AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[woolf]

7 minutes ago, Rhetoric said:

I’m not disappointed by the changes, but the one thing Deepkin lack is a CA.  We still ONLY have the High Tide CA from Volturnos/Akhelian King.  There’s definitely an opportunity to pump the CA on a unit of multiple sharks, plus their +1 attack from the new ability on the scroll.  

sure I agree with you that sharks work to pump (as does any unit really) my comment was just that you will likely find it more effective to pump a unit of eels as they have many more attack profiles / point cost. ie 6 eels (340 pts) get +18 attacks as they have spear/tail/bite each where 3 sharks (330pts) only get +6 attacks since the only get 1 bite and one hooks etc each. and hence from an efficiency point of view eels still beat sharks in the "turn 3 all out attack volty build"

again the entangle ability is good though and I think akhelian corps battalion got much better now as both shark and turtle has been buffed

[Elves are the best]

7 minutes ago, woolf said:

sure I agree with you that sharks work to pump (as does any unit really) my comment was just that you will likely find it more effective to pump a unit of eels as they have many more attack profiles / point cost. ie 6 eels (340 pts) get +18 attacks as they have spear/tail/bite each where 3 sharks (330pts) only get +6 attacks since the only get 1 bite and one hooks etc each. and hence from an efficiency point of view eels still beat sharks in the "turn 3 all out attack volty build"

again the entangle ability is good though and I think akhelian corps battalion got much better now as both shark and turtle has been buffed

Yeah but sharks are cooler

 

[Dankboss]

The net only needs to hit, right? Sharks will be able to control fights incredibly well, especially in a unit of 3 where they'll have 3 shots. They won't need to worry much about getting hit back if they can pin targets so easily, which they can.

[Orchid89]

Im thinking about starting a 1000 point Deepkin army, i have always loved the way they look.

Should I get the new Bloodsurf Hunt (2??) + a SC box? 

or how would you suggest I start? 

 

My fav models are actually Eidolon and the Leviadon but I figure i should start with something simpler.

I am not a huge fan of Namarti tbh.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Orchid89

[DocKeule]

3 hours ago, Elves are the best said:

Yeah but sharks are cooler

 

And more than that they reliably offer rend. 

Are there any details on the new battalion yet? In the "First look" Video from Mini Wargaming (IDK ca. 53:20 - 1;04:00) it sound like you have to chose the Ionrach enclave to use the new battalion (ca. 01:03:00) which would be a real bummer because without using allies that enclave sucks.

Edit:

OK, from the looks in this video (from ca 41:10) the Akhelian King from this battalion has to take the command trait from the Ionrach enclave but the enclave of the army does not seem to be predetermined. But since the King should be a named character I am not sure if Volturnos can be put in the battalion.

Edited November 7, 2020 by DocKeule

[DocKeule]

2 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

Im thinking about starting a 1000 point Deepkin army, i have always loved the way they look.

Should I get the new Bloodsurf Hunt (2??) + a SC box? 

or how would you suggest I start? 

 

My fav models are actually Eidolon and the Leviadon but I figure i should start with something simpler.

I am not a huge fan of Namarti tbh.

The price for the set is pretty fair. You get one model for free compared to buying them one by one. Most long time player will already have a king and a lot don't need a second one but if you start a new army it is a bargain.

Edited November 7, 2020 by DocKeule

[woolf]

2 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

Im thinking about starting a 1000 point Deepkin army, i have always loved the way they look.

Should I get the new Bloodsurf Hunt (2??) + a SC box? 

or how would you suggest I start? 

 

My fav models are actually Eidolon and the Leviadon but I figure i should start with something simpler.

I am not a huge fan of Namarti tbh.

the start collecting box is pretty good imo, you probably want some thralls for battle line and some eels anyways. unless you want full on eel spam out the gate 

[Acid_Nine]

Anyone know if the sharks kept their scything fin attack? Cause if so, then holy carp that would be even better.

