AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Drazhoath]

For our next tome I would like the idea to place three scenery models, like three ship wrecks or sth. You must place them in a triangle (like the Bermuda one) and everything in this gets buffs or debuffs.

[DocKeule]

19 hours ago, NkfPanda said:

With the shooting right now that so many armies have any buffs or synergies that don't require a 5 wound hero are much appreciated :P. I will take a 5+ FNP please for all of my Namarti please and spank you. Make their weapons 2 inches at the same time. Spiiicy.

I think a 5+ FNP would be a little much on a basic unit.

Personally I am not a big fan of the inflation on FNP to begin with. It just makes the game too static. You run at each other until you collide, hit each other over the head and then ignore up to two thirds of the damage so for at least a couple of turns none of the units go anywhere. That is fine with a 40 model unit but not for ten much less three.

[Sonnenspeer]

7 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Hmmm new realm rules on general book are locking ****** great for my idoneths!

 

Metal one has a spell to give +1 save, can we stack it to turtle and mystic shield in order to have a 2+ invul rerolleable armor on shield eels???

Are the rules already leaked? 🤔

[HollowHills]

11 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

I think a 5+ FNP would be a little much on a basic unit.

Personally I am not a big fan of the inflation on FNP to begin with. It just makes the game too static. You run at each other until you collide, hit each other over the head and then ignore up to two thirds of the damage so for at least a couple of turns none of the units go anywhere. That is fine with a 40 model unit but not for ten much less three.

I agree... except everyone else already has access to stuff like this.

Vanari Wardens have higher damage than thralls (assuming they get their spell off), 3 inch range, a 4 up save and easy access to a 5 fnp.

They are the same points I believe (120).

Then compare thralls to fyreslayers units, OBR etc. Even if they went down to 100 points for 10 they still wouldn't be cost effective. 

Basically when GW keeps making new units stronger the only solution for thralls is to give them the same stuff.

[DocKeule]

1 hour ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Are the rules already leaked? 🤔

You can catch a glimpse here especially in the video with the writers.

 

 

1 hour ago, HollowHills said:

I agree... except everyone else already has access to stuff like this.

Vanari Wardens have higher damage than thralls (assuming they get their spell off), 3 inch range, a 4 up save and easy access to a 5 fnp.

They are the same points I believe (120).

Then compare thralls to fyreslayers units, OBR etc. Even if they went down to 100 points for 10 they still wouldn't be cost effective. 

Basically when GW keeps making new units stronger the only solution for thralls is to give them the same stuff.

Fair enough. I am expecting a big boost when we get a new book. Apart from the Sylvaneth everyone got some good stuff.

[NkfPanda]

3 hours ago, DocKeule said:

I think a 5+ FNP would be a little much on a basic unit.

Personally I am not a big fan of the inflation on FNP to begin with. It just makes the game too static. You run at each other until you collide, hit each other over the head and then ignore up to two thirds of the damage so for at least a couple of turns none of the units go anywhere. That is fine with a 40 model unit but not for ten much less three.

I have always thought of the Namarti as the toughest and most muscular Elves (all natural baby, lift heavy and eat right). The 5+ FNP feels natural for them but I am sure they can think of other ways to make them more durable. I am definitely not a rules writer :p. These  jacked dudes on 32mm with double handed weapons just feel Meh to me on the tabletop. With things like witch aelves and realm lords running around I would love some Jacked Pointy Eared Fishy Boiz with a 5+ FNP. Even with that they wouldn't really feel over powered I believe. Maybe I will try a game with a buddy trying that out and see if it feels too good.

Edited June 30, 2020 by NkfPanda

[LuminethMage]

16 hours ago, HollowHills said:

I agree... except everyone else already has access to stuff like this.

Vanari Wardens have higher damage than thralls (assuming they get their spell off), 3 inch range, a 4 up save and easy access to a 5 fnp.

They are the same points I believe (120).

Then compare thralls to fyreslayers units, OBR etc. Even if they went down to 100 points for 10 they still wouldn't be cost effective. 

Basically when GW keeps making new units stronger the only solution for thralls is to give them the same stuff.

