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AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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1 hour ago, Reuben Parker said:

Jugger Lord

Lord on Daemonic Mount

Bloodsecrator

Aspiring Deathbringer (prenerf that dropped today)

3*5 chaos warrior

2*10 chaos knights

2*6 Juggers

As I said its a good list (175 4+ or better wounds, can cover the board and is quick) but still was lacking the gore pilgrim skull reaper / bloodletters mortal wound combos. Yet it could zone out the soulscryers and had easily enough power to go through the Thrall horde like it was wet tissue paper.

I am thinking of proxying more of a defensive eel list that gets to turn 3 then stacks attacks and wins next, see how that works.

Volturnos

Soulscryer, Lens of refraction

Aspect of the Storm, Could of midnight

Akhelian Corps

Leviadon

Allopex

6 * Morrsarr

3 * Ishlaen

10 Thrall

Low wound count and I know it has a couple of what would be seen as marginal choices in the Aspect of Storm and Leviadon. I think both though may work in what is a defensive counter punch list. Also interestingly due to the buffs built into the units some of the more popular enclaves (Dhom-Hain & Fuethan) may not be such a benefit. I was thinking of maybe even running Nautilar to assist in the first couple of rounds of defensive play.

Were the Knights or the Juggernauts a bigger problem? I haven't played against Khorne with my Deepkin, so this is pretty interesting.

I would think in a 2k list, that Thrall heavy could work because you would also have the points for a few mobility units against this list.  When you say Thrall heavy to do you mean you had 3+ units? When I say Thrall heavy I mean two units of 30 just as a reference.

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Hello, 

have a question about Volturnos Command Ability. The warscroll says:

"You can use this command ability if Volturnus is your general and the High Tide ability from the Tides of Death table applies for the battle round.

If you do so, pick up to 3 friendly IDONETH DEEPKIN units wholly within 18"of Volturnus. Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons

used by those units until your next hero phase."

If I apply this command ability with a unit of Akhelian Morrsarr Guard...the Fangmora Eels mount have +1 Attack for the 2 melee weapons of his warscroll (Fanged Maws and Lashing Tails)?.
 
The only reference on Core Rules are about Hero mount, not cavalry not command abilities:

- "Command traits have no effect on attacks made by a general’s mount unless noted otherwise". (page 17)

- "Artefacts of power have no effect on attacks made by a hero’s mount unless noted otherwise". (page 17)

Thanks

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1 hour ago, Sergi said:

Hello, 

have a question about Volturnos Command Ability. The warscroll says:

"You can use this command ability if Volturnus is your general and the High Tide ability from the Tides of Death table applies for the battle round.

If you do so, pick up to 3 friendly IDONETH DEEPKIN units wholly within 18"of Volturnus. Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons

used by those units until your next hero phase."

If I apply this command ability with a unit of Akhelian Morrsarr Guard...the Fangmora Eels mount have +1 Attack for the 2 melee weapons of his warscroll (Fanged Maws and Lashing Tails)?.
 
The only reference on Core Rules are about Hero mount, not cavalry not command abilities:

- "Command traits have no effect on attacks made by a general’s mount unless noted otherwise". (page 17)

- "Artefacts of power have no effect on attacks made by a hero’s mount unless noted otherwise". (page 17)

Thanks

The Mounts get the additional attacks aswell. And if you wanna visit cheeseworld, i think you can save your command points for the turn 3 high tide and use the ability for example 3 times. 3 additional attacks for 3 units with all their melee weapons!

I have a question aswell. Does the Fuethan enclave let you reroll the 1's to wound for Leviadon and Allopex mounts aswell? It would make sense (they are Akhelian mounts)?

 

Edited by markymarkka
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32 minutes ago, markymarkka said:

The Mounts get the additional attacks aswell. And if you wanna visit cheeseworld, i think you can save your command points for the turn 3 high tide and use the ability for example 3 times. 3 additional attacks for 3 units with all their melee weapons!