[JackStreicher]

6 hours ago, HollowHills said:

the loss of the fin attacks

I missed out on that info 😵

[HollowHills]

22 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

Anyone know if the sharks kept their scything fin attack? Cause if so, then holy carp that would be even better.

 

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

I missed out on that info 😵

Yes, the jaws are only 2 damage now too. So their melee potential damage is now 12 (6 from bites and 6 from weapons) which used to be 13 but the damage is much more reliable now. The max size unit also got reduced down to 3 (was previously 4). 

[DocKeule]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

I missed out on that info 😵

Looks like that is now part of the "Blades" Attacks. They only have 2 melee profiles from what I could see on the videos.

[Allornone]

9 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Yes, the jaws are only 2 damage now too. So their melee potential damage is now 12 (6 from bites and 6 from weapons) which used to be 13 but the damage is much more reliable now. The max size unit also got reduced down to 3 (was previously 4).

It was 12 even before. 5 blades, 4 fins and 3 bite. 

[Orchid89]

1 hour ago, woolf said:

the start collecting box is pretty good imo, you probably want some thralls for battle line and some eels anyways. unless you want full on eel spam out the gate 

Thanks Im not really a fan of the Namarti models so i think ill try and use eels.

can i use eels and not be a full on eel army?

 

 

[woolf]

2 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

Thanks Im not really a fan of the Namarti models so i think ill try and use eels.

can i use eels and not be a full on eel army?

 

 

sure but if you don't want namarti you need to get the akhelian king so that you can make eels your battleline. the new shark+king box could be a good starting point for you + get a couple of eel boxes. but really when you just get started my take would probably be to just buy what you find cool, the deepkin book doesn't have that many unit options in the end of the day...

[Rhetoric]

7 hours ago, woolf said:

sure I agree with you that sharks work to pump (as does any unit really) my comment was just that you will likely find it more effective to pump a unit of eels as they have many more attack profiles / point cost. ie 6 eels (340 pts) get +18 attacks as they have spear/tail/bite each where 3 sharks (330pts) only get +6 attacks since the only get 1 bite and one hooks etc each. and hence from an efficiency point of view eels still beat sharks in the "turn 3 all out attack volty build"

again the entangle ability is good though and I think akhelian corps battalion got much better now as both shark and turtle has been buffed

I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just saying large units of Sharks may be useful.  Deepkin don’t do well in protracted combat.  But with sharks -2 rend in their bites with more attacks, they might be able to stay in a fight and still be relevant.  

[woolf]

2 hours ago, HollowHills said:

 

Yes, the jaws are only 2 damage now too. So their melee potential damage is now 12 (6 from bites and 6 from weapons) which used to be 13 but the damage is much more reliable now. The max size unit also got reduced down to 3 (was previously 4). 

they also changed the blood in the water ability so shark gets another bite rather than rr charge. and the shooting attack got improved, so overall dmg is higher it seems

[Kitsumy]

Pretty dissapointed with the idoneth part.

Lorewise we get our most important relic stolen in our face, then we go to get it back, get stomped and then morathi take pity and give us the now wasted and broken relic, and we go back to hide under a stone under the sea lol

Statswise. Shark lost 4 dmg and won 3, so lost some dmg( only if use the more bite ability he will do rly sligthy better dmg) and got 10p increase.... So the allready bad unit now is even worse, great.

Melee avatar, now he does 3 average less dmg than before, but gained 5fnp and the aura is sligthy better to others( useless to him now) going from rerolls wounds of 1 to +1 to wound. And 30p decrease only. So 330p for a hero doing 10dmg with an +1 to wound aura? Not worth and personally i liked the prior version that did 13 or 14 dmg with sligthy worse aura.

Mage avattar won 5fnp, and can reroll both cast not only 1, go down 50p. Still absolutely useless, it dont do any dmg, and the mage part is worth like 200p maximun, so till it go down to 250-280p will keep being useless.

