AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[DocKeule]

I would agree on most of that but if we look at the positives:

- If the battalion relies on the keyword we would have improved the chances to keep the generic king and Volturnos alive until the thirt round to buff the cavalry greatly without having to have him sit out for most of the first two rounds. (At least I often had the problem that my king was gone by high tide.)

- The +1 on attack roll withe the barbed hook and blades sounds nice. We will have to see how the warscroll is edited. If these attacks also get a little rend and/or the wound roll is made easier that would make sharks more viable and maybe move the meta a little bit away from the eels at least.

My biggest hope is on the re-work for the turtle (I think a +1 on saves instead of the cover would do the deal) and the Eidalons. But we will see about that. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by DocKeule

[DocKeule]

As an exercise in mental gymnastics: What would you wish for as changes in the IDK warscrolls to bring the sushi-elves up to speed?

 For me:

Namarti Thralls: With 2" reach in melee they would be pretty much fine for me. That would make bigger units (with a much bigger chance to bring models back to) a more valuable choice by getting more models into close combat. Right now you either run small units and often have nothing left to bring models back to or run bigger units and only have few models close enough to hit.

Namarti Reavers: Kind of OK for what they are but a little overpriced. If the points where reduced a little lower they would be alright to have them sit on objectives. If you do the math they don't do too much until they are closer than 9" to their target (and even then wir 4+ 4+ and no rend).

Eels: Well, let's not be greedy. They are alright as they are.

Sharks: Rend and + 1 damage on the harpoon shots (same for the Leviadon) and rend for the the attacks made by the  crew (and maybe 3+ 3+) and they would be good to go especially with the new battalion.

Turtle: Again I think the harpoon launchers should have rend and more damage than a simple bow. But the main issue is the bubble from the drums. For a highly mobile army that should run and charge all the time cover just doesn't cut it. Make it +1 on save-rolls or reroll failed saves or -1 to hit on enemies and we are off and running. 

Soulrender: Let him bring back models in every battleshock phase, give him a little better save (he is amoured after all) and he would be OK. 

Soulscryer: If he could appear anywhere on the table more than 9" away from any enemy model with the "finder of ways" ability he would be fine.

Tidecaster: Main problem in my eyes is that the whole IDK magic lore is weak and repetitive. The other thing is (as well as with the King/Voltunos)  she should be able to use her command ability regardless if she is the general. The IDK have too fews buffs to begin with (at least compared to the current trends). 

Eidalons: I think they are OK but overpriced. I can't really say what I would change (curious to see what GW changed however) but I would bring them just down a little in points

King/Volturnos: Pretty much alright other than in my opinion they should be able to use their command ability regardless if they are the general and be able to use it at the beginning of any battle phase in the hight tides round.. It is a once per game buff. Other armies get much much more than that every round.

In general: Most newer armies spam mortal wounds like crazy AND have protections/aftersaves against that so the IDK need something in that departmentt to get even

Battalion: 
Namarti Corps: Allow more that on Soulrender
Ahkelian Corps: Is fine
Royal Council: No well thought through. The king needs to be mobile and not stay around two dudes on foot. Maybe have some kind of (flexible) combination of the Ishran heroes and have the Soulkscryer take them in his wayfinder deployment for free.
Phalanx: Scrap that. Nobody play games that large regularly and for most players the extra-models would be barely aver fielded. Make it one of every battalion and maybe a little more expensive and it would be OK for that extra trade it brings.

 

[Elves are the best]

Lots of buffs in the latest article

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/05/broken-realms-morathi-unleashed/

Improved the Leviadons ability, better shooting and allopexes are way better. Also the Leviadons drums adds 1 to hit rolls for namarti now

[Rhetoric]

Allopex are looking really attractive now!  

[Icarion]

They also mentioned that Leviadons have a 2+ save now if unharmed.

 

[Kitsumy]

Why are much better? Only 1 bite more only if the unit was wounded that turn is laughable. It should have been +1 bite base, and skill giving rerolls de wound per example.

