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AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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On 6/18/2020 at 3:41 AM, DantePQ said:

Yeah sticks for Eeels are so fragile. I dropped my army case and 16 sticks broke so I pinned them and then glued them together. 

104320159_757331578339657_650267396728045424_n.jpg

Beautiful eels! Could you post some pics or a little tutorial of how you pinned them? Mine are falling over every week lol.

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I feel like it's time for us to start a conversation about how we could potentially increase our competitive ability by utilizing LRL as allies. 
Obviously most people in thread are interested in (are likely swapping over to) LRL, although I believe IDK will get a second wave sooner rather than later, however I think that slowly building up an army is the best way to not only start a new faction but also to build up our own competitiveness. 

At a basic glance of the new rules, two units stand out to me - Sentinels and Wardens. 

Wardens provide a solid backline objective taking unit that Deepkin lack. Our thralls are killy but fragile, and for the same points I couldn't ever see us taking thralls over warden allies in a list. Additionally they provide defensive MW dealing attacks, which is often where we fall. 
Sentinels are for me, the more interesting of the two. Particularly their long ranged MW output which is something that Idoneth lack completely. The ability to take out key support characters is the most efficient use of them IMHO. I've often found that I've lost games due to being unable to get to the support heroes (Fyreslayers and OBR I'm looking at you!), now we have an option to take them out and let our Morrsar do what they do best. Honestly I feel like this is the game changing unit we've been waiting for.

Now it comes down to whether we utilize them in an Ionrach enclave to give them our bonuses. I'm thinking mostly not, especially if just look at taking archers. (I think it was looking at 10 for 150, so a block of 20 for allies would be phenomenal). 

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On 6/21/2020 at 1:13 AM, Hypephoon said:

I feel like it's time for us to start a conversation about how we could potentially increase our competitive ability by utilizing LRL as allies. 
Obviously most people in thread are interested in (are likely swapping over to) LRL, although I believe IDK will get a second wave sooner rather than later, however I think that slowly building up an army is the best way to not only start a new faction but also to build up our own competitiveness. 

At a basic glance of the new rules, two units stand out to me - Sentinels and Wardens. 

Wardens provide a solid backline objective taking unit that Deepkin lack. Our thralls are killy but fragile, and for the same points I couldn't ever see us taking thralls over warden allies in a list. Additionally they provide defensive MW dealing attacks, which is often where we fall. 
Sentinels are for me, the more interesting of the two. Particularly their long ranged MW output which is something that Idoneth lack completely. The ability to take out key support characters is the most efficient use of them IMHO. I've often found that I've lost games due to being unable to get to the support heroes (Fyreslayers and OBR I'm looking at you!), now we have an option to take them out and let our Morrsar do what they do best. Honestly I feel like this is the game changing unit we've been waiting for.

Now it comes down to whether we utilize them in an Ionrach enclave to give them our bonuses. I'm thinking mostly not, especially if just look at taking archers. (I think it was looking at 10 for 150, so a block of 20 for allies would be phenomenal). 

The archer support sounds like it could be interesting but my Deepkin have been pretty competitive without this on the strength of Eels alone. I am not a fan of the lumineth so I dont think I will soup them in. I utilize a Celestant Prime, Soulscryer, Akhelian King and more Eels than a sushi bar and I can usually kill who I need to kill. Sometimes I will throw in Namarti to flip the tides for fun and sharks but if I am going uber competitive with a friend's similar list then no.  I think a solid option will still be Shadow warriors unless they go up in points. I am reallllly hoping with the new GHB that Turtles and Eidolons go wayyyyyy down. Deepkin are my first AOS army after quitting gaming for years and my biggest nerdy love. 

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I think our best best is that we might be getting a new battletome some time soon. With Nurgle, DoK and Nighthount we are one of the last armies that have not been updated yet. 

