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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

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4 hours ago, Pyro5torm said:

Hi, trying to get a friend into the hobby and he likes the look of deepkin. After reading some of the comments here it seems as though the Christmas bundle isn't the best for viability so what would be a good starting point for him? I'm planning on getting him some stuff for Christmas (£50) then he was planning on adding £50 or so, so he has around £100 to spend.

He's planning on adding more later aswell so how would people recommend expanding? Any must have units / units to avoid?

 

Thanks for the help!

If starting a competitive army, at £100 you can’t go wrong with getting these models:

1x Akhelian King

2x Akhelian eels

1x Tidecaster/ Soulscryer. 

Personally I’d still get the Battleforce set because of its money value worth. 

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Hey guys, been working on an Idoneth "counts-as" army for a few months. Never been a fan of the flying fish on land idea, but love the rules and wanted to keep a nautical motif, so: birds. I've tried quite hard to keep weapons and base sizes accurate. Hopefully you enjoy!

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4 hours ago, Gwill_of_the_Woods said:

@Rogue Sun, I absolutely love it! What a fantastic concept and really well executed!

What does that translate to in terms of warscrolls?

Thanks!

Currently it's:

Ahkelian King

Tidecaster

Soulscyrer

2x6 Morsaar

6x Ishlean

Archmage on Dragon

3x Aetherwings

 

On the painting table is:

2 Allopex

Ahkelian King/Volturnus

6x Aetherwings

4x Cellestar Ballista

1x Leviadon

But those may take some time.

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On 11/7/2018 at 3:06 PM, BionicRope64 said:

 

Like if anyone willing to say, how hard is stuff like the King's and the Eidolonls to make? I'm a bit worried by how fragile the look, the horses tentacles and the Eidolonl's cloak. I did years ago try to make with-aelfs and really struggled but that was years ago, and I've gotten better.  Still they look very fiddly. Hopefully Idoneth are easier. Hell I love the Morthai model but it looks so fragile.

 They‘re easy to build (King more so than the Eidolon). Both look fragile but they‘re sturdy (especially the king)

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50 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

  They‘re easy to build (King more so than the Eidolon). Both look fragile but they‘re sturdy (especially the king)

The real pain is the ****** stand for the eels. Negligent design imo.

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10 minutes ago, The World Tree said:

The real pain is the ****** stand for the eels. Negligent design imo.

The design is due to a sphere-stand as in the past the whole eel would have to be cut in half to avoid any  undercut when casting.

 

I magnetised mine.

Edited by JackStreicher

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7 hours ago, CanHammer-darren said:

Namarti reavers. Don’t seem that great but our only really shooting unit. Any hope there?

...use allies?! :P

Waywatcher would do the trick!

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8 hours ago, CanHammer-darren said:

Namarti reavers. Don’t seem that great but our only really shooting unit. Any hope there?

They are actually quite good if you dont use them as only a shooting unit, they're more of a skirmish/harassing unit than anything else.  You need to shoot and then charge to really get the best out of them.

If you want good shooting then like @Gwill_of_the_Woods said, use allies. Wanderers or Stormcast are pretty solid options.

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I honestly would like to hear an overall opinion on Namarti Reavers.

I used them several times now, lately I fielded 2x10. In the whole game they killed 4 Bestigors before being shredded without any effort.

In my experience these guys are sadly worthless for their current costs. They‘re a 100 pts unit at best, even then they‘d need an ability like the DoK Khinerai Heartseakers have.

you pay 140 points for potential 30 shots which won‘t do anything. In melee you might kill some low save Infantry if the Namarti did not have such absurdly huge bases. At range they are useless. The triple shot will get you charged and killed, charging will get you killed, no points drop for maximum size... who the hell designed them and thought they were a good idea? The only thing they can harass are Goblins, wich will eventually outshoot and outmelee them as well 🤦🏼‍♂️

It‘s a 140 points point sink, even black Ark Corsairs are more useful...

 

Imo they would need:

The  long-range Shot should be 3+, 4+,  6s doubling the damage. This can‘t be used if you ran.  If you ran you can use the tripple shot at 9“, the tripple shot gets -1 rend.

then they‘re worth 140 pts.

 

 

It‘s a shame that the best Models of the range suck that hard at everything.

 

Edited by JackStreicher
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6 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I honestly would like to hear an overall opinion on Namarti Reavers.

*snip*

 

In the games i've played them they tend to get ignored, which may help but my last game with them they shot and charged a unit of 20 Saurus Warriors and killed a large chunk of them before my Thralls finished off the unit.  Believe I killed 8-9 with the Reavers alone, yeah a fair few of them died as well but that is also basically what they are there for. 

On average vs a 5+ save they will do 9-10 wounds if you focus all their attacks. Which really isnt bad at all.  Bestigors for comparison will do around 6 or 9 if they charged, Thralls will average 11 against 1 wound models but only 7-8 against 2-3 wound models.  I think one of the biggest issues people run in to with basically all of Idoneth is target selection.  Yeah if you send your Reavers at Sequitors they're probably going to do nothing and just die, but that isnt what their job is.  They are there to kill the low save units, you have Morrsarr/Thralls to kill hard targets or Ishlaen to hold them up.