Only real change was net arpoon, not being able to pile in is HUGE, since sharks will be able to charge a full unit of 40 skelletons from a corner, and only 1 or 2 will be able to hit back.

 

Turtle change was obvious, and i have been spaming GW mail with it, cover was as useless for idk as +1000 to cast for dearfs. So ok change there, and it affect sharks now since it is for 8w or less, unless sharks get 1w more now. The baldy effect isnt great but isnt so bad, i could have a unit of archers around the turtle shoting 30 shots at 3/4 so 10ws from his shotting and 3 more from turtle. Then both unit could even finish them at melee.

 

The save change need more info, since it means the save will downgrade. If it will be 2+ 3+ and 4+, ok. But if it can be downgraded to 5 or 6 it will be a huge nerf for him.

 

King traith is nuts! Huge boost to his dmg for free, nice

 

I expect mage avatar get a +1 or +2 to cast minimun, and being able to reroll casts without losing anything. And average dmg increased from 6 to 13 minimun( so double his dmg) or points deopped to 250 or so.

[Elves are the best]

3 damage attacks if you bring three sharks that's and extra three three damage attacks that makes them scarier to opponents.

Yep net harpoon great now I'm pretty sure it has rend as well now because the Leviadons one did.

[DocKeule]

Well, looks like I called some of that stuff (and I swear I didn't know the article when I wrote earlier today.)

I am really happy with the changes so far.

The Leviadon will be back in a lot of game and maybe the buff also helps the Namarti along. Thralls hitting in 2+ is nothing to sneeze at.

The new profiles for the harpoon launchers fit well in my view (2 damage would have been nice though)

[JackStreicher]

Oh well Namarti Reavers will bu utterly dangerous if they fire at something within the leviadion range

Let's hope the Lev stay at a 3+ save though...
I love!

Edited November 5, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Elves are the best]

They said in the article that it starts at a +2 save 

[JackStreicher]

4 minutes ago, Elves are the best said:

They said in the article that it starts at a +2 save 

you
are

right


HYPE!!!!

 

I am the new @KingBrodd (almost) for this release XD

 

[woolf]

I think the change to the range weapons on the shark is good too. now there is actually some tradeoff to be considered, i.e. higher range and a bit more dmg as they increased to 4 attacks vs the entangle ability which seems pretty good although quite unreliable with only 1 attack

[DocKeule]

15 minutes ago, woolf said:

I think the change to the range weapons on the shark is good too. now there is actually some tradeoff to be considered, i.e. higher range and a bit more dmg as they increased to 4 attacks vs the entangle ability which seems pretty good although quite unreliable with only 1 attack

You can put up to four sharks in one unit.

[woolf]

hmm on the entangled ability, do you guys think a wounding hit is required or is it enough to just make a successful hit roll?

[JackStreicher]

48 minutes ago, woolf said:

hmm on the entangled ability, do you guys think a wounding hit is required or is it enough to just make a successful hit roll?

It says hit

[DocKeule]

The wording suggests a hit is enough even if it doesn't wound.

[Elves are the best]

Any ideas how they've changed the eidolons

 

[Allornone]

IDONETH CHANGES

King Traits
>1d6 MW instead of 1d3 when rolling a 6 for the horn
>+1 claws and tail attacks
>-1 to hit to models within 3"

Leviadon Traits
>Ignore -1 rend
>+1 MW from charge
>15" range for the drum

Allopexes
>Lost MONSTER keyword
>Max size of 3
>+10 points
>14" movement, up from 12"
>Arpoons are 4A 3+/3+/-1
>Nets stops units from piling in
>Melee profiles completely changed, now they are
>Blades 6A 3+/3+/-/1
>Bite 3A 3+/3+/-2/2 +1A if near wounded units or units that have lost a model that turn

