AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Acid_Nine]

Welp, the archmage modelhas been squatted. There goes my favorite wizard! Time to make a new tidrcaster

[Drofnum]

7 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

OOPS im used to CA as in chapter approve i also play 40k I meant GH, but thats what i was says, if you are play GH use the GH ones (Tho still fallow the rules for use too), but i meant you can not override our faq with the GH faq if you are playing GH terrain rules.

But again the problem is not everyone is playing with the GH rules right now for terrain.

The GHB rules take precedence over everything before them.  So you really can override our FAQ, and the only thing that gets changed really is you need to place the ships 3" from other terrain rather than 1".  Its spelled out pretty plainly in the FAQ for the GHB.

In a Pitched Battle, faction terrain must be set up more than 3" from any other terrain features and more than 1" from any objectives, in addition to any other restrictions that apply to it. Sometimes this will make it impossible for a faction terrain piece to be set up; in this case, it is not used.’

[Maddpainting]

Yes, i said that.... if you are playing GH use those and again (Use our rules too), but again not everyone is playing the GH terrain rules i gave example as that being the problem.

[Maddpainting]

Is anyone else interested in the new Cities of Sigmar book coming out as allies? (I know no real information is out about it), but just thinking if anyone else is waiting to see whats in it?

[Acid_Nine]

4 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Is anyone else interested in the new Cities of Sigmar book coming out as allies? (I know no real information is out about it), but just thinking if anyone else is waiting to see whats in it?

I am interested in seeing if the archmage will get a reboxing, as I made an awesome conversion that may be dead in the water now.

 

other than that? Not really, unless one city features deep kin and offers better tactics to play around with... or as an excuse to make my black arc army.

[Nerdkingdan]

5 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Is anyone else interested in the new Cities of Sigmar book coming out as allies? (I know no real information is out about it), but just thinking if anyone else is waiting to see whats in it?

I am, really stuck in a rut with my lists, and I am hoping something in there can shake up my deepkin.

 

[Maddpainting]

I'm just hoping this guy isnt going away https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-loremaster-en.pdf

[IneptusAstartes]

How would an all-Akhelian army work out, and what enclave(s) would be best? I want to make an army of flying sealife - have wanted to ever since the models were revealed - and I think the eels look like a lot of fun to paint, but I’m afraid it will make me That Guy.

[Nerdkingdan]

37 minutes ago, IneptusAstartes said:

How would an all-Akhelian army work out, and what enclave(s) would be best? I want to make an army of flying sealife - have wanted to ever since the models were revealed - and I think the eels look like a lot of fun to paint, but I’m afraid it will make me That Guy.

So having never played a game of AOS, i read the rules, and purchased 30 eels, a king a shark, and a turtle, I don't think I even knew the points for sure.   I played pugs, and the thought of large block of flying dudes scared people.    There are a percentage of people who think I am cheesing it, from the day it came out, even though I bought on looks.    An all flying eel army has the reputation deserved or not from day one.   I would tell people I bought this before I played, I thought it looked cool, it didn't help.

I purchased a 100 of the namarti.   I put 40-60 of them in every list now, and people complain less, significantly less.   The list actually performs better because the mixed army works better, with extra bodies, tide flip, and the single drop of the Namarti corps, but the mixed version just upsets people less.  

I don't think all flying is the best way to play deepkin competitively, but it does have a reputation.      You are dealing with a perception that has nothing to do with reality, so to avoid it you have to make some arbitrary change for people.    Deepkin all eel, isn't even winning, because tide flip is better and requires at least 30 namariti, I now play a more powerful army then they complained about.

Do what you want, and don't concern yourself with what they say is the lesson to be learned from my story.

[Acid_Nine]

8 hours ago, IneptusAstartes said:

How would an all-Akhelian army work out, and what enclave(s) would be best? I want to make an army of flying sealife - have wanted to ever since the models were revealed - and I think the eels look like a lot of fun to paint, but I’m afraid it will make me That Guy.

so, a pure all eel army would mean that you should probably go Dhom-Hain, because it  helps you out when you need it the most: charging. Really, if you go with a more even split of Ishlean and Morrsarr, then you really need to line up your charges and plan ahead how you are going to get the most out of it to clear an objective or damage the opponent. Be careful of that, and pick your battles out to make the most of attack. 

Really, the flip-tide Fuethan list is what makes the flying sea life lists really good. They give you turn 1 run and charge, and gives you turn 2 high tide. Downside is that these guys need a tide caster and 30 thralls to be good. Because you want an all akhelian list, luckily this is not going to mean much.

personally I only played two games with my akhelian Core army and I loved the tactical play of them, but I will say you do pretty much want a tide caster or two just to have some casters. not ideal, especially since they removed the mounted arch-mage, but it's not really cost effective to run a double king list the way I do it. I just like to think they hitch a ride on the turtle.

downside of this list is that they do not have a ton of rend on the eels outside of charging, and that you will almost always be outnumbered. if your opponent knows how to use that, then they can provide some great match ups. if you want to soften it up, then maybe focus on ishlean guard and sharks over big squads of morrsarr.

[IneptusAstartes]

Alright, so I should invest in Namarti as well. Fair enough! And in which case a Tidecaster makes the best general? Thralls look like they could blenderize a lot of units.

[tripchimeras]

On 8/10/2019 at 11:36 PM, IneptusAstartes said:

Alright, so I should invest in Namarti as well. Fair enough! And in which case a Tidecaster makes the best general? Thralls look like they could blenderize a lot of units.

