AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[ThalmorRepresentative]

I'm sure everyone here has seen all the possible varieties of Akhelian Lists, but I thought I'd throw mine on here to see what people think of it. 

I have a game against our hated nemesis: Hedonites, this weekend. Appreciate any advice

 

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin

- Mortal Realm: Ghyran -

Enclave: Fuethan

LEADERS

Akhelian King

- General -

Command Trait : Born From Agony -

Bladed Polearm -

Artefact : Ghyrstrike

Volturnos, High King of the Deep

 UNITS

6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard

6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard

3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard

2 x Akhelian Allopexes - Razorshell Harpoon

BEHEMOTHS Akhelian Leviadon

BATTALIONS Akhelian Corps

TOTAL: 1980/2000

EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1

[Acid_Nine]

44 minutes ago, ThalmorRepresentative said:

I'm sure everyone here has seen all the possible varieties of Akhelian Lists, but I thought I'd throw mine on here to see what people think of it. 

I have a game against our hated nemesis: Hedonites, this weekend. Appreciate any advice

 

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin

- Mortal Realm: Ghyran -

Enclave: Fuethan

LEADERS

Akhelian King

- General -

Command Trait : Born From Agony -

Bladed Polearm -

Artefact : Ghyrstrike

Volturnos, High King of the Deep

 UNITS

6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard

6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard

3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard

2 x Akhelian Allopexes - Razorshell Harpoon

BEHEMOTHS Akhelian Leviadon

BATTALIONS Akhelian Corps

TOTAL: 1980/2000

EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1

May I ask what the reasoning behind using both a king and volturnous is?

 

also hope what I brought up doesn’t get buried as a discussion🤐

[ThalmorRepresentative]

8 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

May I ask what the reasoning behind using both a king and volturnous is?

 

also hope what I brought up doesn’t get buried as a discussion🤐

Hi Acid_Nine, basically it's just redundancy. One Akhelian King can only be so many places on the board. Having two would also my forces freer movement, and still have the buffs from the Kings that they could definitely use. It's also useful in games where only wizards and heroes with artifacts score objectives. Plus, two Kings on the battlefield, I find, can completely turn combats on their head. 

Whenever my Akhelians flub in combat, sometimes a pair of Kings can completely change things around!

There's not too many reasons behind it :). I just like the idea of a pair of kings :).

[Drofnum]

12 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

So, does anyone have any trouble cycle charging as much as I do? Kinda hard to plan around a hit and run type attack when the enemy can potentially double turn you and either steam roll the guys already in combat, or just charge the unit that just retreated. In a perfect world I could see being able to cycle charge, but to do that really requires every thing to be in the right place and for the enemy to sit still.

With my list I'm pretty much always going first due to high drops, so I generally use the first turn to set up charges for the next turn.  I use Ishlaen to take the charges on the bottom of turn 1, they almost always live until turn 2 due to low tide and ignoring rend.  Turn 2 I like to go second if possible to set up for high tide, either way though I try to make sure I charge something that will die for sure to my Morrsarr, I usually bring on whatever I have in the sea turn 2 as well. 

I dont really cycle charge though, I tend to ensure I can just kill whatever I charge.  If I cant kill it I wait til a buffed up Turn 3 to really engage if possible, if that isnt possible I will usually feed them a screen of Ishlaen or Thralls which both do a decent bit of damage if given the chance to hit first. A double turn on turns 2/3 isnt really that big a deal either since high tide will mitigate a lot of your losses.

[Thebazilly]

15 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

So, does anyone have any trouble cycle charging as much as I do? Kinda hard to plan around a hit and run type attack when the enemy can potentially double turn you and either steam roll the guys already in combat, or just charge the unit that just retreated. In a perfect world I could see being able to cycle charge, but to do that really requires every thing to be in the right place and for the enemy to sit still.

