to get numbers in.   Could Deepkin still be competitively viable especially if the Eidolons come down in points or would we sink completely ?

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I got into Deepkin because I love the models and they are the only good non-daughters Aelves.  I’ve always assumed the Morrsarr points increase will happen and have purposely avoided going Morrsarr heavy so I don’t become Morrsarr reliant.    Yes the current competitive play style and build relies on Morrsarr but keep in mind several things:

1.  How many of you have tried anything other than Morrsarr?  Deepkin are expensive, honestly how many other builds have even been tried since the first Morrsarr based wins started happening?   Anyone who gets into Deepkin is told to go Morrsarr heavy.  Have you even ever tried non-Fuethan or Dom Hain enclaves?

2. Morrsarr speak to an alpha-strike playstyle.  The other units are not built for pure alpha-strike.   The gap in your army is a gap in an alpha strike army which clearly won’t be filled.  Time to try a different style

3. Yes they are our main mortal wound dealers in current builds but the leviadon, tidecaster and aspect of the sea can also do that.   I have never found Morrsarr’s mortal wound output to be overly strong anyway given it is once a game.   It’s not exactly a reliable consistent MW output.  It’s what... 13 wounds total for the entire game from 18 eels?  2.5 per battle round.  And that’s assuming you are volting with a full unit.

 

Bottom line is I’m sticking to Deepkin and will find another way to play them.

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So am looking at a 1500 pts list with models in a list that is 'fun' but not overly agressive that has some tools to take out opponents but also for example contest objectives etc. Would love some comments on this list! Items etc. are variable and havent made up my mind..

Also would love some feedback on running allopexes either together in a unit, or solo. What are the advantages here. Am i right in saying that running them in a unit of 2 would be more disadvantagous vs running them as seperates (more susceptible to battle shock/less charging flexibility). 

Volturnos - 280 pts

Tidecaster - 100 pts 

Souslcryer - 100 pts 

2*3 morsarr guard - 320 pts 

3 ishlaen guard - 140pts 

2*10 Namarti thralls - 280 pts 

2* Allopexes - 280 pts 

total: 1500 pts 

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12 hours ago, Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll said:

Yeah, that seems to me to be going too far from "top tier unit in an upper-middle faction" to "scarcely useable in a lower-middle faction"

If that is response to me I don't think that is what I've said.

But, the reality is at this point in AoS2 there are two types archetypes. Alpha dmg dealers, or grindy game state management.

IDK have some of the tools for both, but Morrsarr let us put enough damage in the right places to pull of the first 60% of the time I would say. Sometimes we just get out dropped at the opposition gets their turn to set their buffs up and even Morrsarr don't work. 

We do have some decent objective management especially with allies. But too many parts of the book don't work harmoniously at the moment. Take the Leviadon, it doesn't affect, itself, or the apolex, it doesn't affect low tide. It doesn't affect chargers, which is basically the cavalry, and its even difficult to keep in range of chargers because of the nature or wholly within/charge/pile-in, unless you can pull off the double turn.

It can try to provide an alternative play style, focus on infantry, eels as objective runners. But its so expensive you can't get the balance between numbers and benefits to balance out. It is best in a game where the speed is much slower, where games are decided in turns 4 or 5. When in reality games are often decided by key moments in turns 2 and 3. Its why the King build has faded in top table tournament play, its just too slow to implement its strengths. 

I think that the limited number of playstyles in the book, would ultimately have had IDK settle in to a comfortable upper middle tier over time even without any point changes. With just a small amount of familiarity IDK are so predictable.

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10 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

I really hope that be totally false since it would do morsar even bad. They are ok right now despite all the hate on them. Since even spaming them idoneths are around 4-6 th tournament wise.

 

Morsars do 10.4 dmg IF they chargue. Around 8 if they dont chargue. People usually forget it and thinks they do his best always. But thing is at best they do 10.4 dmg with 1 rend. At worst 8 dmg without rend. So agerage would be around 9.2 dmg with 0.5 rend. For 160 points i think they arent so great when every elite standar unit do the typical 20 3+ 3+ -1 1 dmg atack for 140-160 points. So 9 -1 dmg average without any charge.

 

So maths says morsar are perfect for 160. U could do a knee ****** reaction and raise it to 180 making his ability usable on every charge not only once. And of course coupled with huge disscounts on turtle. Avatars. Sharks and raise thralls weapons to 2" for god sake.

 

But 200 points would make them totally useless. And waaaay worse than tank eels or even thralls ( that are allready subpar)

While I think you  missed the 2 rend rather than 1 rend, I do agree with you. They just don't feel too good at 200 points, almost the same like Blood Knights from SoulBlight. The points you bring up would make them a bit more fair according to other players, being 180 which we could survive with any other point decresses, but really, they bring what Idoneth need in lists even if they can only do it once a game or with the rend and damage on the charge.

