AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[newsun]

16 hours ago, thundrchickn said:

 

Updated ID worksheet.xlsx

I suggest moving this to Google sheets. Easier for people to get your changes and share.

[Kitty]

12 minutes ago, Nerdkingdan said:

Don't want to nitpick, but 3+ isn't actually 66%, its 66.6 repeating.    You often use 1/2 or 5/6 and the like, but instead in some places you use a rounded percentage,   for example you opted for 66% instead of 2/3 or 4/6.   While this wouldn't be a big change over all its skewing your numbers especially when things are close or have a large number of attacks.    Anything that has a 2/3 chance is losing some of its actual damage, and it does add up when we are comparing things that ultimately vary only a few decimal places.

Otherwise thanks, great info.

You are correct, it should be represented as 66.67% as most of the results have been rounded to two decimal places.

[thundrchickn]

I'm on my phone now so I can't double check like I'd like but I thought I did put the in with higher precision but just formatted to 2 places for visual appeal.  Most people don't understand the concept of Significant Figures anyways.  It wouldn't matter anyways is that the difference of hundredths of a percentage would usually still fall within the Margin of Error so long as the calculations follow the same procedure throughout.

[Nerdkingdan]

2 hours ago, thundrchickn said:

I'm on my phone now so I can't double check like I'd like but I thought I did put the in with higher precision but just formatted to 2 places for visual appeal.  Most people don't understand the concept of Significant Figures anyways.  It wouldn't matter anyways is that the difference of hundredths of a percentage would usually still fall within the Margin of Error so long as the calculations follow the same procedure throughout.

I went through and played with the downloaded copy before I mentioned it, changing it to 2/3 or 66.67  did up the results of models with 3+ rolls.    What you did makes the Reavers look slightly better since they are mostly 50% 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Nerdkingdan

[DantePQ]

I still don't see a problem with Battalions, almost every battalion in a game has some kind of tax. Royal Council is fine as well as Namarti Corps. Surely everybody wants more artifacts and extra abilities. But compared to new Army Books written with AoS 2.0 all of them have such Battalions (Nurgle and everything else after). Also keep in mind that every Battalions comes with 1CP which is worth 50pts so for example. 

Reavers are good as I still think that balanced Deepkin army is a way to go as it ticks a lot of boxes but Eels list will be very strong as well. 

Aspects are overpriced but they got a lot of rules build into them. For example for his role Aspect of The Sea could easily work without offensives abilities to be 60 pts cheaper. Aspect of the Storm would be amazingly with ability to cast and unbid one spell. But even with 20-40 pts discounts on each there would be better ways to spend your pints because both Eels units are so point efficient. 

I like Reavers as they are good battleline units they just flat out lose to Eels. I would love unit like Reavers in DoK as battleline problem is you will include them only in an army with Tidecaster general to reverse Tides. It's crazy powerful but needs to haven't an army build around it. 

Eels are so awesome regarding point efficiency and possibility to have them as battleline that it makes Reavers and Aspects just not very appealing. Also I wouldn't be surprised to see Briomdar Thrall heavy army with Tidecaster general to completely dominate the board with Soulscryer and aggressive set up/movement as you such an army would dominate the board on 2nd turn (which is usually crucial) 

Army I will be playtesting next 

Volturnos 

Tidecaster with Spellmirror and Abyssal Darkness 

Tidecaster 

Soulscryer 

30 Thralls 

9 Ishalean Guard 

6 Ishalean Guard 

6 Morssar Guards 

[thundrchickn]

I played Murder Host last night with 

Volturnos -general

AoSea -Abyssal Darkness, Sword of Judgement

1x30 thralls

4x3 Ishlaen 

2x3 Morsarr

Fuethan

1 CP

 

Scenario was relocation orb.  I placed my boats so he would be bottle necked if he had that side or I'd have 6+ if I go that side and there weren't any better places for them.  I chose sides so I made him take that corner so Ishlaen guard were able to hold him at the bottle neck.  I held the Morsarr back but turn 1, the Ishlaen killed half of the bloodletters on the table and I only lost 2 models.  Also killed a 4 man dog squad. 

Turn 2

He moved a character out of position to chase the objective.  The bloodletters were stuck between the boats and Ishlaen.  He finished off a unit of Ishlaen with his MW prayer ability.   Killed a couple more in combat with the bloodletters. My turn, Morsarr move after the objective and the character that claimed it.  Merc'd him bad.  1 unit of bloodletters gets finished off, second dog unit finished, 2nd bloodletters unit down to 5 models.