Turtle, his average save got worse, 3 always or degrading 2-5, i liked the always 3 more. Dmg went up from around 14 to 17, and aura got better, for more points. This is the only real buff of all book, and it is pretty good, dont think it will get a spot on tourneys eel lists, but will be cloose.

Aand thats it. When the tome was the oldest one with dok and nurgle, and was in dire need of a new 2.0 one, with every unit reworked, proper magic, relics, etc etc this book is a kick in the balls for us, since im sure we will have to wait like 3 years more for the new 3.0 tome, so 6 years with same old tome and this lackluster mini update..

[Drazhoath]

6 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Pretty dissapointed with the idoneth part.

Lorewise we get our most important relic stolen in our face, then we go to get it back, get stomped and then morathi take pity and give us the now wasted and broken relic, and we go back to hide under a stone under the sea lol

Statswise. Shark lost 4 dmg and won 3, so lost some dmg( only if use the more bite ability he will do rly sligthy better dmg) and got 10p increase.... So the allready bad unit now is even worse, great.

Melee avatar, now he does 3 average less dmg than before, but gained 5fnp and the aura is sligthy better to others( useless to him now) going from rerolls wounds of 1 to +1 to wound. And 30p decrease only. So 330p for a hero doing 10dmg with an +1 to wound aura? Not worth and personally i liked the prior version that did 13 or 14 dmg with sligthy worse aura.

Mage avattar won 5fnp, and can reroll both cast not only 1, go down 50p. Still absolutely useless, it dont do any dmg, and the mage part is worth like 200p maximun, so till it go down to 250-280p will keep being useless.

Turtle, his average save got worse, 3 always or degrading 2-5, i liked the always 3 more. Dmg went up from around 14 to 17, and aura got better, for more points. This is the only real buff of all book, and it is pretty good, dont think it will get a spot on tourneys eel lists, but will be cloose.

Aand thats it. When the tome was the oldest one with dok and nurgle, and was in dire need of a new 2.0 one, with every unit reworked, proper magic, relics, etc etc this book is a kick in the balls for us, since im sure we will have to wait like 3 years more for the new 3.0 tome, so 6 years with same old tome and this lackluster mini update..

Sry....but no😂

Sharks are a lot better now! They shoot with one attack more WITH rend! So they get their ability triggered more reliable (+1 Attack with Jaws). So they have 4 Attacks with rend 2. Thats realy huge in the current meta with all these 2+ save dudes (I look at you OBR or Seraphon).

[DocKeule]

I think you are a little to tough in GW here. Not sure what you expected of course but I think the changes are decent. It is not the complete rework the IDK will eventually need because the powercreep is spiraling pretty quickly but it might bring them back into the upper mid-tier and bring some models other than eels into the mix.

 

6 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Lorewise we get our most important relic stolen in our face, then we go to get it back, get stomped and then morathi take pity and give us the now wasted and broken relic, and we go back to hide under a stone under the sea lol

Well the IDK never where the big dogs in the yard taking enemies in open battle. 

And in general...well lorewise none of the new factions was much to write home about was it? Let alone that the writers haven't had any ideo apart from giving any new race a resource that their whole existence is built on (urgold, grave sand, souls etc.) to be THE motivation to be at war all the time. The writing has been lazy since day one.
 

6 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Statswise. Shark lost 4 dmg and won 3, so lost some dmg( only if use the more bite ability he will do rly sligthy better dmg) and got 10p increase.... So the allready bad unit now is even worse, great.

I you are only looking and melee you could see it that way. But with more rend-attacks the output will probably be the same or even slightly better. Getting rend on the harpoon could also be a big improvement. Sharks will be good at sniping smaller heroes thus costing your opponent buffs. The "entanglement" is potentially huge if you position you units well (especially against hordes).

If you use the new batallion you have a much bigger chance that your king is still around at high tide without having to keep him at the sideline for the first two rounds. (Only thing there I am not happy about is that I don't expect Volturnos to be able to be part of the battalion).

