AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Nerdkingdan]

14 hours ago, wayniac said:

Hi all considering jumping back into AOS after not having played since.. probably since 2.0 first came out.  I haven't done an Order army yet (I have FEC and Nurgle) and really like the look and fluff of Deepkin (right now it's a tossup between them and Bonereapers with Deepkin slightly in the lead).  One of the things I'm looking for in an army this time around besides no summoning (really don't want to have to buy a lot of extra stuff on top of the actual army) is an army that I can adjust the power level relatively easy i.e. turn it up for competitive games/tournaments and tone it down for more casual games.

Deepkin seem to fall right into this category as it seems like if I don't take 18+ Eels or maybe take some Allopex (love these models) and Namarti it tones it down, while more eels = more power?  Luckily for me I really like the entire range of models in the Deepkin line with the possible exception of the Octodude and I'm not a huge fan of the female spellcaster but she's not so bad.

Is this observation correct?  I know Deepkin are (were?) a higher end army competitively with eel spam, how do they fare when toned down?  Are they still pretty decent?

My biggest frustration with deepkin is that I am having trouble adjusting the power level.   Without some eels the list doesn’t function, half points on eels is still extremely good.   I have not found a good way to make a mid tier list, it’s been amazing or garbage.

My local inexperienced meta slaughters namarti, and dies to eels,

Edited November 26, 2019 by Nerdkingdan

[wayniac]

Well if I have the choice I'll go amazing, but that is something to keep in mind.  I think I've decided to give it a shot though, I spent most of last night really scrutinizing the Bonereapers and Deepkin models and really found myself more attracted to the Deepkin.

[Acid_Nine]

3 hours ago, wayniac said:

Well if I have the choice I'll go amazing, but that is something to keep in mind.  I think I've decided to give it a shot though, I spent most of last night really scrutinizing the Bonereapers and Deepkin models and really found myself more attracted to the Deepkin.

then jump on in! the water's fine if you like the models.

 

Has anyone played with the Royal Council Battalion btw? it seems like a good choice to get some unexpected speed, and combine it with the rune of Surging tide I think we can get eels to go 18" turn 1, either to smash into the enemy or to send our shield eels to tie up something important.

[Drofnum]

2 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

then jump on in! the water's fine if you like the models.

 

Has anyone played with the Royal Council Battalion btw? it seems like a good choice to get some unexpected speed, and combine it with the rune of Surging tide I think we can get eels to go 18" turn 1, either to smash into the enemy or to send our shield eels to tie up something important.

The problem with the battalion is that all the hero's need to be near each other and you generally dont want that.  You want the scryer setup off the board and the King is going to outrun the tidecaster after turn 1.  You give up too much putting the scryer on the board to make it worth it, unless you know you're going to be playing only total commitment.

[wayniac]

From looking at the battalions, none of them really seem to be worth taking.  The bonuses they give seem really lackluster.

[Acid_Nine]

9 hours ago, Drofnum said:

The problem with the battalion is that all the hero's need to be near each other and you generally dont want that.  You want the scryer setup off the board and the King is going to outrun the tidecaster after turn 1.  You give up too much putting the scryer on the board to make it worth it, unless you know you're going to be playing only total commitment.

True enough, but i’m Thinking maybe only one turn with this buff is needed? If you have this big of an alpha strike, giving everyone a +4 to their movement turn one, giving one target an extra three inches to engage, then surely we will be in charge range? Plus nothing is stopping you from using him to outflank when needed, like when facing slaanesh or something. 

 

I am planning on attending a 2,500 pt tourney soon, and since i’m Still dirt poor I think this and an akhelian corps battalion would help fill In the points I need, and could be fun. Gets me down to a two drop list, gives me an extra relic, and can have that much needed punch for a turn 1 charge?

 

 

[Nerdkingdan]

10 hours ago, wayniac said:

From looking at the battalions, none of them really seem to be worth taking.  The bonuses they give seem really lackluster.

The Namarti one is the only one worth it.

