AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Seihoff]

Hi everyone.

I bought the Akhelian King kit some days ago and I have some doubts about the best weapon choice he could get.

Is there any kind of consensus about the Polearm vs Greatsword choice? Is it better to build him as Volturnos?

Thank you very much.

[DragonRider]

3 hours ago, Seihoff said:

Hi everyone.

I bought the Akhelian King kit some days ago and I have some doubts about the best weapon choice he could get.

Is there any kind of consensus about the Polearm vs Greatsword choice? Is it better to build him as Volturnos?

Thank you very much.

Hello,
I literally just build the mount from the kit (using Uasalls head as it is much cooler) and was going to ask the same question. After doing some research, it seems that Volturnos shines brighter with his larger range command ability, larger range re-roll ability and the weapon is also very strong. I just prefer the Akhelian King model with the helmet and perhaps spear much more. 
Could I get away by playing Volturnos with a helmet on if I build rest of the model like Volturnos so I can play either Volturnos or Akhelian king at times? I'd imagine that I wouldn't get away with the spear. Don't want to buy another kit just to play both.

Edited July 18, 2019 by DragonRider

[Seihoff]

3 minutes ago, DragonRider said:

Hello,
I literally just build the mount from the kit (using Uasalls head as it is much cooler) and was going to ask the same question. After doing some research, it seems that Volturnos shines brighter with his larger range command ability, larger range re-roll ability and the weapon is also very strong. I just prefer the Akhelian King model with the helmet and perhaps spear much more. 
Could I get away by playing Volturnos with a helmet on if I build rest of the model like Volturnos so I can build either Volturnos or Akhelian king at times? I'd imagine that I wouldn't get away with the spear. Don't want to buy another kit just to play both.

I'm on the same boat. The problem with the Polearm is that Volturnos doesn't have an option to equip it. And I don't like the head of Volturnos, so I think I will finish using Uasall head and any of the helmet options and play the model as Volturnos or an Akhelian King with Greatsword depending on the list.

[DragonRider]

4 minutes ago, Seihoff said:

I'm on the same boat. The problem with the Polearm is that Volturnos doesn't have an option to equip it. And I don't like the head of Volturnos, so I think I will finish using Uasall head and any of the helmet options and play the model as Volturnos or an Akhelian King with Greatsword depending on the list.

This is what I am probably doing as well. Do you use Volturnos body and replace only the head?

[whispersofblood]

I've gone back to the King build in a few test games. Basically I play control with Reavers and Ishlaen, and then turn 3 charge as much of the opposition's army with 12 Morrsarr as possible.

Its... Fine I guess. Without Voltaic blast it wouldn't work though.

[tripchimeras]

11 hours ago, Fisren said:

Curious how people are faring against newer battletomes (meta lists) nowadays. My last couple games with Deepkin have been a struggle (still come out with a win, but extremely close games). 

(Pre- GHB 2019), I was running a 2k list with:

Volturnos (General)

Soulrenderer

Tidecaster

2 x 9 morsarr eels

2 x 10 namarti

2x3 ishlaenn eels

So first of all the lists you mentioned you going against, are both near the top of the meta (or at least they were pre faq's and GHB 2019), and neither is a super advantageous matchup for us to begin with.  Fyreslayers turn into a bit of a slog-fest from what I have seen, which appears to be what you experienced.  Slog fests are not ideal for a glass cannon army like ours, but eels are fairly durable, and our superior mobility definitely gives us an advantage.  You won the game, so I wouldn't exactly say you didn't fair very well, and you won it exactly how I think most armies are going to win it against fyreslayers when they do, running containment on the deathstar, and out maneuvering them to take big objective leads they can't make up with such limited units/mobility.   There is a great battle report from Riptide GT (the last major event Deepkin finished first in that is listed on Honest Wargamer) of the Deepkin player playing a similar fyreslayer list to the one you played, to a similar result (though his eels I don't think got quite so destroyed, because I believe he got the charge in).  He basically had to hold up the deathstar while rest of his army claimed objectives.  You can find the battle report if you are interested on the Dimensional Cascade youtube channel.   I also think you illustrate here in your post, another reason why taking some thralls are not a bad idea, when you face something your morrsarr cannot just smash through having those extra bodies to help you win a prolongued objective game can be invaluable.  So concluding my prolonged response, sounds like you played it correctly, and while it may have been frustrating you couldn't deel with his deathstar, you won, and that's the beauty of strategy in AOS, you aren't always going to be able to win a toe to toe fight, but you don't need to. 

