AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Siegfried VII]

10 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

 

For me my biggest bugbear with thralls is their base size and the wholly within rule restrictions. I really think they would have been a better unit on 25mm or if the idoneth had less "wholly within" for range restrictions. 

Or 2 inches range with their (long two handed) melee weapons at least...

[DantePQ]

@HollowHills yep second lits has 2x10 Thralls and 10 Reavers in it.  Reavers are kind of great in Fuethan list if you use them to sit around objectives/screen also their MV 8'' with re-rolls of runs help a lot later on to take objective etc. 

Deepkins didn't win any big tournaments but there were numerous lists in Top10s - mainly because they are unforgiving to play - you can get away with some mistakes with Nagash or DoK but with Deepkins it's harder as you got to be clinical and it's hard to do over 5 games. Also it's uphill battle against HaggNarr DoK as 30 Witches with bucklers can easily survive charge of 9 Morssar but it's winnable (especially with Doppleganger nerf) also that's where Cloud of Midnight is quite handy. I don't think Deepkins are far away behind Nagash and DoK, sure those two are Top Tier armies right now but Deepkins are not that far away, also it's possible that new Battletomes will shake things up as they could be good against for example Nagash/DoK but not that great against Deepkins. I still think that main issue is how unforgiving Deepkins are to play at the highest competitive level - happened to be a lot - one mistake/bad movemet/charge target and you're almost done. 

Thralls are what they are - they work great as 10 man units and I've played with huge blobs but it's not base size or wholly within restrictions it's more like Deepkins Battletome doesn't support them as big units- all those buffs you can apply to them are just "meh" if they had access to some kind of defense buff (+1 to save, even 6++) or some really good ofensive buffs like  +1 to attack/hit/rend/mortal wounds  or some kind of teleport/extra movement option etc they would be amazing but there is little to support  playstyle based on Thralls in Battletome. That's why I think they missed the opportunity with Soulrender, Lotann and Leviadon as they could easily have some kind of huge Namarati buffs or even Spell like that affects only Namarati. 

[Snitchey]

I've just jumped in with the deepkin. The Christmas battleforce pushed me over the edge. 

In addition to the battleforce. I've also picked up 3 more eels. 1x Leviadon. 1x  Elidolon. Volturnos / king. 1x Soulscryer 1 x shipwreck. 

All models I love. Please can someone help me with advice.

Given what I have, would you build sea or storm? And King or Volturnos? How should I build my eels 3 of each or 6 of one? I will add more in time but want to paint what I have first have a few games then add more units or expand units as required. Thanks

[Acid_Nine]

So how do people feel about two tide casters in an eel list? Don't wanna commit to an aspect, but I still want some magic thrown around. Plus, which magic spells are the best?

[DantePQ]

I found Tidecasters really underwhelming in eel lists, sure they can cast Steed of Tides on Aspect and that's basically it as they can't keep up with eels 

I also tried Aspect of the Sea but it's another model that doesn't really synergize with Eels Aspect of the Storm is much better. 

Deepkins aren't good at magic as they don't have access to really good spells the only useful spells are Steed of Tides and - 1 to hit. 

[Luke1705]

3 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I found Tidecasters really underwhelming in eel lists, sure they can cast Steed of Tides on Aspect and that's basically it as they can't keep up with eels 

I also tried Aspect of the Sea but it's another model that doesn't really synergize with Eels Aspect of the Storm is much better. 

Deepkins aren't good at magic as they don't have access to really good spells the only useful spells are Steed of Tides and - 1 to hit. 

They do have a lot of -1 to hit to be fair, but like you said they’re not a great magic army. Unreliable casters and too many other armies have access to auto unbind/unbind bonuses/are Nagash (in the competitive meta anyhow).

[DantePQ]

Yep, if you don't have bonuses to cast or extra range magic is quite unreliable especially with casters with only 1 casting attempt. Even Aspect of the Storm isn't good enough with 2 spells and no bonuses to cast/unbind  

[Luke1705]

By the way @DantePQ what do you normally try to do with the Tidecaster in your Dhom Hain list after the first turn? Her debuff spell or do you try to mystic shield the ethereal eidolon?