If you do a tide flip(tide caster general) it covers your troops in one drop, and they do speed bump for the eels.

[Acid_Nine]

So, I tried out the soul scryer yesterday, and I got to say it changed the entire way I played the game, and I think I lost the game because of it? I had some bad dice rolls, but the first time I used seeker of souls I found out from a tournament champion that everyone within 12" of the target of the ability has to charge that unit and end within 1/2 inch of that unit. I read it before but I really didn't think it was a mandatory thing for everyone. Feels kinda weird to have that there, especially when other factions can get that ability without playing around being forced to commit everyone in. so, that's one thing to look out for I guess.

 

Also Katakros is tough as hell and survived a 4x lord of tides buffed charge of morrsarr guard and that makes me sad.

[Mikosan]

12 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

So, I tried out the soul scryer yesterday, and I got to say it changed the entire way I played the game, and I think I lost the game because of it? I had some bad dice rolls, but the first time I used seeker of souls I found out from a tournament champion that everyone within 12" of the target of the ability has to charge that unit and end within 1/2 inch of that unit. I read it before but I really didn't think it was a mandatory thing for everyone. Feels kinda weird to have that there, especially when other factions can get that ability without playing around being forced to commit everyone in. so, that's one thing to look out for I guess.

 

Also Katakros is tough as hell and survived a 4x lord of tides buffed charge of morrsarr guard and that makes me sad.

Fake news.  Only the first model you move from each unit that benefits from seeker of souls has to finish within 1/2 inch and nothing says you have to charge if within 12 inches.  

Edited December 2, 2019 by Mikosan

[Drofnum]

.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Drofnum

[Acid_Nine]

19 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

Fake news.  Only the first model you move from each unit that benefits from seeker of souls has to finish within 1/2 inch.  

Well yea, but that still threw off my battle plan because I didn't know I still had to do that. I was going to charge my ishlean guard into a unit of necropolis stalkers while my big squad goes into a unit of deathriders to eliminate a flank, but since they where within 12" of the deathriders the ishlean had to finish their charge within 1/2 inch, and I didn't want to overcommit into that flank so I had to change targets, meaning I failed the charge against the deathriders and almost failed more charges as a result.

 

18 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

Seeker of souls gives you +3" to your charge IF you charge the unit that it has targeted.  If they are saying you must attempt to charge that target and only that target they are incorrect.  There is nothing in the text stating you must charge that unit.

II don't know, the wording makes it seem I have to charge that unit no matter what, or else I cannot charge.

here is the rule:

At the start of your charge phase, you can pick one
enemy unit within 24" of this model that is visible
to them. If you do so, you must add 3 to charge
rolls for friendly Idoneth Deepkin units that are
within 12" of that unit. However, the first model to
be moved from each unit that receives this modifer
must finish their charge move within ½" of that
unit or their charge will fail. 

 

If it wasn’t for the word ‘must’ I think I would have been fine, but that is still a powerful downside when you spent all turn setting up for a strike, only to have it backfire spectacularly.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Acid_Nine

[Gilboy]

54 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

Well yea, but that still threw off my battle plan because I didn't know I still had to do that. I was going to charge my ishlean guard into a unit of necropolis stalkers while my big squad goes into a unit of deathriders to eliminate a flank, but since they where within 12" of the deathriders the ishlean had to finish their charge within 1/2 inch, and I didn't want to overcommit into that flank so I had to change targets, meaning I failed the charge against the deathriders and almost failed more charges as a result.

 

II don't know, the wording makes it seem I have to charge that unit no matter what, or else I cannot charge.

here is the rule:

At the start of your charge phase, you can pick one
enemy unit within 24" of this model that is visible
to them. If you do so, you must add 3 to charge
rolls for friendly Idoneth Deepkin units that are
within 12" of that unit. However, the first model to
be moved from each unit that receives this modifer
must finish their charge move within ½" of that
unit or their charge will fail. 

 

If it wasn’t for the word ‘must’ I think I would have been fine, but that is still a powerful downside when you spent all turn setting up for a strike, only to have it backfire spectacularly.