Did you win the game against DoK?  I may have misread but didn't see it mentioned.  Again I think we get spoiled by Morrsarr sometimes.  As your first game showed, we don't always need to pound opponent into dust to win.  I think DoK is also a significantly worse matchup for us then Fyreslayers, I think we have few good tools to deel with morathi, and tall those extra saves mean our eels are almost always going to get stuck in with them in prolongued combats, which is exactly what we want to avoid.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your troubles surviving to turn three to have something for vulturnos to buff, and not really having a good way forward to get eels to make it to turn 4.  This is the exact reason why I am strongly in the flip-tide camp for what our best build is.  It is just far more versatile, and gives us a lot more options for these very scenarios where we run into hard as rock opponents our eels are not going to be able to blow through like they normally do.  I think the king/vulturnos command ability is largely a trap for us, I think it is overkill 80% of the time and the other 20% when its not, getting your unit in tact to turn 3 and hitting turn 3 on the charge to boot, is quite the difficult task.  I think instead in those matchups instead of trying to bang our heads against the rock wall, we should be using our superior mobility to play avoidance and just try to out objective opponent.  This is where things like setting up screens, bottlenecks, and sticking things like Ishlaen into hopeless combats that they none the less have a shot of surviving a few rounds become the name of the game.  Its hard to commentate on another's game without seeing the circumestances but I think the one thing you may have tried differently, was not sticking the morrsarr in so quickly.  I think we are very tempted to do so (I know I am), but taking the time to do some quick math beforehand and realizing there is a high probability they are going to get stuck in, and will not be charging again anytime soon may mean you don't make that charge even if there is something juicy there.  Morrsarr can hold/take objectives just like everything else.  Though in this case it may have been worth it for the hag kill, but maybe once you kill the hag it would have been worth retreating even though its a lost round of combat?  Covering their retreat with a lesser unit might have in the long run given you more resources idk.

In general though I really don't think we are in a bad spot, and while your games may have been frustrating they actually both sound quite close and evenly matched, which is exactly where we want to be against these books at the top of the meta(I think Fyreslayers are about a coinflip maybe with a slight advantage towards us, and DoK are maybe a little more advantaged towards DoK, but again we have options, at least before GHB 19, hard to say with new changes how it will all play out).  So I'd say you are doing well, I think maybe the takeaway is try to use flip-tide and see if you feel better with that (also soulrender probably not best use of 80pts unfortunately, as much as I enjoy the model and wish its ability worked as intended).

 

 

[tripchimeras]

6 hours ago, Nerdkingdan said:

SO I would really like to get more out of the thralls, than I am, and I'm willing to keep trying on it.  

So questions, are you saying thralls should be 20 models, not 10?   Am I required to run Mor'phann in this plan?   I am pretty sure the 10 man reavers are better than the 10 man thralls in a lot of situations, especially against some of the large blob units with no save.   10 man reavers with the extra speed and run reroll are doing a fair job of speed bumps for my eels, but looking for what I might be missing outside of my usual opponents having lists where thralls are sub optimal, I should still get more out of them I think.

 

I only own 30 thralls, and have never tried more then 40 (proxied a unit).  The one or two games I have taken a unit of 20, they have  gotten in each others way, struggled with staying within bubbles, and with the 1" range been too large to get optimal attack power in combat.  Anecdotally, the battle reps I've seen where large thrall units were taken, and from talking to other deepkin players, I have also not heard of large units getting a lot of success.  Certainly you can try it, but I would stick with min units.  If you were taking units of 20-30, yes I think you probably are going to want Mor'phann, and multiple soulrenders but I have only tried a morphann list in a 1k game (the time I tried 40 thralls) and it was a bit of a disaster for me.