I am not the biggest fan of the direction the army rules are going lately. Spamming attacks and mortal wounds and then ignoring most of them. But that is neither here nor there. At least we would be up to par and hopefully some more units would become viable options,

Some would not even need that much. If the Namarti would get a 2" range we could get more into close combat and running bigger units would become an option which in return would be easier to bring back models with the Souldrender because there would still be a unit to bring models to. So with one little change two unit types would be much more valuable. 

With the Leviadon I would expect the cover-bubble to be switched to an "irgnore damage" bubble on a six or even five judging from the current trends. Event Ironjaws do that now. 

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13 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

With the Leviadon I would expect the cover-bubble to be switched to an "irgnore damage" bubble on a six or even five judging from the current trends. Event Ironjaws do that now.

Reducing dmg by 1 to a minimum of 1 would be amazing and make the Turtle worth its points!

 

I am still holding out for a Akhelian phalanx or sth. Like Namartii that had their souls somewhat „repaired“ to be a class of elite guard and, in society, be something in between Akhelians and Namarti 

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3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Reducing dmg by 1 to a minimum of 1 would be amazing and make the Turtle worth its points!

That would be not help at all especially against horde armies.
 

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I am still holding out for a Akhelian phalanx or sth. Like Namartii that had their souls somewhat „repaired“ to be a class of elite guard and, in society, be something in between Akhelians and Namarti 

The stats of the Namarti are already nothing so sneeze at as they are. Also I think most relaunches featured one additional hero at most when they got a box set. (With the exception of the Grots, they got a pretty big makeover.)

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On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2020 at 7:13 AM, Hypephoon said:

I feel like it's time for us to start a conversation about how we could potentially increase our competitive ability by utilizing LRL as allies. 
Obviously most people in thread are interested in (are likely swapping over to) LRL, although I believe IDK will get a second wave sooner rather than later, however I think that slowly building up an army is the best way to not only start a new faction but also to build up our own competitiveness. 

At a basic glance of the new rules, two units stand out to me - Sentinels and Wardens. 

Wardens provide a solid backline objective taking unit that Deepkin lack. Our thralls are killy but fragile, and for the same points I couldn't ever see us taking thralls over warden allies in a list. Additionally they provide defensive MW dealing attacks, which is often where we fall. 
Sentinels are for me, the more interesting of the two. Particularly their long ranged MW output which is something that Idoneth lack completely. The ability to take out key support characters is the most efficient use of them IMHO. I've often found that I've lost games due to being unable to get to the support heroes (Fyreslayers and OBR I'm looking at you!), now we have an option to take them out and let our Morrsar do what they do best. Honestly I feel like this is the game changing unit we've been waiting for.

Now it comes down to whether we utilize them in an Ionrach enclave to give them our bonuses. I'm thinking mostly not, especially if just look at taking archers. (I think it was looking at 10 for 150, so a block of 20 for allies would be phenomenal). 

Lumineth are not part of the allies available for Deepkin, so is this a theoretical discussion if an errata changes that?

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56 minutes ago, Falkman said:

Lumineth are not part of the allies available for Deepkin, so is this a theoretical discussion if an errata changes that?

Correct, It's an assumption, considering they can ally us. It would seem to be silly if not vise/versa. 

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11 hours ago, DocKeule said:

I think our best best is that we might be getting a new battletome some time soon. With Nurgle, DoK and Nighthount we are one of the last armies that have not been updated yet. 

I am not the biggest fan of the direction the army rules are going lately. Spamming attacks and mortal wounds and then ignoring most of them. But that is neither here nor there. At least we would be up to par and hopefully some more units would become viable options,

Some would not even need that much. If the Namarti would get a 2" range we could get more into close combat and running bigger units would become an option which in return would be easier to bring back models with the Souldrender because there would still be a unit to bring models to. So with one little change two unit types would be much more valuable. 

With the Leviadon I would expect the cover-bubble to be switched to an "irgnore damage" bubble on a six or even five judging from the current trends. Event Ironjaws do that now. 