The Wardens don't have a 5FNP on themselves though. They have easy access to it, as long as Teclis is on the board and casts his protection spell (which under normal conditions you will do 100% of the time, granted), and they are within its range (18').  Their attack stats are 2 attacks with +3, +4, no rend. And they have to get that spell off you are talking about, which won't happen 100% of the time. It's on a 6, and only available if the unit has 5 or more models.

I hope they fix the Namarti so that they can be used more regularly, but I don't think it's fair to make a comparison between one unit being buffed by 660 points character to another unit which has the same costs own its own. Imagine Lotann was worth 660 points and did some amazing buffs for the Namarthi - and I'd take that as reason to say that Wardens need a buff on their own Warscroll.

I do think though all-in-all the Wardens look slightly better than the Namarthi for the same points even on their own (they also have a higher save, and get bonuses when being charged). Let's see what GW has done in the new GHB - hopefully they did something. : )

 

[HollowHills]

4 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

The Wardens don't have a 5FNP on themselves though. They have easy access to it, as long as Teclis is on the board and casts his protection spell (which under normal conditions you will do 100% of the time, granted), and they are within its range (18').  Their attack stats are 2 attacks with +3, +4, no rend. And they have to get that spell off you are talking about, which won't happen 100% of the time. It's on a 6, and only available if the unit has 5 or more models.

I hope they fix the Namarti so that they can be used more regularly, but I don't think it's fair to make a comparison between one unit being buffed by 660 points character to another unit which has the same costs own its own. Imagine Lotann was worth 660 points and did some amazing buffs for the Namarthi - and I'd take that as reason to say that Wardens need a buff on their own Warscroll.

I do think though all-in-all the Wardens look slightly better than the Namarthi for the same points even on their own (they also have a higher save, and get bonuses when being charged). Let's see what GW has done in the new GHB - hopefully they did something. : )

 

I'm mainly using wardens as they are a new unit which a lot of people will be familiar with. But to address the point a bit, you don't need teclis to get the 5 up fnp. You can do it with a much cheaper wizard. You also still get mortals on 6s even without the unit spell. Most Importantly the 3 inch range on 32 mm bases is basically equal to plus 2 attacks. If you have 30 nemarti you'll be lucky to get 15 in base to base contact to fight, if you have 30 wardens most of them will be in range without any issue. Wardens also go to 3 3 -1 when charged (which they will go for most of the time) and will be-1 to hit all the time with very minimal effort.

The best you can give thralls is reroll 1s to hit and wound, and that requires range restrictions much more severe than any in the lumimeth tome. The resurrection mechanism is laughably bad. Giving you d3 models on your turn only after you've taken battleshock and again with a very restrictive range. If a unit of nemarti are taking battleshock you're probably losing the whole unit. Pretty much any decent combat unit can kill 30 nemarti in a turn (including bs casualties).

And that's not even starting on comparing sentinels to reavers. 

Like I said though, I'm not specifically attacking lumineth. You can make similar arguments comparing thralls to other similarly costed units, like Phoenix guard or mortek guard.

I am annoyed about this though. A large part of the Idoneth tome was dead on arrival and it isn't anything that points adjustments can fix. I just hope late 2020 to early 2021 will finally see our new book.

It better be written by whoever did OBR, Slaanesh and Lumineth and not the guy who did Sylvaneth and Ogors.

[LuminethMage]

I didn’t think you attacked the Lumineth, I just thought the example of the 5FNP isn’t great. I know you can use the Cathaller or a unit Champion to get it too, but then it’s not really easy access anymore (relatively difficult spell with a 8 to cast, and only a 9” bubble, whereas when Teclis is there, the spell is almost guaranteed to be up). 

Even without the FNP the Wardens are better I think than the Namarti, so I hope the Namarthi get something in the 2020 GHB or a new Battletome. You almost never see them, and they are pretty cool models. I totally understand that part, I’m happy that basically all the Lumineth models are good in their own right. 

I just think your argument gets less convincing if you compare one unit with hero assistance to another unit without. That’s all. : )

[JackStreicher]

14 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

2020 GHB or a new Battletome

I am really doubting it. It took two iterations of Point changes yet the points costs of Namarti were barely touched. I assume GW is not aware that a problem exists.