I have a question aswell. Does the Fuethan enclave let you reroll the 1's to wound for Leviadon and Allopex mounts aswell? It would make sense (they are Akhelian mounts)? 

 

I think Fuethan rule  doesn't apply with Allopex and Leviadon..they have the key MONSTER they not are a mount (have crew but principal model is a monster)

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9 hours ago, Caladancid said:

Were the Knights or the Juggernauts a bigger problem? I haven't played against Khorne with my Deepkin, so this is pretty interesting.

I would think in a 2k list, that Thrall heavy could work because you would also have the points for a few mobility units against this list.  When you say Thrall heavy to do you mean you had 3+ units? When I say Thrall heavy I mean two units of 30 just as a reference.

The knights were the worst as my reaping blows don’t trigger on them (3 wounds). Then when they charged with character buffs with three attacks each  2+2+ -1 2 damage then mount attacks as well.

I was testing full horde

Tidecaster 

2 scryer

3 render

Battalion

2* 30 thrall

2 * 10 thrall

2 * 10 reaver

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Sergi said:

I think Fuethan rule  doesn't apply with Allopex and Leviadon..they have the key MONSTER they not are a mount (have crew but principal model is a monster)

It’s very hard to tell though as there’s no keyword MOUNT nor is the word mount even mentioned on the warscrolls in description for the king or eels. Also why would key word MONSTER matter lots of models have mounts and MONSTER keyword  all beast claw raider , big guys, dragons etc etc 

Personally I would play they all receive it until there’s an FAQ that clarifies. The fuethan description even talks about them taming more savage allopexs. 

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15 minutes ago, kozokus said:

How did it went for you ?

Terribly, I got smashed. Really glad I proxied the army as there’s no way I am doing it now. On paper I thought it looked good but so many 32mm bases it’s hard to get good contacts. Plus if units charge it can be hard to keep the 30 man blob wholly within 12 of renders for healing. I think the list would still be good vs shooting / magic lists but it’s a big flop vs melee lists. 30 5+ wounds a lot of good melee units can do in one swing. 

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1 hour ago, Reuben Parker said:

Terribly, I got smashed. Really glad I proxied the army as there’s no way I am doing it now. On paper I thought it looked good but so many 32mm bases it’s hard to get good contacts. Plus if units charge it can be hard to keep the 30 man blob wholly within 12 of renders for healing. I think the list would still be good vs shooting / magic lists but it’s a big flop vs melee lists. 30 5+ wounds a lot of good melee units can do in one swing. 

I will also say, as some one who get a lot of calls and sees alot of complaints about x thing being as because they did well. There is an element of skill in the game. Both in yourself and your opponents. Dont count something out because you did poorly, but also dont over inflate your victories. It's hard to objectively figure ones skill and I'm not the one to do it. I'm also not bashing you as I'm not saying you are neither low skill or too tier. Just stating that and letting you add that to your own conclusions. 

 

Further more thralls have little bite. 32mm based mean their stat profile isn't power its just to make up for being on 32mm based. I'd run the cog in a thrall list so you can take up the table quickly. Use the 10man thral units to screen out your 30s. Also you NEED a unit or morrsarr in a thrall list as they can kill or nuetar threats to your thralls quickly. You need that leveled playing field because if they can't kill your thralls quickly you can regen them. 

 

No good ID list should be with out morrsarr

Edited by mmimzie
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1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

I will also say, as some one who get a lot of calls and sees alot of complaints about x thing being as because they did well. There is an element of skill in the game. Both in yourself and your opponents. Dont count something out because you did poorly, but also dont over inflate your victories. It's hard to objectively figure ones skill and I'm not the one to do it. I'm also not bashing you as I'm not saying you are neither low skill or too tier. Just stating that and letting you add that to your own conclusions. 