Turn three

He wins priority.  Brings skulltaker to take objective.  Bloodletters all die.  Repositions his characters which is all he has left.  My turn, everything zooms out to character hunt.  He gives up.   

I think Ishlaen are stand out units that will eventually get a nerf in the next ghb.

Edited July 29, 2018 by thundrchickn

[Reuben Parker]

2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Army I will be playtesting next 

Volturnos 

Tidecaster with Spellmirror and Abyssal Darkness 

Tidecaster 

Soulscryer 

30 Thralls 

9 Ishalean Guard 

6 Ishalean Guard 

 6 Morssar Guards 

I like the look of this list no real wasted units and a lot of power (high wound count for IDK as well). Only thing I would tweak is run the big 9 shield eels unit in small units for flexibility. 

[DantePQ]

What I like about 9 man strong unit is that it can tarpit almost anything and can't be easily singled out, you can even screen it out as they produce great number of attacks but it's something to consider how to run them for sure. 

There is Briomdar Thrall heavy list I am dying to playtest 

Briomdar Enclave/Shyish Realm

Tidecaster general with Lord of Storm and Sea and Steed of Tides

Tidecaster with - 1 to hit spell 

Soulscryer 

Aspect of the Storm with Ethereal Amulet 

2x30 Thralls 

10 Reavers 

9 Ishalean Guard 

There is 20 points left for Triumph or some endless spell

Idea is easy use Steed of Tides to move Aspect in front of enemy, advance Thralls or keep them with Soulscryer reverse Tides. 

Then enemy has a problem as Aspect is big threat behind his lines and he can't easily do anything with Thralls as they should eat hordes easily as well as Monsters or some units like Blightknights

Also with Briomdar its easier to alpha striker if your opponent makes any set up mistakes. And Briomdar is crucial to advance with Thralls and to use Shipwrecks to great advantage. 

Many battles are decided by 2nd turn and this kind of army gives you huge headstart and then enough bodies and mechanics (Ishalean Guards, stacking - 1 to hit) to finish battle easily. 

[whispersofblood]

What is the utility of abyssal darkness? I've found I mostly spend the whole game charging, and thus hit debuffs have been doing more work. 

Just so you are aware. My 2k NH list has two battalions, more spells per turn, more wounds and consistent mortal wound output. 

The trade off is some overall raw speed, made up for with deployment and redeployment options. 

[DantePQ]

It depends sometimes games are decided by :

- how quickly you are able to capture objectives 

- how long can you hold them 

Deepkin are great at it as they can do both as well as anybody. And Abyssal Darkness helps a lot a-difference between 3+ save and 4+ is huge. For those reason alone pure Eels list could be awesome. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by DantePQ

[Unter]

On 7/26/2018 at 11:36 PM, DantePQ said:

Again

1) Reavers are good, they're not broken but have uses, they are awesome at guarding objectives and doing a lot of little stuff

2) Most armies have useless battalions - what you're proposing is just giving powerful effects to units that you want to include and it doesn't work that way. Daughters of Khaine have bad battalions as well, Nurgle doesn't have much, Death isn't using many as well. I love how battalions are constructed in recent Battletomes. 

3) so what ? There are many units overpriced or underpriced in AoS. Sure Aspect of the Sea maybe is too expensive but on the other hand you got unit of 12 W, that's got bunch of attacks, flies 14'' and igonres rend for 140

4) IDK are not shooting army 

5) many other armies lack them as well (DoK?)and still you got access to generic CA and Akhelian King and Volturnos have amazing CAs. 

 

Just to respond to this point on Reavers with a similar point I've made before to provide some game detail to the excellent spreadsheet that has also been linked:

It's important to be realistic about the output of a single unit of Reavers. Over 9"  range you'd expect 1.5 wounds per turn if you are shooting into a 4+ save, and you have a very good chance of doing 0 damage to a 3+ save.

Even at close range a full volley would only expect to do 3/4 wounds into a 4+ save, and 2 wounds into a 3+.

Say if you took 3 units of Reavers, that would mean 420 points of your army shooting from distance into a 4+ save would do 3-4 wounds.

If you are taking them as objective grabbers they are neither cheap nor survivable, with low saves and low bravery. And as the other poster mentioned, their already extremely low damage falls off swiftly as soon as they lose 1 or 2 models.

If you are looking for cheap, flexible objective grabbers, ally in some Khinerai Heartrenders, who you can deploy off the board before deep striking them in.

They also won't do much damage, but you can keep them to take objectives turn 3-4 when no other unit can cross the board to steal.

The best use I've had out of my reavers (who I do think are super cool models!) has been to put them out front to get shot at instead of my thralls. Though that does beg the question as to whether it wouldn't be better to just take...another unit of thralls, then if any do somehow survive I'll have the consolation that they will still do decent damage.