[DantePQ]

It depends, debuff isn't that handy as usually you wipe out enemy you wanna wipe out, but it's great against DoK for example, mystic shield is easy choice, but it's just extra and you are very frequently out of range 

[Acid_Nine]

4 hours ago, DantePQ said:

It depends, debuff isn't that handy as usually you wipe out enemy you wanna wipe out, but it's great against DoK for example, mystic shield is easy choice, but it's just extra and you are very frequently out of range 

You raise fair points, and I didnt even notice most of our spells are short ranged and are hard to use if you wanna keep up with eels, but I think there may be some endless spells that help that out a little bit. maybe the spell portal and / or the vortex could help? or running along to try and keep up every turn would be needed.

 

but I kinda disagree on the handiness of the spell from a theoryhammer side. I only used played idoneth once so this is theory, but I imagine that you could cast some -1 hit spells on units that are poised to charge your units? that way when their turn comes around it's harder to remove, and you are not casting spells on a unit you plan to wipe? 

[DantePQ]

It's a great spell don't get me wrong and it could be handy it doesn't have great synergy with how Deepkins play right now. Sure if you are able to cast on a unit you really want to debuff its great. 

But it doesnt synergize much with ultra aggressive playstyle. 

I came up with an army build a pound Ishalean and Tidecasters but it's quite static and all aboyt objective bunkering. 

[Acid_Nine]

Finally played a 1,000 point game with these guys, and I gotta say I am quite happy how they played. I did have some coaching as it was my first game of AOS 2, but most of the plan went as I intended barring some horrible dice rolls. 

_______________________________

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin - Mortal Realm: Ghyran
 - Enclave: Dhom-Hain
LEADERS
Akhelian King (240) - General - Command Trait : Born From Agony  - Artefact :  Ghyrstrike 
Isharann Tidecaster (100) - Lore of the Deeps : Abyssal Darkness
UNITS
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)
ENDLESS SPELLS
Umbral Spellportal (60)

________________________________

Opponent was  (blood bound of mainly 5  new!blood crushers squads, jugger lord with demonCrown and some blood priests)  and we were playing knife to the heart.

Turn 1 :I gave the opponent turn 1 so he would come closer and he did! I tried to cast the umbral spell portals but it completely flubbed (along with the rest of my magic so I will not mention it for this). the akhelian king,  morrsar and the ishlaen guard all charged into the front lines to tie up and hold down 4 blood crusher squads so they wouldn't charge me and deal mortal wounds . Ishlean guard tied down into two units of crushers to tie them up, King charged to support them and the morrsarr guard charged into two more crusher squads. the allopex sat with the tidecaster in back to hold the objective.

 Morsarr widely wiffed with three riders going into each thirster squad only killing two from one squad and one from the other with some wounds thrown in here and there. The king completely wiped one squad with his unicorn horn and relic glaive (+1 to hit and wound)  and my opponent killed one morrsarr guard with his lord.

Turn 2: my opponent got the turn and proceeded to blood boil my king down to one wound for another crusher squad to finish off, leaving my ishlaen squad to fend for themselves, and his lord ran away to threaten my objective.  when the combat phase rolled around I zapped my morrsarr guard's charge and finished off the two crusher squads through both it and combat while the ishlaen guard where whittled down by crusher squad to two guys.

my turn my shark charged the threatening lord and my morrsarr charged his two slaughter priests (in hind sight I should have went for the objective to win outright, but I wanted some more fun) and destroyed them with the spears thanks to some good dice.  my shark managed to take a massive bite from the lord, doing quite a bit of damage! Ishlaen held out but lost another guy, leaving only the prince, one very wounded crusher and one full strength squad of crushers.

Turn 3: facing high tide, my opponent used his blood tithe to attack in the hero phase rather than summon some hounds, and nearly killed the shark! He retreated to his objective with his higher strength squad of crushers.  Combat phase happened next and my shark somehow managed to kill his jugger lord, which was a complete surprise to me! he had some good rolls for his bites and fins.  My ishlaen got the crusher he was fighting down to one wound but died pathetically.

My turn came and My shark still held back at my objective and took a potshot at the remaining crusher and managed to kill it with a lucky shot! My morrsarr guard barely managed to kill the crusher squad that was holding the objective, and I tabled my opponent as well as score the objective! 

_______________

so with this one game I have not mastered deep kin, but I think I made a start. It was very fun, and barring some dissapointing dice rolls I feel I did well. The eels are just so darn fast, tough(ish) and can put out so many attacks. much better compared to my death army's blood knights in my oppinion. The tidecaster was mostly useless due to me not getting any magic off this enter game, and really just sat around doing nothing because of bad dice. the allopex completely surprised me with how much damage it put out and how it singlehandedly killed the juggerlord, and the morrsarr wrecked face as they were supposed to do. 