I really hope we do get a new battletome. We are super lucky in that it is an older battletome but has stood the test of time to a decent degree but I love Deepkin like a fat kid loves cake so a new battletome sounds delish. The Namarti def should have 2 inch range and a way to make them survive. I would prefer them to not just go down in points because I do like playing an elite army but just that they do not die to a stiff breeze.  The Leviadon idea for a 5+ FNP sounds great and would not be over powered as well. 

 

The Eidolons really need to become more powerful. These centrepiece models are so beautiful and I use one because I love the model but it is so under powered. Especially when you read something like Court of the Blind King and see how they can just wreck face.

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17 hours ago, NkfPanda said:

I really hope we do get a new battletome. We are super lucky in that it is an older battletome but has stood the test of time to a decent degree but I love Deepkin like a fat kid loves cake so a new battletome sounds delish. The Namarti def should have 2 inch range and a way to make them survive. I would prefer them to not just go down in points because I do like playing an elite army but just that they do not die to a stiff breeze.  The Leviadon idea for a 5+ FNP sounds great and would not be over powered as well. 

 

The Eidolons really need to become more powerful. These centrepiece models are so beautiful and I use one because I love the model but it is so under powered. Especially when you read something like Court of the Blind King and see how they can just wreck face.

I think we are ripe for the first non stormcast model update for AOS. GW has spent a pretty small amount of time completely updating the whole system so that everyone was on the same playing field (some benefited some didn't). As we have now approached the end of this run, I doubt we will see a) the frequency of the updates and b) the lack of releases for said updates. Now the dust has settled I believe we will go back to "New book = 2-4 new kits" way of life, and Deepkin (other than stormcast of course) are really first on the block for that expansion. 

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3 hours ago, Hypephoon said:

I think we are ripe for the first non stormcast model update for AOS. GW has spent a pretty small amount of time completely updating the whole system so that everyone was on the same playing field (some benefited some didn't). As we have now approached the end of this run, I doubt we will see a) the frequency of the updates and b) the lack of releases for said updates. Now the dust has settled I believe we will go back to "New book = 2-4 new kits" way of life, and Deepkin (other than stormcast of course) are really first on the block for that expansion. 

Interesting take for sure. I am actually thinking we may get something similar to 40k Psychic Awakening for Aos. I think this partly due to the rumour engines being all over the place but this could just be a bunch of warbands for those random little mini games like beastgrave etc. But of course I have no idea and would welcome the thought of slowly released battletomes! For me personally I really feel like despite the range being small it is all so beautiful that if there was just 1 or even no new models in a Battletome I would be cool with that. The big thing for me is being able to use all the minis I own on the board without feeling like it is a large disadvantage (looking at you Franklin the turtle and Mr. Eidolon). 

 

A great example to replicate would be the new KO battletome. I just purchased a huge lot so I am by no means a KO expert but there are just so many different ways to play the army and lists to build. Zilfin is very competitive but you can still play the other lists and have a decent chance to win and most units are viable. But I do like the positive energy in the thread because I would really like a new battletome this year!

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I honestly would like to have more unity between the classes, almost like Death's kinda thing. Don't make it too much, but stuff like allowing the Akehlian King to give out his re-rolls of 1's to hit to Namartii, maybe giving wound re-rolling auras beyond the Eidolon, give the tide casters Eels or make a whole new class of mounted spellcaster to keep up with all Eel Lists, stuff like that. 

And clean up the some inconsistancies too. If the whole point of a Deepkin Raid is to get souls, why shouldn't he get a chariot or ride a shark when he joins a raiding party of Akhelians? have a longer range way to collect souls instead of being right next to the guy, make it like a mortis engine or a war shrine that buffs our guys while fighting and killing. Give us more magic that makes people fall asleep or forget like in the fluff... and make it good dammit!