[Manxs]

Hey guys i just got some deepkin stuff and this a list i am thinking of running what do you think

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Mor'Phann
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Isharann Soulrender (100)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony 
- Artefact: Black Pearl 
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)
- Artefact: Arcane Pearl 
- Lore of the Deeps: Arcane Corrasion
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Lore of the Deeps: Protective Barrier (Nautilar Tidecasters)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)

Battleline
20 x Namarti Reavers (280)
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)

Battalions
Namarti Corps (100)

Endless Spells
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95
 

[Edwang]

27 minutes ago, Manxs said:

Hey guys i just got some deepkin stuff and this a list i am thinking of running what do you think

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Mor'Phann
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Isharann Soulrender (100)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony 
- Artefact: Black Pearl 
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)
- Artefact: Arcane Pearl 
- Lore of the Deeps: Arcane Corrasion
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Lore of the Deeps: Protective Barrier (Nautilar Tidecasters)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)

Battleline
20 x Namarti Reavers (280)
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)

Battalions
Namarti Corps (100)

Endless Spells
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95
 

I believe your tidecaster can not take Protective Brrier because your Enclave is Mor'Phann, and for Namarti Corp battalion you need at least 2 units of reavers.

I prefer two Soulrenders for your 2 units of  Thralls and change AoSea for AoStorm, or save 440 pts for another tidcaster or/and some eels for the sake of flexibility (more Thralls would be good too).

More suggestion: And since you can not use Vulturnos' command ability (he must be your general )but still use his re-roll ability, I'd recommend the King.

anyway, it's a great army

Edited July 30, 2018 by Edwang
add more suggestion

[Reuben Parker]

Well I saw a post a while back saying Nautiler was useless (not that I particularly disagree with that on the whole). It made my mind juices flow though and I came up with the following. 

Aspects of storm ignoring a point of rend and re rolling when charged is maybe the best unit to use that enclave. As such I give you the ultra low wound count. 

Volturnos - general

Aspect storm - cloud of midnight

Aspect storm - Ignaxs scales 

scryer 

tidecaster - protective barrier 

10 thrall

10 thrall 

3 shield eel 

2*5 heart renders

Royal Council

In regards to Mor’Phann there’s a couple of lists and previous discussion a page or two back. Personally I am now thinking they’re better without battalion and needs more than 1 render. 

[Kugane]

5 hours ago, Manxs said:

Hey guys i just got some deepkin stuff and this a list i am thinking of running what do you think

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Mor'Phann
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Isharann Soulrender (100)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony 
- Artefact: Black Pearl 
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)
- Artefact: Arcane Pearl 
- Lore of the Deeps: Arcane Corrasion
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Lore of the Deeps: Protective Barrier (Nautilar Tidecasters)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)

Battleline
20 x Namarti Reavers (280)
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)

Battalions
Namarti Corps (100)

Endless Spells
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95
 

If you haven't made purchases yet, I sincerly advice to avoid the thralls and reavers and get eels instead. Also, instead of the aspect of sea, get the turtle or more tidecasters (you could convert a few) :), your list will be a lot more competitive! The thralls and reavers are way too fragile to be the backbone of your army, and the aspect of the sea does not deal enough damage to make him worth his point cost (neither is the storm). I wish I had figured this out BEFORE buying, painting and playing them.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Kugane

[Reuben Parker]

8 minutes ago, Kugane said:

If you haven't made purchases yet, I sincerly advice to avoid the thralls and reavers and get eels instead. Also, instead of the aspect of sea, get the turtle or more tidecasters (you could convert a few) :), your list will be a lot more competitive! The thralls and reavers are way too fragile to be the backbone of your army, and the aspect of the sea does not deal enough damage to make him worth his point cost (neither is the storm). I wish I had figured this out BEFORE buying, painting and playing them.

All eels maybe the most competitive (I say maybe as I don’t think IDK are fully explored) but saying that the eels do seem to have the most power. So we could be reductive and play something like. 

Volturnos 

tidecaster 

scryer 

3*6 spear eels

4*3 shield eels (sub in a unit or two of Thralls maybe for screening and zoning). 

Although the list is probably very good, to me it just makes my heart cold. I have a strange combination as I like competitive gaming and tournaments but only playing lists that I also like.  To me there’s no point doing IDK if your not using Aspects and turtles maybe with an allopex or the other way playing a bunch of Thralls. 

 

As always though list building is horses for courses and what each person likes both in terms of models and play style.  

[mmimzie]

I'm more and more becoming a fan of the turtle. I dont love it. However... 