[Incineroar87]

Is there any chance that some point adjustments will help Idoneth?  Will a cheaper Turtle / Eidolon make us more attractive? 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Incineroar87
Mistake

[HollowHills]

20 minutes ago, Incineroar87 said:

Is there any chance that some point adjustments will help Idoneth?  Will a cheaper Turtle / Eidolon make us more attractive? 

Eidolon of the Storm is viable at the current cost,  imo.

Turtle would probably need to drop around 100 points. So I don't see it happening. 

[Sonnenspeer]

Please no point adjustments!! But this: 🙃
Allopex Bite --> 3 Mortals on a 6 to hit
Eidolon --> ethereal
Reavers --> -1 rent on the bows
Leviadon the drum does -1 to hit rolls for everybody who is no IDK in 12"
Thralls: 2" range

Edited July 1, 2020 by Sonnenspeer

[NkfPanda]

53 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Please no point adjustments!! But this: 🙃
Allopex Bite --> 3 Mortals on a 6 to hit
Eidolon --> ethereal
Reavers --> -1 rent on the bows
Leviadon the drum does -1 to hit rolls for everybody who is no IDK in 12"
Thralls: 2" range

You sir, have a good head on your shoulders.

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Please no point adjustments!! But this: 🙃
Allopex Bite --> 3 Mortals on a 6 to hit
Eidolon --> ethereal
Reavers --> -1 rent on the bows
Leviadon the drum does -1 to hit rolls for everybody who is no IDK in 12"
Thralls: 2" range

I don't think there will be warscroll changes in GHB20.

I think the Eidolons could drop to 300 and be really interesting with their current scrolls, I mean we have a whole special table that doesn't get used at the moment

I wish the Leviadon's aura was a bonus to bravery, or a hit buff/debuff

I think the biggest problem with namarti is that they just aren't interesting, if you want to play infantry why are you playing IDK there isn't much unique about them. I think it would be cool if the infantry could deploy in no mans land or something interesting like that. But alas.

[azdimy]

LRL can ally with Idoneth Deepkin. How do we know if there is reciprocity? Especially when the lore and alliance chart for multiplayer in the ghb indicate otherwise?

[Drofnum]

1 hour ago, azdimy said:

LRL can ally with Idoneth Deepkin. How do we know if there is reciprocity? Especially when the lore and alliance chart for multiplayer in the ghb indicate otherwise?

That chart is for a different type of game and doesnt show they cant ally.  It just shows its less ideal than some others, Stormcast and Idoneth are shown as fractious but can ally and Lumineth and stormcast are shown on that chart as battleforged but cant ally in matched play.  The chart doesnt mean much in this regard.

In general being able to ally goes both ways, I cant think of any instance where X faction can ally in Y faction but not vice versa.

[JackStreicher]

 

IDK warfare is described like a wave : crash into the foe, then retreat and crash again.

It would be nice if the battleshock phase would reflect this in some manner instead of eradicating all our Namartii all the time.

Edited July 1, 2020 by JackStreicher
Spelling

[HollowHills]

The good news is at least one playtester has Idoneth as his main army, so when our book does get tested they should at least get decent feedback. 

[DocKeule]

22 hours ago, HollowHills said:

The resurrection mechanism is laughably bad. Giving you d3 models on your turn only after you've taken battleshock and again with a very restrictive range. If a unit of nemarti are taking battleshock you're probably losing the whole unit. Pretty much any decent combat unit can kill 30 nemarti in a turn (including bs casualties).

I think Im would soften both points.

There may be a few units that can get 30 wounds through on a Namarti blob on their own but those a few. If you concentrate on a unit including shooting and magic it would often be possible to inflict 30 wounds in one round or in some cases even one turn though.

On the other hand if you run the Namarti Corps and as Mor'Phann you would get guaranteed six models back per round and Soulrender. That means a Soulrender would amortize his point costs in one round, bringing back 78 points of Namarti to his 80. That is decent, although I can see where you are coming from. Compared to the summoning of other factions that is not exactly impressive.