I probably could have positioned my king further on the flank so he wouldn't be charged as hard, as he was dead center and in front of the crusher squad held in reserve.  on the turn he charged though, he put out so much damage that I think I will make my model into a generic king rather than voltunous, and since I'm going dhom-hain I get re-roll ones on the turn I charge anyways so the larger bubble isn't needed.

 

overall I am excited to play more games!

[kore5022]

Different kind of question but just wondering if anyone has had any luck magntising eels to azyrite ruins (cant think of how else to attach them) and if so what size magnets did you use?

 

Thanks :)

[whispersofblood]

5 hours ago, kore5022 said:

Different kind of question but just wondering if anyone has had any luck magntising eels to azyrite ruins (cant think of how else to attach them) and if so what size magnets did you use?

 

Thanks

Yeah I've done it, I can check the package when I get home for the sizes. But, it works quiet well.

[JackStreicher]

You‘d need at least 2x2mm magnets and a Hobby-Drill. Drill the holes (one at the spot where the eel is supposed to be, one in the wall and put the magnets in (facing the right way).

done.

[Luke1705]

Played an interesting game vs Sylvaneth today. He brought Harvestboon and ran 70 dryads (30-30-10) with 6 scythe hunters and Durthu, plus the 2 branch...wyches? so it was a 1 drop with some serious charge bonuses. He also took cogs (though he never cast it).

I brought:

Eidolon of the Storm (ethereal amulet)

Volturnos (General)

Tidecaster

Soulscryer

9 Morrsarr

6 Morrsarr

6 Morrsarr

It was my first game using the scryer and I totally misplayed Volturnos. He didn’t get to use his command ability on anyone (could have done it on himself but it wasn’t necessary). I also messed up the initial charge on the 15 morrsarr. I tried to spread them too thin and wound up not being able to kill what they charged, which meant I had to fall back turn 2 with the 9 man squad so that I could charge on turn 3.

It’s also very easy to kill part of a squad so that your opponent can take their models out of 3” and this deny you an activation. The same applies to your biovoltaic blast if you’re not careful about how you charge.

But basically, these eels do a metric ton of damage. It’s a little silly. But when they don’t charge, it’s just night and day how much less they output. I’m thinking I will change to a tidecaster general list to change the tides table so that high tide is turn 2. Volturnos is great but having a bit of chaff is also nice to protect the unit of eels you will likely start on the board (unless you run 2 scryers).

The eidolon was good (literally unkillable with the amulet and mystic shield) and did some great damage. I like him not being able to be tied up in combat, but I think his damage output is just a little lackluster compared to his points.

Oh also I did win the game, but it was close. I was able to double turn him and if he had taken the double turn back, he probably would have had enough points to take the game.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Luke1705

[Azamar]

13 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

It’s also very easy to kill part of a squad so that your opponent can take their models out of 3” and this deny you an activation. The same applies to your biovoltaic blast if you’re not careful about how you charge.

 

Remember if a unit charges, it is still eligible to fight even if there’s no enemy models left within 3” (check out the pile in rules on page 230 in the main book) . With a 3” pile in and a 2” range on the spears, it’s hard for your opponent to completely leave the morrsarr guard out with casualty removals. 

[Luke1705]

5 hours ago, Azamar said:

Remember if a unit charges, it is still eligible to fight even if there’s no enemy models left within 3” (check out the pile in rules on page 230 in the main book) . With a 3” pile in and a 2” range on the spears, it’s hard for your opponent to completely leave the morrsarr guard out with casualty removals. 

Well I’ll be. You are totally right. Time to have some choice words with my silvaneth buddy haha!

[Acid_Nine]

21 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

Played an interesting game vs Sylvaneth today. He brought Harvestboon and ran 70 dryads (30-30-10) with 6 scythe hunters and Durthu, plus the 2 branch...wyches? so it was a 1 drop with some serious charge bonuses. He also took cogs (though he never cast it).