Just to confirm this:  at least one model from every one of your units within 12" of the enemy unit you picked must end up w/n 1/2" of that enemy unit IF they charge.   So you can choose not to charge.   Or you can choose to charge one model w/n 1/2" and the others strung out into a different target.  Or all just into that one target.

 

You've learned that now in your first practice game with it, you won't make the mistake again.  The soulscryer ability is amazing, just be careful with your measurements when moving in the prior phase.   For me it is an auto-include in any list.    

[Acid_Nine]

56 minutes ago, Gilboy said:

Just to confirm this:  at least one model from every one of your units within 12" of the enemy unit you picked must end up w/n 1/2" of that enemy unit IF they charge.   So you can choose not to charge.   Or you can choose to charge one model w/n 1/2" and the others strung out into a different target.  Or all just into that one target.

 

You've learned that now in your first practice game with it, you won't make the mistake again.  The soulscryer ability is amazing, just be careful with your measurements when moving in the prior phase.   For me it is an auto-include in any list.    

 

thank you for the confirmation! that is basically what I misunderstood and now need to play around with. It's either I go all in on one target or have to spread out more and allow myself room to hit the marked target while trying to tie up other targets. That was the real issue I faced, but It was way too late in the turn to go back and fix my mistake so I had to make do. I will continue playing around with him, and so far he did a bit more than a second soul scryer did, but I really have to consider targets a bit better. 

 

I think I have the tendency to play more aggressive as well, throwing my entire army at something when I really should hold back with more units and be a bit less aggressive.

[tripchimeras]

On 12/2/2019 at 1:38 PM, Acid_Nine said:

 

thank you for the confirmation! that is basically what I misunderstood and now need to play around with. It's either I go all in on one target or have to spread out more and allow myself room to hit the marked target while trying to tie up other targets. That was the real issue I faced, but It was way too late in the turn to go back and fix my mistake so I had to make do. I will continue playing around with him, and so far he did a bit more than a second soul scryer did, but I really have to consider targets a bit better. 

 

I think I have the tendency to play more aggressive as well, throwing my entire army at something when I really should hold back with more units and be a bit less aggressive.

Also remember that charging doesn't mean you have to complete it in an optimal way.  Note that it says the charge will fail if you do not complete it within half an inch of the unit in question.  It doesn't say you must complete it within half an inch if able, just that for it to be successful it must end within half an inch.  So you can absolutely roll the dice for the unit hoping for a high number and then "fail" the charge if it doesn't get you where you want.  You've lost nothing by trying. 

In general the soulscryer is a 100% double edged sword.  It is an extremely powerful tool, but it is very easy to be tempted into abusing it.  So many times have I used it to bring the bulk of my force into misguided T1 charges only to slowly get grinded out over a turn or 2 and lose the game.  Use it sparingly and situationally and it extends the versatility of the army greatly.  Use it like its a requirement and over-indulge and you will find it betraying you constantly.  What I like to do is declare the soulscryer is deepstriking as my first deployment move, then delay a decision on key units until the last possible second to keep my opponent concerned and trying to cover their backfield.  Sometimes I won't deepstrike anything else at all.  I like to give him cloud of midnight so occasionally I can charge him alone into something on their flank just to hold it up for a turn to prevent it from charging the flank of a unit of eels currently engaged.  It is situational, but with our relative lack of need for artifacts I find it a lot of fun and use it often enough I find it worthwhile.

[Acid_Nine]

24 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

Also remember that charging doesn't mean you have to complete it in an optimal way.  Note that it says the charge will fail if you do not complete it within half an inch of the unit in question.  It doesn't say you must complete it within half an inch if able, just that for it to be successful it must end within half an inch.  So you can absolutely roll the dice for the unit hoping for a high number and then "fail" the charge if it doesn't get you where you want.  You've lost nothing by trying. 