I'm quite interested in this discussion as someone who only has one game under my belt. Positioning and troop movement is of vital importance in Age of Sigmar, and I'd really appreciate some tips from others who play IDK. I especially want to hear about how people set up for High Tide - do you charge Turn 2 with the run+charge? Do you wait until Turn 3 to charge for the bonuses on the Akhelian Guard?

It seems like to get proper cycle charges you'd need to have a retreat+charge ability like the Storm Eidolon.

[Acid_Nine]

2 hours ago, Thebazilly said:

I'm quite interested in this discussion as someone who only has one game under my belt. Positioning and troop movement is of vital importance in Age of Sigmar, and I'd really appreciate some tips from others who play IDK. I especially want to hear about how people set up for High Tide - do you charge Turn 2 with the run+charge? Do you wait until Turn 3 to charge for the bonuses on the Akhelian Guard?

It seems like to get proper cycle charges you'd need to have a retreat+charge ability like the Storm Eidolon.

Usually I charge on turn 2, if not turn one. I should probably wait longer before I commit everyone, but something inside me is so against letting a vulnerable 340 point unit sit there and do absolutely nothing till turn 3. I have to hold them back on turn 1 and remind myself I need to set up charges. It is a bit more difficult to do that though, as the opponent could ruin all your plans by getting a single model within 3 inches before they had a chance to move.

 

ideally ideally, you charge turn one, survive, retreat turn 2 and then charge again turn 3. But since I am trying to be patient then it’s a bit harder to do that.

 

if their mounts had attacks like demigryphs then I would be a bit easier about it, and call me insane but I would consider a mount profile like those guys have if it meant having rend and a chance for mortal wounds whenever instead of only once per game

 

then again, I could be insane and not know how to play the idoneth, which is a distinct possibility...

Edited January 22, 2020 by Acid_Nine

[Drofnum]

Use soulscryers to keep that 340 point unit safe. I've moved to having 2 scryers now, 1 takes 6 Morrsarr the other takes 2 units of 3 or 1 unit of 3 Morrsarr and 2 sharks, I like the 2 sharks with the point changes for hitting things that will survive a 3 eel charge.

Bring the scryer on turn 2 or 3 depending on the situation and you really dont have to worry about that unit getting hit and killed before they do their thing. I know some of you have had issues with scryers but I think thats more about just learning when and where to deploy them.

[Acid_Nine]

7 hours ago, Drofnum said:

Use soulscryers to keep that 340 point unit safe. I've moved to having 2 scryers now, 1 takes 6 Morrsarr the other takes 2 units of 3 or 1 unit of 3 Morrsarr and 2 sharks, I like the 2 sharks with the point changes for hitting things that will survive a 3 eel charge.

Bring the scryer on turn 2 or 3 depending on the situation and you really dont have to worry about that unit getting hit and killed before they do their thing. I know some of you have had issues with scryers but I think thats more about just learning when and where to deploy them.

 That is a fairly good point! My only fear is that my opponent will be savvy enough not to stay within charging distance of the table edge. But, your idea is quite a good one, I may only use the one for now, and practice using him until I got the idea down. Right now i’m Trying a royal council list, and it’s a hard choice to keep him on the table to use the command ability, or to outflank him. (Bringing the eidolon and having him do rituals in the back with the tide caster seems like a really good way to help the eidolon out )

[whispersofblood]

On 1/22/2020 at 4:13 AM, Acid_Nine said:

May I ask what the reasoning behind using both a king and volturnous is?

 

also hope what I brought up doesn’t get buried as a discussion🤐

The King is an excellent combat unit, and a hero for Places of (Arcane) Power.

He fights about as well as his points would suggest, better than 3 morrsorr worse than 6. Doesn't have to worry about battleshock, can be pretty tanky at a 3+/5+, does repeat mw, and has high rend. He's actually a very good piece all on its own.

Volturnos is the best high tide buffer, as he is most efficient, so lets you move away from 6+ man units back to a more MSU style in an Akhelian Corp (I almost always build Dhom-hain or Fuethan), letting you spread your mw output around the board, and since he buffs 3 units per CP you can turn your spare King into a a insanely powerful killing unit while spreading your dmg on Morrsarr units. 