 

22 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

It he one thing if we were taking different things before and the point changes shook out, and certain units were better then they were before. 

But even if let's say sharks get 20 points cheaper. That doesn't help me fill the whole that morrsarr leave in my list. Because they already can't provide what Morrsarr provide. 

Sharks have more in common with  thralls than Morrsarr. And we definitely need more deep sea creatures if monsters are going to be a tool in the box. Because, the turtle doesn't provide anything ishlaens don't. 

600 points for 9 morrsarr as a hammer just isn't acceptable when the rest of the army provides d3 or less mortal wounds. 

I'm deeply concerned about the viability of IDK at this point. Units are priced poorly, but the bigger unfixable issue is what these units actually do, relative to what the game demands.

I'm going to rewatch heat one if it confirms my suspicions about the real affectiveness of morrsarr.

I agree here on all fronts too. the morrsarr for me brings the hammer an all eel list really needs to be well rounded, and if they just become more expensive then we're going to be in a hard spot. the guy I was talking to brought up skyfires in DoT being super good too and needing a nerf, but I honestly didnt want to disagree that they are alike at all. At least DoT had other playstyles besides the big two we seem to have.

 

I will say, though, that a shark could be good in a game. a few times I had it act as an anchor and killer back field support unit, but outside of that he just isn't as good as morrsarr.

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Oh no i didnt miss the 2 rend. But since half the dmg is 0 rend and the other half is -2. Average rend is 1 in everything

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Frankly I disagree with enlightened needing much of a nerf, and I disagree with morrsarr. If every army got their best units nerfed, there would be a lot more on the chopping block than eels and enlightened. Also I don’t think eels or tzeentch have a viable playstyle that doesn’t include those units. Maybe tzeentch has changehost but bleh. Deepkin have to play so precisely to do well and are so body light as is that I feel they really need some morrsarr. 

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Posted (edited)

I play both BoC and IDK and i have 12 Eels and 12 Enlightened.

Both are very close to perfect balance, 20pts would be enough for them and both have another units (Skyfires and Ishlaen Guard) that should go down 20pts. This would be very well balanced. Anything more would be to much of a nerf, and personally i don't want them to go up. Each unit is strong but not over strong at all.

I'd argue that Thralls, Reavers, Sharks, Ishlaen needs to go down.  I'll use BoC as an example (I took them to adepticon, went 1 major, 1 minor, 1 lost, couldnt play day 2 sadly, i took them b.c my Deepkin wasnt finished painted).
BoC Bestigors are everything the Thralls are but cheaper and better save, on the charge vs hordes, 3 attacks, 3+, 3+, -1 1D, they are worst against Monsters (no 2D and 4+ to hit), but being 2pts cheaper and a 4+ with Run and charge, +1 Pile in and run, the ability to gain +3" movement (Bray Shaman gives all Brayherds +3" movement like the Royal Council but for free), they move a minimum of 11" (6+3+1+1), max of 16" (6+3+1+6), and they dont need a tide to do that, they always have that, and you dont see large amounts of players with 60+ of them, its  a healthy amount of players with and without them. AND they can still get bonus attacks. I had a 30man block the other night gain +2 attacks with re-rolls, saves,  hits,  and wounds of 1, it was a multi charge vs 4 units,  5 attacks each, i killed all 4 10mans in 1 go on turn 1. Sure Tzaangors on Disks are good too, but when looking at other possibilities you dont need to nerf them if other units are playable,

So looking at it from other armies, if we buff Thralls, Reavers, Sharks, Ishlean, Turtle, are we to strong? I dont think, i think if each army is getting the new balance treatment we will still be equal in placement. Some of the new Fyreslayers (at least on paper) seem insanely strong with all the buffs that book can do, sadly with a low unit count army they have the same problem we have, 1 or 2 ways to play and thats it and will be easily played around only b.c its the only way to play. But their power level is still solid. Looking at FEC and Skavin as well. I think no nerfs are needed.

PS, sorry about my English and grammar.
 

Edited by Maddpainting
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Sadly gw dont care about balance or what we say. Most of the people cry about eels being overpower. Everyone hates them. They are used a lot of soo all that means a huge points nerf by GW fir granted. Is the only way gw balance. Something isnt used ... We buff it to make people buy that mini more. Something is overused? Nerf it in order to force people to buy other models.