In general the soulscryer is a 100% double edged sword.  It is an extremely powerful tool, but it is very easy to be tempted into abusing it.  So many times have I used it to bring the bulk of my force into misguided T1 charges only to slowly get grinded out over a turn or 2 and lose the game.  Use it sparingly and situationally and it extends the versatility of the army greatly.  Use it like its a requirement and over-indulge and you will find it betraying you constantly.  What I like to do is declare the soulscryer is deepstriking as my first deployment move, then delay a decision on key units until the last possible second to keep my opponent concerned and trying to cover their backfield.  Sometimes I won't deepstrike anything else at all.  I like to give him cloud of midnight so occasionally I can charge him alone into something on their flank just to hold it up for a turn to prevent it from charging the flank of a unit of eels currently engaged.  It is situational, but with our relative lack of need for artifacts I find it a lot of fun and use it often enough I find it worthwhile.

Fair Enough! I have not experienced it myself yet, but I can definitely see it becoming a trap. I will ask how to keep deployments like you described when using a battalion which can drop all at once? 

 

I was thinking about the cloud of midnight as well, but I am far more tempted by rune of the surging tide myself, just because adding one extra inch to movement could really be vital for how a turn goes.

I am still tempted to put my block of 6 eels into reserve, but it really has to be a strange dance I gotta play just to ensure it doesn't ****** up the rest of my army. For example, I really could have tried to go on the other side of the table to hit a bone shaper and his block of guard and a gothizar harvester, but I thought that I needed to delete a deathrider unit (which really proved vital.)

[tripchimeras]

9 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

Fair Enough! I have not experienced it myself yet, but I can definitely see it becoming a trap. I will ask how to keep deployments like you described when using a battalion which can drop all at once? 

 

I was thinking about the cloud of midnight as well, but I am far more tempted by rune of the surging tide myself, just because adding one extra inch to movement could really be vital for how a turn goes.

I am still tempted to put my block of 6 eels into reserve, but it really has to be a strange dance I gotta play just to ensure it doesn't ****** up the rest of my army. For example, I really could have tried to go on the other side of the table to hit a bone shaper and his block of guard and a gothizar harvester, but I thought that I needed to delete a deathrider unit (which really proved vital.)

Yeah I definitely think it is one of the things in our army that takes the most practice.  It is really easy to turn into a crutch.  I would say that generally when I use it I take 1 unit of eels and maybe 1 unit of thralls depending on circumstance, often I take nothing.  With the battalion it really just depends on the # of drops your opponent has.  I usually try to string out my battalion drop as long as possible based on opponent drops.  If he is going to win deployment there is 0 reason to deploy them together, and if you are going to win by 2 or 3, string them out into 2 or 3 drops with whatever you plan to deepstrike included in the last drop.  Also remember that sometimes it can be good just to use for objective gathering.  Teleporting a thrall and/or small unit of eels  across the table for a charge into a lightly defended objective can be just as if not more effective then brutalizing an important unit.  I think it can be particularly effective, and far easier to use in MSU eels, just because taking a couple of small eel units across the table is far less dangerous then a unit of 9.  But even when we play big block eels, I think as long as you have 2 blocks of them taking 1 block still frees the other to be somewhere completely different at the same time.  Its definitely a balancing act, but one that I think is worth while. 

As for surging tide, that can certainly be useful, but unless you are going namarti heavy, personally I find myself rarely running into movement issues with eel heavy lists.  I think the ability to free up an eel from a potentially dangerous counter charger can be game changing at times.  Its a close call, but I tend to lean towards cloud of midnight, but surely both are viable.

Edited December 9, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Koradrel of Chrace]

In a more hobby related question, anyone have any advice for the flying stands for the eels?  I've never used them before, and my eels have been running around being bluetac'ed to the bases, but it's now time to start basing and painting them.

[Acid_Nine]

2 hours ago, Koradrel of Chrace said:

In a more hobby related question, anyone have any advice for the flying stands for the eels?  I've never used them before, and my eels have been running around being bluetac'ed to the bases, but it's now time to start basing and painting them.