 

17 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Please no point adjustments!! But this: 🙃
Allopex Bite --> 3 Mortals on a 6 to hit
Eidolon --> ethereal
Reavers --> -1 rent on the bows
Leviadon the drum does -1 to hit rolls for everybody who is no IDK in 12"
Thralls: 2" range

That would pretty much fix the army. 

[HollowHills]

1 hour ago, DocKeule said:

I think Im would soften both points.

There may be a few units that can get 30 wounds through on a Namarti blob on their own but those a few. If you concentrate on a unit including shooting and magic it would often be possible to inflict 30 wounds in one round or in some cases even one turn though.

On the other hand if you run the Namarti Corps and as Mor'Phann you would get guaranteed six models back per round and Soulrender. That means a Soulrender would amortize his point costs in one round, bringing back 78 points of Namarti to his 80. That is decent, although I can see where you are coming from. Compared to the summoning of other factions that is not exactly impressive.

 

That would pretty much fix the army. 

I tried the nemarti build pretty early on after the book came out. If you guys remember there was about a month between when the book and thralls came out until when the eels came out. So I bought quite a lot of thralls before I'd seen the book thinking they would be our bread and butter.

For me the two biggest issues then were 1) range restrictions and 2) it only working in your battleshock phase.

You want to take the biggest unit of nemarti allowed as it gives them the best chance of surviving long enough to get back models. But the range on the sojlrender makes it really hard to keep 30 nemarti wholly within. Then you get to charging and you need to basically charge the soulrender and then charge the nemartk around him,  not reliable.

The only working in your battleshock also means that if you get nothing for all your investment half the time. If you get double turned it can be even worse.

Since then its become even worse in comparison to many armies, because summoning no longer costs points as well as other armies having better resurrection mechanics. 

To get it from d3 to 6 per turn you also have to take an enclave, instead of say giving your whole army reroll 1s, and an expensive battalion that makes you take the even worse reavers. 

To fix it I'd say it should change to.

Wholly within 24, guaranteed 3 models, works each bs phase, morphann adds d6, battalion adds d3.

[DocKeule]

Then you would have to at least double the points on the Soulrender. 

 

1 hour ago, HollowHills said:

Since then its become even worse in comparison to many armies, because summoning no longer costs points as well as other armies having better resurrection mechanics. 

In my opinion summoning has to be recaptured in the next edition any way. I think it need restrictions in volume and positioning. One Great Unclean One showing up in turn 5 is thematic an although potentially game-changing a thrilling moment. Having a new Great Unclean One showing up ever other round stops being fun pretty quickly. Also I think we need more limitations as to where a unit can pop up out of the blue.

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, DocKeule said:

Then you would have to at least double the points on the Soulrender. 

 

In my opinion summoning has to be recaptured in the next edition any way. I think it need restrictions in volume and positioning. One Great Unclean One showing up in turn 5 is thematic an although potentially game-changing a thrilling moment. Having a new Great Unclean One showing up ever other round stops being fun pretty quickly. Also I think we need more limitations as to where a unit can pop up out of the blue.

I don't think there is any army that can just summon anywhere...

Tbh I think the soulrender needs a rethink altogether bringing models back was too direct to work, tbh he would be way better if the only thing was make Namarti immune to Battleshock. Don't know if I would take him, but still at least he would do something to keep Namarti around if that was the intent. But I suppose it could be worse he could Lotann.

[NkfPanda]

So the changes for the new GHB that I can see are:

Akhelian King down 10 pts

Thralls down 10 pts 

Eidolon and Turtle....have not changed....weird flex GW but ok. 

On the plus side my KO list which I am building should be great against meta armies like Seraphon, LRL, Mortek and Tzeentch is 100 pts cheaper now lol. I really wanted to focus on an akhelian corps list. I am still going to play it because I play what I love but it is nice playing all the models you enjoy in a more competitive setting without feeling like too much of a handicap is going on.

[Kitsumy]

Really??? U must be kidding rigth? I only saw sce points. And they dropped like 90% units.

 

U really telling me that only thralks and king dropped 10????? That would be a massive nerf to our allready useless minis, everything should get huge drops outside eels.