 

I don't think shield eels are all that amazing with out constant cover access, and the turtle does that very well giving you coverage over half or more of the objectives in any given scenario. 

 

Plus the turtle can act as a weak unit of morrsarr when receiving buffalo from a king. 

[Kugane]

7 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

All eels maybe the most competitive (I say maybe as I don’t think IDK are fully explored) but saying that the eels do seem to have the most power. So we could be reductive and play something like. 

Volturnos 

tidecaster 

scryer 

3*6 spear eels

4*3 shield eels (sub in a unit or two of Thralls maybe for screening and zoning). 

Although the list is probably very good, to me it just makes my heart cold. I have a strange combination as I like competitive gaming and tournaments but only playing lists that I also like.  To me there’s no point doing IDK if your not using Aspects and turtles maybe with an allopex or the other way playing a bunch of Thralls. 

 

As always though list building is horses for courses and what each person likes both in terms of models and play style.  

I understand your point and I think you mean that your heart is cold as in that you won't enjoy the list, but if you meant that you feel you are coldhearted fielding an overly competitive list, that is hardly the case, the way it stands right now is that Idoneth are only barely competitive in the sense that if you wait until turn 3 you can pretty much delete any unit, but before that, you are going to perform much poorer than most armies.

If you look at the new Stormcast Eternals from the soul wars set stuff for example, Evocators are dealing a good 6 damage per 100 points unbuffed each turn, sequitors 5 damage per 100 points unbuffed (both against 4+ save targets).

Morrsarr guard on the other hand, our strongest unit, are doing about 5,2 damage per 100 points unbuffed after they managed to pull off a charge and use their one-time-use volt weapons, without that its even less and you will end up having to spend lots of points to protect said eels.

So if you want a bit of a mix, I would suggest investing in 1 big unit of Morrsarr and mix it with an AOS or turtle, maybe throw in an allopex. My "fun" list is basically Volt, AOS, Tidecaster, Soulscryer, 10x thralls, 3x Shield eels, 9x morsarr, 1 allopex, and its quite a lot of fun to play :). I am going to paint up the turtle next week though and may replace the AOS with it and am likely to either get 3 more morsarr to make 2x 6 groups, or a 2nd shield group to replace the thralls, but thralls and reavers by themselves are going to perform badly (I had a 30 group of thralls + soulrender at first...), you'll lose like 10 to 15 of them after a 200 point Evocator units charges and attacks them and likely lose a ton after that to battleshock... It really isn't fun to face :(, not to mention you cannot get them in range.

[Manxs]

2 hours ago, Kugane said:

If you haven't made purchases yet, I sincerly advice to avoid the thralls and reavers and get eels instead. Also, instead of the aspect of sea, get the turtle or more tidecasters (you could convert a few) :), your list will be a lot more competitive! The thralls and reavers are way too fragile to be the backbone of your army, and the aspect of the sea does not deal enough damage to make him worth his point cost (neither is the storm). I wish I had figured this out BEFORE buying, painting and playing them.

The only things i have brought is the king a soulrender and tidecaster i also have a unit of thralls and one unit of revers 

 

but after looking at what you guys have said i was looking more in to this i will be looking to replace the tralls and the revers

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Nautilar

Leaders
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
- General
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Artefact: Arcane Pearl 
- Lore of the Deeps: Protective Barrier (Nautilar Tidecasters)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
- Artefact: Black Pearl 

Battleline
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)

Units
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (380)

Battalions
Royal Council (140)
Akhelian Corps (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

 

[Reuben Parker]

2 hours ago, Kugane said:

I understand your point and I think you mean that your heart is cold as in that you won't enjoy the list, but if you meant that you feel you are coldhearted fielding an overly competitive list, that is hardly the case, the way it stands right now is that Idoneth are only barely competitive in the sense that if you wait until turn 3 you can pretty much delete any unit, but before that, you are going to perform much poorer than most armies.

If you look at the new Stormcast Eternals from the soul wars set stuff for example, Evocators are dealing a good 6 damage per 100 points unbuffed each turn, sequitors 5 damage per 100 points unbuffed (both against 4+ save targets).

Morrsarr guard on the other hand, our strongest unit, are doing about 5,2 damage per 100 points unbuffed after they managed to pull off a charge and use their one-time-use volt weapons, without that its even less and you will end up having to spend lots of points to protect said eels.