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A cool approach that GW is taking in 40k is the opposite actually. There are a few units in the game that are so ridiculous that yes they needed point increases (the Sigmar analogue IMO would be something like witch aelves). But a lot of other good units were left alone and the bad ones were buffed. So now a lot more units are viable and the people who had good things before are still fine. Those things just aren’t as good by comparison. Much better way of “nerfing” the top meta IMO

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Posted (edited)

@Kitsumy I'm not getting the GW doesn't care about balance thing.  Most of the armies are doing really well and placing really well at tournament if you looka t the honest war gamer. the only book army still doing poorly is  BoC, KO, and beast claw raiders.

@Maddpainting mmmm i definitly wouldn't compare accross armies because there is a lot more than comparing units on the surface. Enlightend are indeed great, but even BoC enlightend are different from DoT Enlightend, and enlightend preform (looking at the statistics and from playing lots of DoT and playinga friends BoC) are way better in DoT and are a bit closer to morrsarr.

Morsarr by the numbers and what they do are fine if you don't look at the army. However, forgotten night mares, tides, the kings command ability, and soul scryer out flank/bonus charge do ALOT to make Morsarr guard VERY powerful.  Are they OP??? I don't really think so, but if they were 180 i think you'd still see ALOT of morrsarr guard. 

Thralls against are in an army where you have morrsarr and they provide battle line for that army. So they are better than bestigors because they are in a better army. They are also a none tanky chaffe unit that can hold objectives while being virtually immune to enemy shooting, and turn 3 can be turned into a VERY powerful unit that is attack first. 

So the cross army compare is... eh i wouldn't do it. Just look at the army think.... is it doing a lot better than others??? if yes nerf something, and buff the bad stuff in the army. If no just buff some of the bad stuff in the army to allow more list variety. 

12 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

40k

40k balance kinda sucks and most units aren't seen because of the melting power armies. There isn't really a way to tell what is super great because the number of possible armies. Look at the mono factions in 40k they've won a few tournament but i don't recall them winning a single big tournament yet this year??

There are only like 2 armies that are doing so well they'd need a nerf in my book and i'd say daughters and legion of nagash when you look at the numbers, and at that only barely.  From there BoC, KO, Claw raiders, and maybe gits (eh?) could use a small buff. 

edit:
To bring morrsarr in line i'd take the battle line tag off morrsarr guard. It's not a big drop for them. I'd make the turtle and both aspects 100pts cheaper. I'd make the thralls 120pts for 10 and reavers 100 or 120pts for 10.

Edited by mmimzie
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For balance purpose you have to look at other armies tho. If you only look at each army in their own vacuum that wont help anything. And yes the ability to not be shot at is in theory good, until you look at other armies abilities to teleport, move, outflank, ambush, etc...

BoC can summon a shooting unit right behind you, or just move them, so can skaven, Sylvaneth, and some others, heck some can do multiples, i had a game where i was saving my PC points for summon for a Chimera but needed it on turn 3 rather than turn 4 and just summoned 2x10 shooting gors (Raiders) killed them and took it next turn.

There are many variables to look at, but we still need to compare somewhere, and i also dont think they need to not be battleline, if we can have dragons as battleline we can have Eels, after you balance Thralls, Reavers, Allopex, Levathan, Ishlaen guard you might find players not taking Morrsarr as much.

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If I wanted to start this army in 10 days when I get paid where should I start? 

I’m most attracted to the sharks, and I don’t really want to do the eel spam and my meta is more casual than not. 

How do I start Idoneth Deepkin? 

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3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

If I wanted to start this army in 10 days when I get paid where should I start? 

I’m most attracted to the sharks, and I don’t really want to do the eel spam and my meta is more casual than not. 

How do I start Idoneth Deepkin? 

You cannot go wrong with the starter box. Get some thralls, a soul render for the thralls and some eels to add some punch when you're starting out.  Adding a king as a general will make those eels battleline and you could add either more thralls or put as many sharks as you can in the list as you want, or buy a second box of thralls  for battle line and a tide caster to have spells,

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31 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

You cannot go wrong with the starter box. Get some thralls, a soul render for the thralls and some eels to add some punch when you're starting out.  Adding a king as a general will make those eels battleline and you could add either more thralls or put as many sharks as you can in the list as you want, or buy a second box of thralls  for battle line and a tide caster to have spells,

I’ll focus on a 1,000 point list for now, however for future reference how viable or quality is the giant sea turtle and the giant man on the wave? 

I like SOME eels but I don’t want to run ONLY eels because I think the strongest draw to the army is the aesthetics of all the variety of sea creatures. 

So I’m looking at the Start Collecting! Plus 1 King and 1 Tide Caster with Sharks and Thralls :) 

thanks I appreciate your help!

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