The reason I like the 10 man thralls over the 10 man reavers (no need to choose 1 or the other though in a flip tide list at least, take 2 reavers and 1 thrall if you'd like), is because when they are holding an objective more power is needed to route them out.  They also are chronically under-estimated, which is a strategic boon, and when they are not under-estimated, it is again good, because your opponent becomes weary of getting into combat with them especially on the ASF turn.  I also think they are a good compliment to the Morrsarr, I like to time charges between them on turn 2 (can be tricky to pull off) often to some spectacular results where I whipe out both the whatever the Morrsarr charge, and remove the unit that could have locked them up on the opponents turn as well.  When this is not possible I use them exactly like I would reavers, and again while they are not as good at it, personally I think their viability in combat makes up for it. 

I haven't used reavers as much though, by no means think they are bad, just like thralls more.  So if you have more success with them, why not stick with it if you like the results.  I think the big thing with their shooting for me is that in my experience the things there shooting is going to do damage against, Thralls are going to do much more in combat.  Maybe if you max out flip tide battle line on reavers though, there are some character sniping opportunities that make it worth the switch idk.  I don't use reavers nearly as much, because of my "theory hammer" on it, and theory hammer only gets you so far.  So you very well could be right that, especially against your list of opponents, reavers are going to be more effective for you. 

 

EDIT: Honestly talking with you about this, has reminded me that the 2 reaver units that have mostly been collecting dust on my shelf need a little more use.  Looks like my next couple of games are going to have 2 units of reavers replacing 2 of my thralls, and I will see how I feel again after that.

Edited July 18, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Aelven supremacy]

3 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

I only own 30 thralls, and have never tried more then 40 (proxied a unit).  The one or two games I have taken a unit of 20, they have  gotten in each others way, struggled with staying within bubbles, and with the 1" range been too large to get optimal attack power in combat.  Anecdotally, the battle reps I've seen where large thrall units were taken, and from talking to other deepkin players, I have also not heard of large units getting a lot of success.  Certainly you can try it, but I would stick with min units.  If you were taking units of 20-30, yes I think you probably are going to want Mor'phann, and multiple soulrenders but I have only tried a morphann list in a 1k game (the time I tried 40 thralls) and it was a bit of a disaster for me.

The reason I like the 10 man thralls over the 10 man reavers (no need to choose 1 or the other though in a flip tide list at least, take 2 reavers and 1 thrall if you'd like), is because when they are holding an objective more power is needed to route them out.  They also are chronically under-estimated, which is a strategic boon, and when they are not under-estimated, it is again good, because your opponent becomes weary of getting into combat with them especially on the ASF turn.  I also think they are a good compliment to the Morrsarr, I like to time charges between them on turn 2 (can be tricky to pull off) often to some spectacular results where I whipe out both the whatever the Morrsarr charge, and remove the unit that could have locked them up on the opponents turn as well.  When this is not possible I use them exactly like I would reavers, and again while they are not as good at it, personally I think their viability in combat makes up for it.  I haven't used reavers as much though, so if you have more success with them, why not stick with it if you like the results.  I think the big thing with their shooting for me is that in my experience the things there shooting is going to do damage against, Thralls are going to do much more in combat.  Maybe if you max out flip tide battle line on reavers though, there are some character sniping opportunities that make it worth the switch idk.  I don't use reavers nearly as much, because of my "theory hammer" on it, and theory hammer only gets you so far.  So you very well could be right that, especially against your list of opponents, reavers are going to be more effective for you.