Leviadon
>+30points
>NOW NEED 9 WOUNDS INFLICTED TO START DEGRADING HOLY ******
>2+ Armor save, degrades up to a 5+
>Arpoons are 8A 3+/3+/-1
>1d3 MW on a 2+ against near units when it charges, 1d6 MW instead against units with 1W profile
>Drum now gives +1 save and +1 to hit for namarthi against enemy units near the leviadon
>Melee profiles completely changed, now they are
>Spear and Blades 6A 3+/3+/-/1
>Bite 2A 2+(degrades)/2+/-2/3 does 3 MW on a 6 to hit, 6MW instead against a Monster
>Fins are 4A 2+/3+/-1/4(damage degrades)

Eidolon of storm
>-30points
>Ignore wounds on a 5+
>Now +1 attack instead or rerolling 1 to hit on a charge
>+1 to wound on Idoneth within 18"
>+1 to hit against a Hero within 3" that has 8 or less wounds

Eidolon of Sea
>-50 points
>Ignore wounds on a 5+
>Reroll ALL cast, dispell and unbind rolls
>+3 bravery aura now 18" range, up from 9".

[SleeperAgent]

Eidolons might actually see play now. Having a 5+ shrug really helps a ton.

[mrteige]

you guys think we could see some namarthicentric armies with the Leviadon and Eidolon giving the thralls 2+, 2+ in CC?

And how competitive do you think the sharks will be now?

[Rhetoric]

All good changes, I was running an Aspect of the Storm before COVID anyway, +1 to wound is huge for an army that is wounding on 3’s to begin with.  The Leviadon needs to see some time on the table still to make the decision on how useful it will be.  The direction they took seems to me like it’s supposed to anchor your battleline, so it’s got to be able to survive in protracted combat, which is something Deepkin does not do well before BR Morathi.  I’m super hyped about Allopex though.  Unfortunately I think Aspect of the Sea just doesn’t belong anywhere still.  

[JackStreicher]

Now we can actually play Namartii,

Reavers synergy with turtle and both Eidolons (hitting and wounding on 3s), with 3 shots at 9“

manartii thralls can get +3 Bravery (aspect of the sea) and benefit a ton from the Turtle

 

Sharks are solid! I love them!

[HollowHills]

4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Now we can actually play Namartii,

Reavers synergy with turtle and both Eidolons (hitting and wounding on 3s), with 3 shots at 9“

manartii thralls can get +3 Bravery (aspect of the sea) and benefit a ton from the Turtle

 

Sharks are solid! I love them!

I'm pretty happy with the changes, I don't think it will impact the meta much though. I can see an eidolon of the storm being taken now as a way to buff eels and compete at the objective game (on certain battleplans). I'd be interested to try a Leviadon but not sure how much it offers. I'm actually a bit unsure if the sharks are any better, the loss of the fin attacks coupled with a point increase makes that a bit iffy.

Really hoping to see a new battletome or some more Idoneth love in 2021. 

[woolf]

eidolon of storm dmg seems actually be lower now as he lost the rr1 on hit/wound and the +wound aura doesn't do much for him as wounding on 2 anyways. however extra survivability and point drop could make him viable perhaps. 

sharks interesting in particular the entangle ability, although eels probably stronger as get more from king cmd ability with more attack profiles

leviadon buffs seem quite solid though and now with more survivable aspect of Sea I think there could be a viable defensive build between debuffs from eidolon spells coupled with +save aura which also stacks with cover save in turn 1 / from spell

[Rhetoric]

27 minutes ago, woolf said:

eidolon of storm dmg seems actually be lower now as he lost the rr1 on hit/wound and the +wound aura doesn't do much for him as wounding on 2 anyways. however extra survivability and point drop could make him viable perhaps. 

sharks interesting in particular the entangle ability, although eels probably stronger as get more from king cmd ability with more attack profiles

leviadon buffs seem quite solid though and now with more survivable aspect of Sea I think there could be a viable defensive build between debuffs from eidolon spells coupled with +save aura which also stacks with cover save in turn 1 / from spell

I’m not disappointed by the changes, but the one thing Deepkin lack is a CA.  We still ONLY have the High Tide CA from Volturnos/Akhelian King.  There’s definitely an opportunity to pump the CA on a unit of multiple sharks, plus their +1 attack from the new ability on the scroll.