The funny thing is that you see Reavers in some well placing Tournament lists(before people jump on this, i'm not saying they're always taken, they are taken semi-frequently though especially in Fuethan lists), if they were that useless why would people be taking them?  You just need to adjust what you believe they do, they are not a shooting unit, they are a combination unit of some shooting and some combat.

Edited by Drofnum

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40 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

they are a combination unit of some shooting and some combat.

That‘s why they are so bad, they try to be everything a little and they accomplish to be bad at everything.

4+ rolls are sadly very swingy. If you direct 30 shots at a 5+ unit you score 7,5 wounds of which  5 will penetrate the armor.

now if you charge with them you have to make sure that they fight first or they die. (Bestigors would kill 8 Reavers if the Reavers charged) since you usually have higher priority fights they die. If they get charged, they die. They try to be disruption units but they‘re actually very costly cannon-fodder. Is there even a single synergie working with them? (Keep in mind they have to get close so they‘re mostly out of range of your heroes, and their stupid very low  range  „wholly within“ auras)

overall the tradeoff of Reavers is never worth 140 points. Their biggest issue is that they are not specialized, they‘re wow classic Paladins which suck at everything (while being overpriced). 😕

Edited by JackStreicher

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We can agree to disagree on the fact that they suck and arent worth their points.  I have used a unit of 10 in about a dozen games and havent felt they didnt pull their weight in many of those, perhaps we play them differently or just have different play styles but your experience is not mine at all.

You are right that they will usually need to swing first in their combat, but that is the case for most 5+ save units.  In your example if the Bestigors swing first the Reavers die, if the Reavers swing first the Bestigor die, does that make the Bestigor any less useful? You also forget in that example that 5 of those Bestigor have died so realistically you're going to lose 3 reavers and still come out alright in the end.

13 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Is there even a single synergie working with them?

Lotann, Soulrender and Aspect of the Storm all have buffs for them and its no harder to keep them up on Reavers than on Thralls really.

Edited by Drofnum

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Reavers aren’t bad. The other units are just amazing, which makes people think they are bad by comparison.

GW seems to (usually) put a high value on units that can attack at range for some reason.

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maybe it's my match-ups. I usually ace Beasts of chaos and Stormcasts. They shock in turn one and start to dismantle my army.

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Well, thanks to my secret santa at Gw this year I managed to finally have more of idoneth after an entire year of pining for them. Managed to get two boxes of eels and an alopex, so all I need is a tide caster and one more eel box and I would have my ideal 1,000 point army. 

now beyond one game against storm casts where I proxied blood knights for speels I have no clue what I am doing with this army. I have a general idea, so here's my 1,000 points that is currently in the making...

_______________________________


Allegiance: Order - Mortal Realm: Ghur - Enclave: Dohmn-Hain
LEADERS
Isharann Tidecaster (100) - Artefact :  Sands of Infinity  - Lore of the Deeps : Abyssal Darkness
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280) - General
UNITS
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140) / ishlaen guard (140)
ENDLESS SPELLS
Quicksilver Swords (20)
_______________________

so aside from the tide caster this list is all mobile and calvalry heavy, and the plan is to try and gain a first turn charge by letting the enemy go first to gain the field, retreat turn 2 with my morrsarr only to charge turn 3 with them at high tide in order to get as much as an advantage as I could.  the tactics can be altered to fit the plan,  and it isn't set in stone. I want to get one more box of shieelds some day to replace the alopex, but for now I think this would be a fun list to try out.

 

 

Edited by Acid_Nine

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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

maybe it's my match-ups. I usually ace Beasts of chaos and Stormcasts. They shock in turn one and start to dismantle my army.

I dont have much of a problem with Stormcast and the only Beasts player around here isnt all that competitive so it could definitely be matchups.  I'm not running heavy reavers by any means either my core is 9 Morrsarr and 6 Ishlaen so they definitely do the heavy lifting.

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Hi everyone! 

 

Deciding on what new project i want to start after cristmas and deepkin is in my top 3. Im a real noob with this army so i would love your help to start! 

- is it good to start off with the battleforce? What should i buy after that? What works good on the table? 

- based on the q's above. What would you play at 1k? Please share a list you've used to good effect! 

- how is the army doing atm? (Competitive, tournaments and such) 

- What is There overall playstyle?

- What are the winners/losers of the army unit wise? 

 

Thank you for your replies! All help is greatly appriciated 

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3 hours ago, Kimbo said:

Hi everyone! 

 

Deciding on what new project i want to start after cristmas and deepkin is in my top 3. Im a real noob with this army so i would love your help to start! 

- is it good to start off with the battleforce? What should i buy after that? What works good on the table? 

- based on the q's above. What would you play at 1k? Please share a list you've used to good effect! 

- how is the army doing atm? (Competitive, tournaments and such) 

- What is There overall playstyle?

- What are the winners/losers of the army unit wise? 