I brought:

Eidolon of the Storm (ethereal amulet)

Volturnos (General)

Tidecaster

Soulscryer

9 Morrsarr

6 Morrsarr

6 Morrsarr

It was my first game using the scryer and I totally misplayed Volturnos. He didn’t get to use his command ability on anyone (could have done it on himself but it wasn’t necessary). I also messed up the initial charge on the 15 morrsarr. I tried to spread them too thin and wound up not being able to kill what they charged, which meant I had to fall back turn 2 with the 9 man squad so that I could charge on turn 3.

It’s also very easy to kill part of a squad so that your opponent can take their models out of 3” and this deny you an activation. The same applies to your biovoltaic blast if you’re not careful about how you charge.

But basically, these eels do a metric ton of damage. It’s a little silly. But when they don’t charge, it’s just night and day how much less they output. I’m thinking I will change to a tidecaster general list to change the tides table so that high tide is turn 2. Volturnos is great but having a bit of chaff is also nice to protect the unit of eels you will likely start on the board (unless you run 2 scryers).

The eidolon was good (literally unkillable with the amulet and mystic shield) and did some great damage. I like him not being able to be tied up in combat, but I think his damage output is just a little lackluster compared to his points.

Oh also I did win the game, but it was close. I was able to double turn him and if he had taken the double turn back, he probably would have had enough points to take the game.

 

That's a lot of speels! I get your point on the chaff unit being necessary.  would you think that the shieelds would be a good chaff unit just to absorb some fire? or maybe replacing the eidolon with a turtle to give some cover for the turn after the charge? also, when did you deploy the shocking stuff?

[Luke1705]

1 hour ago, Acid_Nine said:

 

That's a lot of speels! I get your point on the chaff unit being necessary.  would you think that the shieelds would be a good chaff unit just to absorb some fire? or maybe replacing the eidolon with a turtle to give some cover for the turn after the charge? also, when did you deploy the shocking stuff?

Turtle isn’t going to work. Too expensive for too little. Eidolon’s fall back and charge is necessary for him to work. Chaff isn’t as important with the scryer but I’m going to transition to a double scryer list most likely. Something like:

(Fuethan)

Scryer

Scryer

Tidecaster (General)

9 Morrsarr

9 Morrsarr

6 Morrsarr

10 Thralls

10 Thralls

10 Reavers

 

Could also drop 6 Morrsarr and one scryer and turn that into the Eidolon again. Deployment of the eels varies by opponent but turn 1 is ok. Turn 2 is better if you can wait because then you have high tide already or turn 3 if you’re not using the Tidecaster as your general.

You can use some shield eels but the stabby eels are just so freaking efficient and can usually get the first charge off (which is mostly what matters with a glass cannon unit).

[Acid_Nine]

2 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

Turtle isn’t going to work. Too expensive for too little. Eidolon’s fall back and charge is necessary for him to work. Chaff isn’t as important with the scryer but I’m going to transition to a double scryer list most likely. Something like:

--

You can use some shield eels but the stabby eels are just so freaking efficient and can usually get the first charge off (which is mostly what matters with a glass cannon unit).

I don't know, I have seen them do some work on battle reports. I may be biased towards the akhelians though, as I just like everything about them. I agree on the love for the speels though, and they are definatly the focus of the book for now. I wish we had some more really good units to compete, as I fear a bit of a nerf when the general's handbook drops in half a year... though I may be paranoid.

[Luke1705]

I should clarify. I play pretty competitively so when I say “turtle isn’t good for me” I mean that “turtle can’t compete with 30 witch elves”

Which isn’t a fair comparison as very few things outside of stabby eels can compete with 30 witch elves.

I wouldn’t worry too much about a nerf unless you’re like me and stocking up on stabby eels...but I still love the look of those models and will play them no matter how competitive they aren’t at some potential point in the future.

[Skreech Verminking]

Technical issue

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by Skreech Verminking

[Sactownbri]

On 12/24/2018 at 6:53 PM, Acid_Nine said:

So how do people feel about two tide casters in an eel list? Don't wanna commit to an aspect, but I still want some magic thrown around. Plus, which magic spells are the best?

Personally I don’t think they are very good when compared to other factions. I only ever take one with Arcane Corrasion to snipe characters.

[Luke1705]

1 minute ago, Sactownbri said:

Personally I don’t think they are very good when compared to other factions. I only ever take one with Arcane Corrasion to snipe characters.

It’s less that out spells aren’t great and more that our spells are really tough to cast in a Nagash and Morathi-heavy meta. Deepkin just do other things a lot better than magic