 

6 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Melee avatar, now he does 3 average less dmg than before, but gained 5fnp and the aura is sligthy better to others( useless to him now) going from rerolls wounds of 1 to +1 to wound. And 30p decrease only. So 330p for a hero doing 10dmg with an +1 to wound aura? Not worth and personally i liked the prior version that did 13 or 14 dmg with sligthy worse aura.

+1 to wound is much more helpful that the re-roll of ones and a 18" bubble instead of 9" no covers half the table. Between him an the Leviadon Thralls now potentially can attack on +2 +2.

 

6 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Mage avattar won 5fnp, and can reroll both cast not only 1, go down 50p. Still absolutely useless, it dont do any dmg, and the mage part is worth like 200p maximun, so till it go down to 250-280p will keep being useless.

For me he did decent in combat but that is not his main role to begin with. The lore of magic need some rework in my eyes. The main ergument for the Aspect of the Storm always war the bravery for the Namarti and the de-buff spell. 
 

6 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Turtle, his average save got worse, 3 always or degrading 2-5, i liked the always 3 more. Dmg went up from around 14 to 17, and aura got better, for more points. This is the only real buff of all book, and it is pretty good, dont think it will get a spot on tourneys eel lists, but will be cloose.

The save is degrading but only after nine wounds or so. So the average save has only got down slightly and with the ignoring rend mount trait it will be around a little longer I would assume. The new +1 to save aura is huge. The cover did not apply half of the time because IDk are a mobile army that wants to be charged often. At least some mortal wounds on the charge are nice also. Having two bites instead of one and 3 wounds fix will give it a more reliable output. 

 

6 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Aand thats it. When the tome was the oldest one with dok and nurgle, and was in dire need of a new 2.0 one, with every unit reworked, proper magic, relics, etc etc this book is a kick in the balls for us, since im sure we will have to wait like 3 years more for the new 3.0 tome, so 6 years with same old tome and this lackluster mini update..

Where is this conclusion based on? Yes the IDK would need more re-work to play in the first league again. But it was kind of clear that that would not happen in this campain book(s).

But I don't see any reason to assume that there will be no new battletome for years. Broken Realms will be a series of books and all factions will get some minor updates in there as fas as I understand. Many players seem to assume the campaign is the prelude to AOS 3.0 coming next summer. IDK will then be one of the first factions to get a new battletome. Yes they have not gotten one after the edition change but the first book has pretty clearly been written with the new edition in mind. They were on par with the first new books three years ago but fell behind with later releases.

[HollowHills]

This update is great news, there is honestly no reason to feel negative about it. None of the units that were already good got changed and everything that did get changed is better than before.

I'm just happy now that I can include sharks, turtles and eidolons in games without feeling like I'm deliberately playing with a hand tied behind my back.

I also think we'll see at least some of these units start to feature in tournament lists. 

Plus I'd rather get a mini update like this now than have a book coming out right before the new edition like last time. It meant we got a weird mix of old style and new style rules writing and gradually became worse throughout the edition.

[DocKeule]

Getting worse happens to every faction und it is spiraling to fast lately in my opinion. Every other new unit now hits on 2 (occasionally), spits mortal wounds and has aftersaves. Good news is that they might soon have nowhere to go in that direction. Can't have anything hit in+1 +1. But that is a different topic all in itself.

The only thing I am not yet sold at is the battalion. My first instinct was to get seven sharks in total (two full units for the new battalion and one extra for the Akhelian Corps) but I will wait until I have to wording on if it has to be a generic king of if Volturnos could be used as well.

Edited November 9, 2020 by DocKeule

[Tizianolol]

Guys where i can see all changes for IDK?

[DocKeule]

Page 88 of this discussion.

[Elves are the best]

Has anyone tried the Nautilar double Leviadons battalion ?

 

[Sonnenspeer]

57 minutes ago, Elves are the best said:

Has anyone tried the Nautilar double Leviadons battalion ?

 

In theory I like the idea, but buying and painting two turtles - nö Thanks