[Fulkes]

I've been puzzling over this over a while, but I'm reaching out to the more experianced since I'm not quite clicking it: is there a way to run a Namarti heavy list? I keep looking at Mor'Phann and Namarti Corpsbut I feel like I've been going down the wrong road there.

[Thebazilly]

22 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

I've been puzzling over this over a while, but I'm reaching out to the more experianced since I'm not quite clicking it: is there a way to run a Namarti heavy list? I keep looking at Mor'Phann and Namarti Corpsbut I feel like I've been going down the wrong road there.

I was tempted by the same idea, but ultimately decided not to go with it due to my love for the Akhelian King model and a desire to avoid painting dozens of infantry models.

 

I think you could make it work, even though it's not a top tier competitive list. I would probably throw in an Aspect of the Sea and Lotann to pump up the Namarti some more.

[Koradrel of Chrace]

Ha ha ha Lotann is possibly one of the worst warscrolls in the game!  He's so bad that he's become the term for the worst warscroll in any given Battletome.

As for the Namarti Corp, there's someone running one in the LVO.  He's taking two squads of 9 Morrsarr with them, along with a Soulscryer and a Tidecaster general.  I'd say he's probably running the strongest Deepkin list in the tourney.

[Fulkes]

1 minute ago, Koradrel of Chrace said:

Ha ha ha Lotann is possibly one of the worst warscrolls in the game!  He's so bad that he's become the term for the worst warscroll in any given Battletome.

As for the Namarti Corp, there's someone running one in the LVO.  He's taking two squads of 9 Morrsarr with them, along with a Soulscryer and a Tidecaster general.  I'd say he's probably running the strongest Deepkin list in the tourney.

And despite being the worse he's one of the few models that specifically buffs Namarti. Which likely says more about Namarti honestly

On a different note, that's an interesting list (though a bit eel heavy but what can you do when they support the most of the army at this point?).

[Koradrel of Chrace]

You need eels for damage.  Even MSU eels runs 15-18 of them usually.  That list is honestly probably the most efficient list Deepkin can field.  The list that shocked me was the lady who's running a Royal Court battalion.  I don't think I've ever seen one in a comoetitve setting, I'm interested to see how it does.

[Koradrel of Chrace]

Well Deepkin, you were a nice spot to dip my toes into AOS.  I bid you farewell as I ride off into the sunset with the Lumineth Realm-Lords!

[Fulkes]

I full get that the eels are the crutch of every list, which is a large part of my frustration. I feel like the peices are there but they just don't fall into place like they should.

Guess I'll be leaving Deepkin alone a little longer.

[Acid_Nine]

23 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

I full get that the eels are the crutch of every list, which is a large part of my frustration. I feel like the peices are there but they just don't fall into place like they should.

Guess I'll be leaving Deepkin alone a little longer.

I think I can speak for a vast majority of Deepkin players when I say that we all are a bit frustrated with deepkin. I love eels and I'm still frustrated that there are times when an eel unit just doesn't feel like enough, or it requires super meticulous planning to wield it when every other army can just steamroll forward without too much thought. It's a hard army to play around to be sure, and I can see it getting harder the more units are released. It is a book that's two years old and after 2019 you can really feel the age creeping up on it. 

[Fulkes]

4 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

I think I can speak for a vast majority of Deepkin players when I say that we all are a bit frustrated with deepkin. I love eels and I'm still frustrated that there are times when an eel unit just doesn't feel like enough, or it requires super meticulous planning to wield it when every other army can just steamroll forward without too much thought. It's a hard army to play around to be sure, and I can see it getting harder the more units are released. It is a book that's two years old and after 2019 you can really feel the age creeping up on it. 

I think I'll just have to keep testing the waters with every points update (which has helped, I mean Sharks at least look playable now) and keep my fingers crossed for a future army release that gets the army into 2.0 proper instead of the 1.5 realm it lives in.