Magnets are what I use. From the average viewpoint of playing a game it really isn’t noticeable if you just glue a magnet on the point where they attach on each of the parts.

[tripchimeras]

Magnets are totally viable and per @Acid_Nine, probably the most common solution.  However, I never quite got them working for me the way I wanted (had issues with them falling off and models seemed to be always moving to wierd angles on the bases, totally probably a me problem with glue or mags I was using) so if you find yourself looking for an alternative there is copper rod which is my preferred solution. 

Very easy to drill hole in base slide in coper rod and secure with combo of glue and greenstuff, then drill hole in eel bottom and stick on the copper rod with glue.  That baby is never falling apart again.  I actually really like the aesthetics of it too, but if you prefer transparent or don't like the visible copper maybe not for you.  Though you could always mask the rod with a wave like water effect.  The other thing I really like about using copper rod is that it makes it really easy to introduce height variability into the eels.  So you can make it look like they are descending or ascending to give really cool effects and to give them a more dynamic look (also can make putting them base to base a bit easier as well).

[Siorra]

Both Eidolon's and the Leviadon down by 40 points, Sharks downs by 20 points in today's winter update. Could this offer some variety or is it still not enough?

[Acid_Nine]

23 minutes ago, Siorra said:

Both Eidolon's and the Leviadon down by 40 points, Sharks downs by 20 points in today's winter update. Could this offer some variety or is it still not enough?

still hasn't updated for me unfortunately, but I think there could be some value in these new point changes. I saw the info on reddit for the change but I am hoping that the battalions had a point drop too, just because I want to stubbornly run my corps. but, the extra 60 points could be very valuable, and I could buy something like a vortex for my tide caster or include an ally for a small fee. 

[Drofnum]

2 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

still hasn't updated for me unfortunately, but I think there could be some value in these new point changes. I saw the info on reddit for the change but I am hoping that the battalions had a point drop too, just because I want to stubbornly run my corps. but, the extra 60 points could be very valuable, and I could buy something like a vortex for my tide caster or include an ally for a small fee. 

If you update your app it has the points changes in it now. Battalions all look the same.

[Acid_Nine]

1 minute ago, Drofnum said:

If you update your app it has the points changes in it now. Battalions all look the same.

unfortunately I do not have azyr...

and unfortunately the most important part of my list didn't get a points drop! man, I feel a bit sad that we still have some expensive batallions for what we get, but I will still use them just because I love having extra relics and smaller drops.

[kozokus]

1 hour ago, Acid_Nine said:

and unfortunately the most important part of my list didn't get a points drop!

I hope you didn't really expect a drop on Fangmora,
I used to play an akhelian Corp in V1 got cut in V2 and now i enjoy a -60 point drop, so i can get my V1 list back! GREAT!

[Acid_Nine]

35 minutes ago, kozokus said:

I hope you didn't really expect a drop on Fangmora,
I used to play an akhelian Corp in V1 got cut in V2 and now i enjoy a -60 point drop, so i can get my V1 list back! GREAT!

oh heavens no! I know they need to be at 170 points, even if I am starting to think their profile is becoming a bit lackluster compared to things like Demigryphs knights. As much as I wish they had more rend or one more attack, I can understand why they are sitting at their price point.

 

I was more going off of the fact that the battalions I wanted to run didnt go down in price. I don't think the royal court batallion needs to be so expensive, nor do I think the akhelian corps needs to be when looking at things like the OBR, who have some really good battalions for cheap (and smaller requirements for battalions) compared to what we have now, but that is my opinion after some struggles I had in recent games.

 

Edit: upon actually looking at the battalions for OBR, I see that I was wrong on their costs, as they are at or around the akhelian corps costs. I thought they where cheaper, like 80's across the board, but I see that a majority of them are around 100pts or higher for things like the shield wall and deathlance.

 

Still think royal court at least should be less expensive personally, and I can argue for akhelian corps being less, but for now I will admit I was griping about something that shouldn't have been griping about!

Edited December 17, 2019 by Acid_Nine