I’m a big convert to Reavers having tried both, despite initially viewing the Thralls as a no-brainer  winner.  My lists always include 2 x 10 of reavers with only 1-2 units of Thralls.   Reason being that both units die in combat pretty much instantly (unless you strike first with the Thralls) whilst Reavers you can continually apply chip damage turn after turn outside of combat (and therefore survive).  Their 8” move with rerollable run allows you to get within 9” of a lot of target enemy units for the 30 dice machine gun (remember to reroll those ones on flood tide!!) Also with scenarios with mid table objectives a 8” move with rerollable run is better to grab those objectives than a 6” move with no reroll run.   Versus death frenzy skaven being able to fire 30 shots at them outside of pile in range is valuable.  With Thralls you have to get dirty (and die)

[tripchimeras]

1 minute ago, Aelven supremacy said:

I’m a big convert to Reavers having tried both, despite initially viewing the Thralls as a no-brainer  winner.  My lists always include 2 x 10 of reavers with only 1-2 units of Thralls.   Reason being that both units die in combat pretty much instantly (unless you strike first with the Thralls) whilst Reavers you can continually apply chip damage turn after turn outside of combat (and therefore survive).  Their 8” move with rerollable run allows you to get within 9” of a lot of target enemy units for the 30 dice machine gun (remember to reroll those ones on flood tide!!) Also with scenarios with mid table objectives a 8” move with rerollable run is better to grab those objectives than a 6” move with no reroll run.   Versus death frenzy skaven being able to fire 30 shots at them outside of pile in range is valuable.  With Thralls you have to get dirty (and die)

Interesting, yeah I can see that.  I do think I would always want at least 1 unit of thralls, as is I almost always use 1 unit as a suicide bomber, unless the opponent has nothing they can bomb well and have had success doing that.  The second 2 units usually are objective holders/backfield units unless I need them for screening/speedbumps and while there have been a couple of times their killing has been the only reason I have held an objective, you guys def are convincing me to give reavers more play.  So definitely may switch out my second and third units of thralls next few games for reavers and see how it goes.  Still maintain, getting back to the original point that prompted this, that 10 man thrall units are great haha!

[Maddpainting]

Im actually looking at a crazy list idea, yeah it doesn have very hard punch, but the idea is to hit 1-2 units a turn and just out play/move the opponent with hard to kill units and units you cant reach that gets you. The more i play with Reavers the more i like them, they always do well for me, and i love the Turtle + Ishlaen.

Feuthan (turn 1 run and shoot, and eels/turtle gets re-rolls to hits of 1 for the bites/tails/fins 
Tidecaster - Tide of Fear- Lord of Storm - Bauble Buoyancy
Lotan (re-roll hits of 1, and Brav)
Soulscryer (Rituals and extra charge/outflank)
Ishlaen Guard x6
Ishlaen Guard x3
Ishlaen Guard x3
Namarti Reavers x20
Namarti Reavers x20
Namarti Reavers x10
Namarti Reavers x10
Akhelian Leviadon

The man idea is keep 1 unit of Eels (6 man) near turtle with some Reavers, a unit of 10 + 3 eels for scouting/flanking, Rituals takes away Fly or Cover, Eels still melee and turtle can also, but not to early.  20 man Reavers only deals 15-18 wounds(if you re-roll 1's its 18) but for a unit that can not be shot at or charged that can move 8+D6 and still shoot turn 1 isnt that bad at all, you also have enough shots to kill key targets like a KoS, or some smaller heroes turn 1. With a Turtle to hit hard turn 2 (Mine always does well for some reason).

Edited July 19, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Aelven supremacy]

6 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Im actually looking at a crazy list idea, yeah it doesn have very hard punch, but the idea is to hit 1-2 units a turn and just out play/move the opponent with hard to kill units and units you cant reach that gets you. The more i play with Reavers the more i like them, they always do well for me, and i love the Turtle + Ishlaen.