 

Further more thralls have little bite. 32mm based mean their stat profile isn't power its just to make up for being on 32mm based. I'd run the cog in a thrall list so you can take up the table quickly. Use the 10man thral units to screen out your 30s. Also you NEED a unit or morrsarr in a thrall list as they can kill or nuetar threats to your thralls quickly. You need that leveled playing field because if they can't kill your thralls quickly you can regen them. 

 

No good ID list should be with out morrsarr

Indeed very true on player skill and people not really being able to self evaluate. 

 

Saying that I believe having seen how the full horde list works on the table it’s not a good choice. 

 

Im not saying thralls are bad (I still think they can be very good)but Probably more used as a tool in a combined arms army rather than main battle line. As you yourself go on to point out endless spells and Morrsarr help. With that in mind I would probably drop the battalion and just run a couple of big blobs and renders. Which then still leaves 1080 for supporting cast. The issue then becomes is it still worth running Mor’Phannand if you run a different enclave then the renders become pretty weak. 

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All of the battalions are no gos from what I can tell. The more data I find, the more certain that we are KO, and will be an after thought as soon as the next book comes out. Which is ironic considering the IDK were probably the last nail in the coffin for semi-serious KO.

Competitively some regions will be lucky to have a "IDK guy" but I doubt the faction has much staying power. I should have been more concerned when the whole army only had one command ability but I was over optimistic. There just isn't enough in those pages to make IDK a strong faction, and the points costs are extremely conservative. I could forgive the Apolex, if the Levidon, and Eidolons were actually decent units competitively. But, as soon as I drop all pretence of taking either my lists and results got significantly better. 

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47 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Competitively some regions will be lucky to have a "IDK guy" but I doubt the faction has much staying power. 

There's one "IDK guy" in my gaming group. He runs 30 thralls, tidecaster, magic king, volturnos, 2x6 assault eels, soulscryer? (priest that comes in reserve), and a few endless spells from malign sorcery (the one that gives +2 inch movement). I find him to be one of the most tricky opponents to play against in our group, and every battle boils down to how good of an assault the eels get when they come out. It's a bit of a "YOLO" strategy, but the main issue is there are no soft targets - everything is pretty much a power unit that can hold its own against most everything in the game. It makes it difficult to find a good of attack into the army, as you're stuck between a rock and a hard place most of the time. It's not unbeatable, but it's definitely one of the more naturally competitive armies in our group (at least it seems to me).

Edited by Mark Williams
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5 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

All of the battalions are no gos from what I can tell. The more data I find, the more certain that we are KO, and will be an after thought as soon as the next book comes out. Which is ironic considering the IDK were probably the last nail in the coffin for semi-serious KO.

Competitively some regions will be lucky to have a "IDK guy" but I doubt the faction has much staying power. I should have been more concerned when the whole army only had one command ability but I was over optimistic. There just isn't enough in those pages to make IDK a strong faction, and the points costs are extremely conservative. I could forgive the Apolex, if the Levidon, and Eidolons were actually decent units competitively. But, as soon as I drop all pretence of taking either my lists and results got significantly better. 

I agree in most of the statement, our batallions are really really bad royal court is incredibly anti-sinergic with the soulscrier, namarti corps are just too many points threw in thralls and akelian corps has leviadon and allopex that cost a bit too much.

I don't understand why there isn't a batallion with eidolons that are the most visually attractive models of the faction.

On the eidolons underperforming, i play AoStorm frequently and i find him really strong, with the right set-up, in a lot of things.
AoSea on the other side is really underwhelming 440 points are not justified by his spell list or combat capabilities 

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Mor'phar and Nautilus are basically unplayable. I can't see any of our battalions being worth it, which is a shame, as it'd be great to sneak in both a cloud of midnight and the ethereal amulet to cover a King and an Eidolon

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Quick shout-out for how easy it is to paint eels quickly using coloured primer sprays as a base, all-over Zandri Dust and then a top-down colour of your choice, e.g. Macragge Blue in this case.