 

Thank you for your replies! All help is greatly appriciated 

I suggest watching some batreps on the idoneth to see if you like them and get a feel for some of their units, and how lists would look. I heard they are quite good, especially the eels, and the playstyle seems to be hard hitting but small units. 

honestly from what I have seen the only big loser of this army is the allopex. the shark boys don't seem to do much other than take a few potshots and hold objectives, but I have yet to play them to any affect so I wouldnt know personally. our boys are fast, but can be dragged down and overwhelmed quite quickly if you are not careful.

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16 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

I suggest watching some batreps on the idoneth to see if you like them and get a feel for some of their units, and how lists would look. I heard they are quite good, especially the eels, and the playstyle seems to be hard hitting but small units. 

honestly from what I have seen the only big loser of this army is the allopex. the shark boys don't seem to do much other than take a few potshots and hold objectives, but I have yet to play them to any affect so I wouldnt know personally. our boys are fast, but can be dragged down and overwhelmed quite quickly if you are not careful.

Thanks for the tip! 

 

I have watched some battle reports and it helps alot! 

 

Anyone else? Any tip on how to build a 1k list from the battle force box? Or should i skip it if the sharks are rather bad? 

Edited by Kimbo

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10 minutes ago, Kimbo said:

Thanks for the tip! 

 

I have watched some battle reports and it helps alot! 

 

Anyone else? Any tip on how to build a 1k list from the battle force box? Or should i skip it if the sharks are rather bad? 

I posted a suggestion a ways back. Could swap eels to whatever type you want in there or throw in a scryer and some endless spells.  Quite a few options to go from the battleforce box.  Sharks arent really bad either, they just get outshone by Eels, you'll do fine with them if you arent planning on running tournaments and they'll probably get a buff in the next GHB anyway.

Isharann Tidecaster (100)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (280)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)

Total: 960 

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So I had another Game (1850 pts) vs stormcasts with a lot of Sequitors (10, 2x5), 6 palladors, a ballista, Lord-Arcanum on gryph charger, Lord-Relictor, Lord-Venator (the flying bow guy), a knight-Aquilor. Celestial Vindicators.

I fielded:

1 Akh. King, Ethereal Amulet and Born from Agony,  a Tidecaster - Steeds of Tide ,  Aspect of the Storm, 30 Thralls, 10 Reavers, 1 Allopex, 6 Morsarr, 3 Ishlean Guard. Dhom-Hain

I tried not to build the List too eel focused since I prefer balanced builds.

we rolled for the scenario (in the Big Rule Book) and we played the first one (Sth. Sth. Glory): you win if you control 4/4 objectives by the start of turn 4. (or if you control the most objectives by the end of turn 5. if it‘s still a draw it‘s decided by killpoints.

 

I placed my units so he couldn‘t deepstrike into my back. He had the first turn, deepatriked, charged my 6 Morsarr with the palladors and 10 Sequitors and pretty much wiped them. The rest of the game was damage control and in the End all I had left we’re my 30 thralls a Tidecaster and one Ishlean Guard. Granted I did a few mistakes and I refused to fix them afterwards in order to learn from them.

my conclusion to the game and the units:

Though most people complain about the eels I feel like you need to build eel-heavy to stand a chance in a competetive Environment which is a pitty for balanced lists.

I kept my Reavers around the Aspect of the Storm which made their shooting damage acceptable: rerolling 1s to wound ( 3 dead Sequitors and 2 wounds on the palladors damage caused within 3 turns). They didn‘t do anything in melee though. The Allopex chewed 2 turns on the ballista.... My heroes were the Ishlean Guards which, as usual dealt a lot of dmg while tanking like demigods. The Aspect was lackluster. The King was okay and died to 6 lucky mortal wounds due to the Palladors mounts (-_-!!). The Morsarr were utter ****** which wasn‘t their fault, but the fault of Turn 1 Alpha- Deepstrikes...🥺

overall I feel like most of the army’s internal point-balance is quite off. Imo the following points would rather fit the actual use of the units (what do you think?)

Aspect of the Sea - 340/360

Aspect of the Storm - 320/340

Leviadon - 320/340

Allopex - 80/100

Reavers - 100

thralls - 120/140

Ishlean 140/160

morsarr 160/180

Soulscryer 120

All Battallions down by 10 to 20. 

Let‘s see what January will bring...

=}

Edited by JackStreicher

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I'm abit uncertain on were to start with my idoneth army. I have some more questions i would love your answer to (experienced players since you know what you talk about, no offence 🙂

 

- can the army be played competitive other then spamming eels? I would love to play and list with more than 1 unit spammed, not my thing! (I love the reavers and thralls!) 

- Reading on this forums some are afraid that eels will be nerfed, this make me a bit scared to invest tons of money into an "eels" army, should i be worried or not?

I made a list. What do you think? Foot Troops are there to sitter back on objectives as the other units run forward, simlpy put. How would you make it better? 

1x King 

10x Thralls 

6x Morrsarr 

3x Ishlaen 

10x Reavers 

980p. (How can i use the last 20p?) 

Cheers! 

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