[Tiberius501]

Hey guys, I have a quick question that’s probably dumb, but I am dumb. My friend tried out Idoneth today in a small game and he used Volturnus’ command ability in High Tide to give 3 units wholly within 18” the +1 attack. It doesn’t specify that it can only be used once per unit in a turn, and I had a look in the FAQ and it didn’t say to add that to the ability. So he used it on the same 3 units 3 times (for 3 CP he had saved from turn one to turn 3) and hilariously demolished me. We were both laughing pretty hard at how insane it was and seems sort of broken. Are we doing it wrong? If not are Idoneth all about that turn 3? 

Thanks in advance  

[Acid_Nine]

3 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

Hey guys, I have a quick question that’s probably dumb, but I am dumb. My friend tried out Idoneth today in a small game and he used Volturnus’ command ability in High Tide to give 3 units wholly within 18” the +1 attack. It doesn’t specify that it can only be used once per unit in a turn, and I had a look in the FAQ and it didn’t say to add that to the ability. So he used it on the same 3 units 3 times (for 3 CP he had saved from turn one to turn 3) and hilariously demolished me. We were both laughing pretty hard at how insane it was and seems sort of broken. Are we doing it wrong? If not are Idoneth all about that turn 3? 

Thanks in advance  

Unless I'm as blind as tyrion, I cannot find the rules of one in the gaming book. But, I believe that this is kosher.  He gave the units extra attacks by spending CP's, only picked out the same units he was buffing. All in all I say he got the perfect high tide, and I commend him for his forward thinking!

And yea, turn 3 can be absolutely brutal if you plan for it. I nearly killed katakros from full wounds to zero on a hide tide with a unit of six eels, and it was only a misread debuff that stopped that (and ****** amazing death saves from my opponent.)

[Tiberius501]

Thanks, Acid_Nine. So it seems like every game you play as Idoneth, you’ll be doing the same kind of thing: sending in chaff to hold off the enemy while you hold the eels back until turn 3, then you charge them in and do insane dmg? Sounds unfortunately like a bit of a one trick pony sort of play style.

[Acid_Nine]

17 minutes ago, Tiberius501 said:

Thanks, Acid_Nine. So it seems like every game you play as Idoneth, you’ll be doing the same kind of thing: sending in chaff to hold off the enemy while you hold the eels back until turn 3, then you charge them in and do insane dmg? Sounds unfortunately like a bit of a one trick pony sort of play style.

not all the time. Remember the enemy can still move too, and sometimes the battle works out where you have to get stuck in at an opportunity and "Waste" high tide, or your opponent does a charge and you hadn't spaced your guys out properly and he manages to tie everyone up. it sucks a lot, but when it works it feels really, really good!

[Tiberius501]

Alright that’s good to know. Me and my friend both really like the look of the Idoneth (though I’ve decides to wait and get the new Lumineth) but he was a bit disappointed with how they played. But if there’s room for more variation in their play style in other games (and I’m sure it won’t be as brutal next time now I know what can happen) then they should be cool. 

We’re keen on some cool battles between the golden child (Lumineth) and the rejected sibling (Idoneth).

[Koradrel of Chrace]

I like how the Idoneth play honestly.  Reminds me of old school Dark Eldar.  And honestly, as long as you aren't playing in a super heavy environment, most builds you come up with should be fine.  We have effectively two gaming groups in my area: a more relaxed group dominated by three(!) Dissposessed players, and then a more tournament focussed group that includes a Triple Keeper Slaanesh player, a hardcore Skaven player, and more recently a Petrifex player.  As long as you know which group you're going to be playing, you can be ready to go.  Are eels still going to be needed for both groups?  Maybe, but when I'm playing the relaxed group, as long as I have one unit of six Morrsarr I find I'm doing all right, and can play around with other units (except maybe Lotann).

[Olmdebil]

What is the wording on the shooting thingi? If there are 2-3 units to one of my units... Does my unit shoot the nearest unit? Or do I have to split the attacks depending which model of my unit is closer to one of the deepkin units? So whole unit or single models? 

Thank you