(Note spraying down from above can be a bad angle to tilt the can at, so what worked best for me was tacking them onto the edge of some balsa and holding them vertically so the can could be held upright and sprayed horizontally - note also it's better to tack 'em onto the edge of something as you don't get backspray onto the underside, as can happen when they're stuck to a broader base.)

 

WP_20180725_09_55_02_Pro.jpg

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8 hours ago, Gose said:

I agree in most of the statement, our batallions are really really bad royal court is incredibly anti-sinergic with the soulscrier, namarti corps are just too many points threw in thralls and akelian corps has leviadon and allopex that cost a bit too much.

I don't understand why there isn't a batallion with eidolons that are the most visually attractive models of the faction.

On the eidolons underperforming, i play AoStorm frequently and i find him really strong, with the right set-up, in a lot of things.
AoSea on the other side is really underwhelming 440 points are not justified by his spell list or combat capabilities 

AoSea is basically my MVP every game.  You just have to play him aggressively, I see a lot of people holding him back and playing him like he's just a caster, if you do that then he is not even close to worth his points.

My last game against a Kroak list he basically absorbed the first 2 rounds of combat while holding an objective and debuffed my opponents entire army. Abyssal darkness + mystic shield makes him one of the very few units that gets a 2+ rerollable save so he can be very durable, toss a sword of judgement on his fishes and he is a hero/monster killer as well.

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So here is the thing I cam to realise with especially with the Eidolon. In most cases, I was sitting there wishing he was just 6 more eels. which is like just over half his cost, but still I would have been happier for it.  Originally I had planned to take him instead of the King and I would have found a way to make up the difference in point. But, after using Volturno's CA once, I realised no amount of magic could make up for +3 attacks on 3 units  during high tide. 

The terrible battalions have so many run on issues, it distils 3 pages of artifacts down to like 1 or 2 items, even though there are probably like 6 or 7 good ones. It puts a cap on how many cps we can get, which is probably fine considering we only have 1 CA. Our combat units rr charges for the most part, but I'd like the ability to not have to horde the 1 cp I get each turn. The biggest for me in an aelf army, is starting every game on the rhythm my opponent sets because I have 12 drops or something crazy. 

My ultimate conclusion is that they simply pointed too many support pieces as if they were the army, and now the army basically lives or dies by its ability to end the game turn 3, as it basically can't absorb loses after that if you need to chase a game.  Which doesn't seem fun for either player but at a tournament only playing 12-15 rounds does keep you fresh/

Now that being said it is an objective game, so you the truth is you need to get a commanding lead by the bottom of 3. This is where the extra flood tide, and boost in effectiveness in flood tide for Futhaen has been strong. But, I have had a head start on my peers on building for AoS2, I haven't managed to fight a true built for AoS army yet, just a bunch of hybrids. I'm terrified by the prospect of playing Nighthaunt, as I can barely handle the resilience of SCE at this point, and NH push out more mortal wound damage.

 

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IWell, i  am starting an army of fishelves, with this 1000 points

Morphann enclave

Render

Lotann

30 thrall 

2x10 reaver 

3 morrsarr. 

 

The idea is to have a bulk of infantry  thrall And heroes to menace The opponeNT while reaver tale objective And morrsarr is launched ti surgical strike. 

Then i'd like  to expand more or less that way: 

Aosea

2nd render

Scryer

20 thrall 

Some endless for 80 leftover points

 

Maybe i could swap 10 reaver for 10 thrall, so to end with 30+30 thrall bulk. Any idea/suggestion?

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Played my first game with 1250 points couple of days ago. 

Eidolon Of Mathlann, Aspect of the Strom

Akhelian King 

6 Islaen Guard

3 Morsarr Guard

3 Morsarr Guard

Worked really well against flesh eater courts.  I suppose adding Soulscryer would make the list even more viable. I have 20 Thralls, Aspect of the Sea, 10 Reavers and a Leviadon aswell so i can easily modify the armies. I really liked how fast and hard-hitting the eels are, and also very durable. 