Feuthan (turn 1 run and shoot, and eels/turtle gets re-rolls to hits of 1 for the bites/tails/fins 
Tidecaster - Tide of Fear- Lord of Storm - Bauble Buoyancy
Tidecaster - Steed of Tides
Tidecaster - ? (mostly for Riptide)
Ishlaen Guard x6
Ishlaen Guard x3
Ishlaen Guard x3
Namarti Reavers x20
Namarti Reavers x20
Namarti Reavers x10
Namarti Reavers x10
Akhelian Leviadon

The man idea is keep 1 unit of Eels (6 man) near turtle with some Reavers, a unit of 10 + 3 eels for scouting/flanking, Rituals takes away Fly or Cover, Eels still melee and turtle can also, but not to early.  20 man Reavers only deals 15-18 wounds(if you re-roll 1's its 18) but for a unit that can not be shot at or charged that can move 8+D6 and still shoot turn 1 isnt that bad at all, you also have enough shots to kill key targets like a KoS, or some smaller heroes turn 1. With a Turtle to hit hard turn 2 (Mine always does well for some reason).

I’d be interested in seeing that perform.  I see Ishlaen as the unit to charge key opposing units and hold them in place whilst the Reavers machine gun.   I would question using Reavers in 20 man units rather than 2x 10s though. Easier to fit units of 10 between 3” and 9” from enemy units.  Especially if you want to screen the in between with Ishlaen Guard.  

[Maddpainting]

I changed it, i found that Lotan works better in the list, Sorry didnt edit it fast enough.

I also think that 10mans might be better, I might change them to all 10mans, with Lotan i can have 2 units in range easier also we, or do 1 unit of 20 with Lotan.

So something like:

Tidecaster - Tide of Fear- Lord of Storm - Bauble Buoyancy
Lotan (re-roll hits of 1, and Brav)
Soulscryer (Rituals and extra charge/outflank)
Ishlaen Guard x6
Ishlaen Guard x3
Ishlaen Guard x3
Namarti Reavers x20
Namarti Reavers x10
Namarti Reavers x10
Namarti Reavers x10
Namarti Reavers x10
Akhelian Leviadon

Edited July 19, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Aelven supremacy]

21 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

I changed it, i found that Lotan works better in the list

There’s a sentence I never thought I’d hear 😂

[Maddpainting]

7 minutes ago, Aelven supremacy said:

There’s a sentence I never thought I’d hear 😂

Re-roll 1's on a potential 180 shots for 80pts (tho its more like 60-90 shots will get re-rolls) and its a cheap hero for some missions. I think i'll move an artifact to the soulscryer, Thermalclock or something.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Aelven supremacy]

Just now, Maddpainting said:

Re-roll 1's on a potential 180 shots for 80pts (tho its more like 60-90 shots will get re-rolls) and its a cheap hero for some missions. I think i'll move an artifact to the soulscryer, Thermalclock or something.

You get that anyway turns 1,3 and 5 in Fuethan though.   But he is cheap now so I’m interested to see how it goes!

[Maddpainting]

 

7 minutes ago, Aelven supremacy said:

You get that anyway turns 1,3 and 5 in Fuethan though.   But he is cheap now so I’m interested to see how it goes!

Very true, but without him i cant put the Soulscryer in, i could go back to 3 Tidecasters, IDK what do you think?

Edited July 19, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Aelven supremacy]

10 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

 

Very true, but without him i cant put the Soulscryer in, i could go back to 3 Tidecasters, IDK what do you think?

I think 2 tidecasters is more than enough (almost too many already!) so try Lotann  and the Soulscryer

[whispersofblood]

There isn't much point trying to stock up on magic defence, beyond maybe a spellweaver or incantor for the auto unbind. The new meta will have magic armies with min 5 casts, and most likely 6 or more. The points are better spent on doing what IDK do well, which is fighting. Also the IDK spells are not really all that appealing anyway. 

My fix for Namarti is make them both 100, cap their unit sizes at 20, and leave them be. 

[Maddpainting]

9 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

There isn't much point trying to stock up on magic defence, beyond maybe a spellweaver or incantor for the auto unbind. The new meta will have magic armies with min 5 casts, and most likely 6 or more. The points are better spent on doing what IDK do well, which is fighting. Also the IDK spells are not really all that appealing anyway. 