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9 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

I honestly would like to have more unity between the classes, almost like Death's kinda thing. Don't make it too much, but stuff like allowing the Akehlian King to give out his re-rolls of 1's to hit to Namartii, maybe giving wound re-rolling auras beyond the Eidolon, give the tide casters Eels or make a whole new class of mounted spellcaster to keep up with all Eel Lists, stuff like that. 

And clean up the some inconsistancies too. If the whole point of a Deepkin Raid is to get souls, why shouldn't he get a chariot or ride a shark when he joins a raiding party of Akhelians? have a longer range way to collect souls instead of being right next to the guy, make it like a mortis engine or a war shrine that buffs our guys while fighting and killing. Give us more magic that makes people fall asleep or forget like in the fluff... and make it good dammit!

Haha you could definitely do an Embailor on some Sea Slug Chariot. I just read Court of the Blind King this past February while on a little trip in Colombia and I noticed that the Soulrender was picking up the souls just like I thought based on the model so maybe they have to be closer up or it is easier on foot? As for the magic you are spot on. Right now it is basically King, Scryer, Bunch of Eels and then I throw in an Eidolon or Prime to make it a little less competitive but still semi comp; if I want to just have fun with some buddies I throw in a Turtle and a bunch of Sharks or Namarti. I really like the army it is so unique but just needs some fine tuning and diversification. Maybe we will get lucky and a dual box will be made. Mortals of Slaanesh and Deepkin in a new box :P. You never know!

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Lookinh how they relaunched Chaos Undivided (the Archaon book) I would guess that magic would become more powerful if we got an update. Or at least more diverse. (I think the buffs for the IDK are pretty repetitive.)

Also it would be nice if we coult use the special command abilities not only if the hero in question was the general. I guess that was an idea for the 2nd edition but a s far as I can see pretty much no other faction has that limitation built in (I think DoK have that also but that book was released about the same sime), And especially the Volturnos/Akhelian King ability is not that much out of the ordinary. Some other factions get similar buffs for ever unit within a bubble. 

But the main goal would have to be to make other builds than the eels spam an attractive option.

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3 hours ago, GrimDork said:

The model range for idoneth is in a pretty great place. I think we’ll probably just get one new hero (likely available only in a dual army set at first), plus endless spells and tome.

I find it still quite limited. Too limited to delve in starting them actually. Heroes are ok, but a few more troop choices would be nice. Maybe a crab, adding some armored staying power, as the rumor engine would imply. Or something.

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I would love more to be added to the range.

Personally I think some Akhelian  elite infantry and king on foot would be very cool.

Or more undersea beasties.

But the cynic in me just thinks that other armies need attention way more than idoneth.

I hope I’m wrong tho.

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8 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Lookinh how they relaunched Chaos Undivided (the Archaon book) I would guess that magic would become more powerful if we got an update. Or at least more diverse. (I think the buffs for the IDK are pretty repetitive.)

Also it would be nice if we coult use the special command abilities not only if the hero in question was the general. I guess that was an idea for the 2nd edition but a s far as I can see pretty much no other faction has that limitation built in (I think DoK have that also but that book was released about the same sime), And especially the Volturnos/Akhelian King ability is not that much out of the ordinary. Some other factions get similar buffs for ever unit within a bubble. 

But the main goal would have to be to make other builds than the eels spam an attractive option.

Right now with the Casters in Seraphon, Tzeentch, and the Lumineth coming I feel bad for armies that rely on casting. The Honest Wargamer had a good talk on this with Vince from Warhammer Weekly where you will either have to go all in on magic or none at all. Ya, I would love to not have to rely on Eel Spam to win. I usually take a bunch of Eels and then take someone else as a Tax that I just like (an Eidolon for example).

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1 hour ago, Frodos said:

Quick question: can  Volturnos, High King of the Deep use command ability Supreme Lord of Tides in any phase as long as condition (High Tide is active) is met?

You have to use it in the Hero Phase.  There is an FAQ that says if the command ability doesnt state which phase you use it in you use it in the hero phase.

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