So if you want a bit of a mix, I would suggest investing in 1 big unit of Morrsarr and mix it with an AOS or turtle, maybe throw in an allopex. My "fun" list is basically Volt, AOS, Tidecaster, Soulscryer, 10x thralls, 3x Shield eels, 9x morsarr, 1 allopex, and its quite a lot of fun to play :). I am going to paint up the turtle next week though and may replace the AOS with it and am likely to either get 3 more morsarr to make 2x 6 groups, or a 2nd shield group to replace the thralls, but thralls and reavers by themselves are going to perform badly (I had a 30 group of thralls + soulrender at first...), you'll lose like 10 to 15 of them after a 200 point Evocator units charges and attacks them and likely lose a ton after that to battleshock... It really isn't fun to face :(, not to mention you cannot get them in range.

Oh yeah I was meaning I wouldn’t like playing it rather than it’s OP (although I do think it would be good). Even with things like new SC and nurgle being a bit crazy  having an entire fast flying army is a huge weapon. Especially as if you get to turn 3 with even a reasonable number of eels left it’s probably a win due to Volturnos multi pumping 3 units.

 

Having proxied the big thrall ball style I do agree it’s fragile and actually frustratingly hard to make the healing work. Renders should be either both battkeshock phases or our hero phases. 

[Unter]

7 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

Oh yeah I was meaning I wouldn’t like playing it rather than it’s OP (although I do think it would be good). Even with things like new SC and nurgle being a bit crazy  having an entire fast flying army is a huge weapon. Especially as if you get to turn 3 with even a reasonable number of eels left it’s probably a win due to Volturnos multi pumping 3 units.

 

Having proxied the big thrall ball style I do agree it’s fragile and actually frustratingly hard to make the healing work. Renders should be either both battkeshock phases or our hero phases. 

Yea I really don't think it would work unless you absolutely played around it. Even then, it won't be competitive.

Closest I could get to competitiveness for Morphann would be the following:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Mor'Phann

Leaders
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)
Isharann Soulrender (100)
Isharann Soulrender (100)

Battleline
30 x Namarti Thralls (360)
30 x Namarti Thralls (360)
30 x Namarti Thralls (360)

Units
6 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (280)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 136



If you traded Sea for Storm you could switch the Ishlaen to Morsarr, but you might miss the bravery buff on the Thralls. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Unter

[Unter]

15 hours ago, Manxs said:

Hey guys i just got some deepkin stuff and this a list i am thinking of running what do you think

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Mor'Phann
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Isharann Soulrender (100)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony 
- Artefact: Black Pearl 
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)
- Artefact: Arcane Pearl 
- Lore of the Deeps: Arcane Corrasion
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Lore of the Deeps: Protective Barrier (Nautilar Tidecasters)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)

Battleline
20 x Namarti Reavers (280)
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)

Battalions
Namarti Corps (100)

Endless Spells
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95
 

I'm not sure what is doing your damage here, your thralls I guess? But kill them and everything else has pretty low output. Also 95 wounds is very fragile!

[Kugane]

8 hours ago, Manxs said:

The only things i have brought is the king a soulrender and tidecaster i also have a unit of thralls and one unit of revers 

 

but after looking at what you guys have said i was looking more in to this i will be looking to replace the tralls and the revers

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Nautilar

Leaders
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
- General
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Artefact: Arcane Pearl 
- Lore of the Deeps: Protective Barrier (Nautilar Tidecasters)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
- Artefact: Black Pearl 

Battleline
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)

Units
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (380)

Battalions
Royal Council (140)
Akhelian Corps (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

 

Looks good! Depending on your local meta you can always replace some stuff. I think this list will be fun to play

[Kugane]

7 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

Oh yeah I was meaning I wouldn’t like playing it rather than it’s OP (although I do think it would be good). Even with things like new SC and nurgle being a bit crazy  having an entire fast flying army is a huge weapon. Especially as if you get to turn 3 with even a reasonable number of eels left it’s probably a win due to Volturnos multi pumping 3 units.

 

Having proxied the big thrall ball style I do agree it’s fragile and actually frustratingly hard to make the healing work. Renders should be either both battkeshock phases or our hero phases. 

I actually started the army because I loved the look of the soul render and infiltration tactics. Soulscryer  + 30 thralls and a soul render seemed so cool on paper to deep strike, lol.

I think GW will update thralls at some point. At least I hope they do

[JackStreicher]

36 minutes ago, Kugane said:

I actually started the army because I loved the look of the soul render and infiltration tactics. Soulscryer  + 30 thralls and a soul render seemed so cool on paper to deep strike, lol.

I think GW will update thralls at some point. At least I hope they do

Pretty sure they won‘t

it‘s kind of sad that everyone only picks eels (well I got 3 of each for the style!). I can understand though that no one wants Reavers. They still never did anything for me.