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I don't understand why some of you think that faction has to have playable battalions ? I've been playing with DoK since they were released with great success and run battalion only few times and now no more. Deepkins aren't one trick army like KO, there is a lot of stuff and they can play objectives games really well. Also they do not have much bad match-ups. From my experience only DoK are terrible match-up for Deepkins but it's far from obvious. 

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22 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I don't understand why some of you think that faction has to have playable battalions ? I've been playing with DoK since they were released with great success and run battalion only few times and now no more. Deepkins aren't one trick army like KO, there is a lot of stuff and they can play objectives games really well. Also they do not have much bad match-ups. From my experience only DoK are terrible match-up for Deepkins but it's far from obvious. 

I dont know that anyone is saying you have to have battalions, but it is nice to have the flexibility. 

Personally i think Nighthaunt is a pretty bad matchup for us, they basically ignore half of our on charge buffs(Rend bonuses). And take long enough to die that its pretty hard to get multiple charges off against them, granted i've only played 2 matches against new nighthaunt so it might just mean I need to make some adjustments still.

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I posted this on the Deepkin facebook page today.  Pay no attention to the D/WD columns because that's still a work in process.  It currently doesn't work the way I intended and it doesn't make much sense as is.  Obviously the sheet doesn't take into account many intangibles like special rules.  The MW damage from the murder turtle isn't in there because it's a replacement effect and would be a significantly more difficult formula and for a 16.7% chance, I couldn't care less.

Updated ID worksheet.xlsx

Edited by thundrchickn
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2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I don't understand why some of you think that faction has to have playable battalions ? I've been playing with DoK since they were released with great success and run battalion only few times and now no more. Deepkins aren't one trick army like KO, there is a lot of stuff and they can play objectives games really well. Also they do not have much bad match-ups. From my experience only DoK are terrible match-up for Deepkins but it's far from obvious. 

That isn't a very useful comparison. DoK and IDK have one thing in common, the aelf keyword. I've seen your list I know you understand this.

IDK are actually a pretty marginal army, and tend to struggle against any army that doesn't have an attachable weakness. Something like low unbinds, or any army that I'd untradionally hardy. Things like redundant saves, healing, respawn. Nighthaunt are possibly the worst faction to roll up against in several sceneries. But nurgle is bad as well.

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20 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

That isn't a very useful comparison. DoK and IDK have one thing in common, the aelf keyword. I've seen your list I know you understand this.

IDK are actually a pretty marginal army, and tend to struggle against any army that doesn't have an attachable weakness. Something like low unbinds, or any army that I'd untradionally hardy. Things like redundant saves, healing, respawn. Nighthaunt are possibly the worst faction to roll up against in several sceneries. But nurgle is bad as well.

Interesting that you called out Nighthaunt and Nurgle specifically as being bad matchups. Out of the 3 people I play with on a regular basis (at least once per week) one plays Nighthaunt, the other plays Nurgle, and the third has a bunch of armies and changes what he plays a lot. The Nighthaunt and Nurgle guy I win against most of the time but lost to the third guy's old Empire army.

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Imo the IDK are a cool looking and fun army to play.

the issues I see as a casual are the following:

• Reavers are utterly useless. Their Missle Weapons do nothing, their melee also does nothing. They cost too much since all they can do is look real cool.

• The Battalions are ******. Most need an Allopex (which costs too much and does too little). We‘d need simple battalions: Bat 1: Akhelian King, 2 Eels, 1 thrall (20 or more) ++1 Save for the Thralls if they‘re wholly within 12“ of the eels. Bat 2: 1-2 Allopex, Tidecaster, 1-2 Reavers. +1 to hit with missle weapons if the enemy is within 9“. Etc.

• the EAotS costs too much

• How about a range-focused conclave?

• we lack command abilities 

 

Edited by JackStreicher
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