My fix for Namarti is make them both 100, cap their unit sizes at 20, and leave them be. 

My first purpose was just using what is best potential, if i wont use other heroes abilities (IDK if i ever want to use Soulscryer ability) then why not take a caster? extra deny and cast and it helps with a couple missions. 

[Reinholt]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

My first purpose was just using what is best potential, if i wont use other heroes abilities (IDK if i ever want to use Soulscryer ability) then why not take a caster? extra deny and cast and it helps with a couple missions. 

Because the points come at the cost of more other stuff (Eels, etc.)

Also, why do you think you would not use the other hero abilities? I have found the deep striking to be clutch for getting units to where they want to be when playing against Idoneth.

[Maddpainting]

14 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

Because the points come at the cost of more other stuff (Eels, etc.)

Also, why do you think you would not use the other hero abilities? I have found the deep striking to be clutch for getting units to where they want to be when playing against Idoneth.

Not saying Deepstrike isnt good, i love it. But for this theory list it isnt needed, i need saturation on a couple units, i dont have that hammer unit to DS and kill off a unit right away.

[tripchimeras]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

Not saying Deepstrike isnt good, i love it. But for this theory list it isnt needed, i need saturation on a couple units, i dont have that hammer unit to DS and kill off a unit right away.

I could see usecase for 6 ishlaen + turtle maybe?  I think the big thing is, if the first thing you do in deployment is declare the soulscryer is going into the warp your opponent has to deploy like he's about to get things shoved down his or her throat, even if you don't end up taking anything with him.  Its not the most powerful combo on earth, but I certainly wouldn't want a 2+/3+ unmodifiable unit of ishlaen bottlenecking my entire battleline for 2-3 turns while my opponent goes around claiming all the objectives and filling me up with arrows.  

The other thing to remember is, just because you put them in reserve doesn't mean you have to do an aggressive alpha strike.  There is value in having that flexibility in deploying 2 important pieces wherever you want on the board 1st or second turn too.   Why not warp them immediately to an objective they might not have been able to fly to turn 1, or wait to see how deployment plays out completely and who gets first turn etc, before committing arguably your most important hold units or whatever.  Just because the combo is usually used to transport death to the enemies doorstep, doesn't mean its the only useful use for it.  Remember that deepstrike also just means your opponent has another calculation to make on his early turns that is largely out of his control; that is good for you.

[Acid_Nine]

I myself am almost done with my Dhom hain akhelian core list and I am stoked to play it more, and to see how good I can get when there is ITC tourney champions in my local area. I would love to see how good it is, but I think I may pick up some thralls too with warcry coming out. 

 

Now... what to paint besides eels

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Looking at the new Cypher Lords models, does anyone else think they'd be great with some kitbashing for Idoneth? Lop off the braid, stick it on their shoulders, switch off their head for a Namarti head, and boom, variant Thralls. Use the heads along with the spare heads from the Akhelian Guard kit to headswap some other allied-in heavy infantry (which will likely get better when the new Cities codex drops). Headswap the Thrallmaster model with some other head, and you have a new Soulscryer or Tidecaster! Some of the Splintered Fang models could be decent for conversions as well, with their helmets and scaled armour

 

What do you guys think? 

[Drofnum]

1 hour ago, Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll said:

Looking at the new Cypher Lords models, does anyone else think they'd be great with some kitbashing for Idoneth? Lop off the braid, stick it on their shoulders, switch off their head for a Namarti head, and boom, variant Thralls. Use the heads along with the spare heads from the Akhelian Guard kit to headswap some other allied-in heavy infantry (which will likely get better when the new Cities codex drops). Headswap the Thrallmaster model with some other head, and you have a new Soulscryer or Tidecaster! Some of the Splintered Fang models could be decent for conversions as well, with their helmets and scaled armour

 

What do you guys think? 

Definitely some good conversion candidates in there.  I was thinking of swapping the nets from some of the Fangs onto some models, not sure which yet but I feel like Idoneth would be using nets.