Before I respond to this I just wanted to say that I do agree with others that all flying deepkin lists are unfairly lambasted, when fliptide is probably stronger, yet because of the balanced look fliptide will definitely take less heat despite that.  However, if you are worried about that guy, want to stick to the all flyer theme, but don't want to be lambasted, you can do it.  Doing things like taking multiple turtles, Eidolon, some sharks, a full akhelian corps will go a long way towards making the list something most people will not have a problem.  There are always going to be sore losers who complain, but anyone who knows enough to feer eels also probably knows the other stuff are not strong, so I doubt would complain.  I also think if you are running full akhelian corp and/or multiple super expensive flyers you are naturally going to be winning less games, and thus far less likely to be taking much slack.

But all that being said I do think flip tide is our most "balanced" list, and by coincidense also our best list.  So answering your other questions from these posts, I think both Fuethan and Dom-Heim are the 2 strongest conclaves regardless of list construction.  I think they are somewhat interchangeable personally as far as flip tide goes, I do think fuethen has great synergy with it in that you can run and charge turn 1, but the rerolls to hit that dom-heim provides are so strong, particularly in a flip tide list where you may not be bringing a King that it really is a toss up.  I think if you run flip tide with a king, you go Fuethen, but if you run flip-tide without a king you really could go either way.  When you are not running tidecaster as general though  I think its Dom-Hiem every time.

For your second question basically, if you want to include namarti, tidecaster should be your general 100% of the time in a competitive context imo (obviously if you just want to have fun take whatever you want and don't even worry about it).  I think they can be really good, but generally eels are better then namarti, and getting the benefits of fliptide out of the tidecaster is the best way to justify them competitively.  I think whether you take thralls or reavers is a toss up, I have always been a thrall advocate, but recently (in part due to a conversation on this very thread), I have been experimenting a lot more with reavers and really liked them more then I did on paper.  Right now my loadout is 2 reavers, 1 thrall unit.   Rest of the time you are going to want King as your general, to avoid having to pay the "namarti tax".  Think both work, and neither a king list, or a flip tide list are going to do you wrong, I think in casual play both can be very very strong, and competitively both will keep you in most of your games at least middle of the pack even with a non-optimized list as long as you have some eels.

Last thing I'd mention is that if you do like your all flying sea creature theme, but want to be able to use something like fliptide, or just want to avoid hate from opponents, you can give your tidecaster the thermalrider cloak from aqshy, giving him flying and significantly higher movement and model him flying, then take reavers instead of thralls and with their increased speed and with their massive movement for a non-flyer they fit the theme pretty well.  Hell even though its not a particularly strong conclave, if you really want that thematic heft make your enclave Briomdar, so the reavers ignore terrain and you could model them as flying as well, because at that point for all intent and purpose they are.

I always find myself writing book long posts, so I apologize for that haha.  But TL:DR as always take what you want and don't worry about haters, especially if you are just playing casually it really won't matter a ton as long as you take a few eels at least.

[IneptusAstartes]

What *is* fliptide anyway? I’ve seen the term on here but not sure what it exactly is. Tidecaster general + namarti spam?

[Drofnum]

6 minutes ago, IneptusAstartes said:

What *is* fliptide anyway? I’ve seen the term on here but not sure what it exactly is. Tidecaster general + namarti spam?

Its just a Tidecaster general using her ability to change the tides.  What goes with it is generally a bunch of Morrsarr Guard and Fuethan Enclave so you get first turn run/charge and second turn high tide for a brutal alpha strike.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Drofnum

[tripchimeras]

47 minutes ago, IneptusAstartes said:

What *is* fliptide anyway? I’ve seen the term on here but not sure what it exactly is. Tidecaster general + namarti spam?

It just stands for any list with tidecaster as general who flips the tide to go in reverse order (the list basically runs on the concept that turn 2 is a more optimal time to have ASF then turn 3).  Generally at its base its tidecaster + 3 min units of thralls or reavers and 2x9 morrsarr. 

The rest of the points can go in a variety of directions, either filling out more units of namarti/allies (usually eternal guard) for easier board control/objective control, a few min units of ishlaen guard, even more morrsarr, or some combination of any of these.  Rest of characters generally are 1-2 soulscryers (traditionally its been 2, but with point increase might just be 1 now) and maybe a king/volturnos if you feel like it, though efficiency questionable there without his command ability working, but if you go fuethan rerolls really help.

Edited August 12, 2019 by tripchimeras

[IneptusAstartes]

Thanks to everyone helping out here! So looks like I'll be adding some namarti and a tidecaster in addition to both flavors of eels. One last thing - opinions on color schemes! I want to come up with something original (not one of the major enclaves) because it's challenging, because it allows more freedom to be creative, and (most selfishly) because I'll be able to say "oh, they're painted as X which have no rules right now, so I'm using [current hot enclave] rules with them".

There are a few that stood out, and an added bonus would be able to color-sync them with my sylvaneth. Briomdar are thematic and nicely colored and my favorites among the major enclaves,  but their rules aren't too exciting.

- Motlynian Enclave (Barricadius Reef, Ghyran): I see what you did there with "Barricadius", GW. And the "motley" reference. Described as "bright and garish", and they deploy to aid Alarielle post-Necroquake, so a shared Sylvaneth color scheme would be thematic. Goal would be bright coral reef colors, sort of a 40K Harlequins-esque look. Sylvaneth as corals, simple enough.

- Ilmeth Enclave (Bottom of the Lampleus Sea, Hysh): Hail from a place with luminescent waves, and thus they themselves "emit an eerie radiance". Fish painted in abyssal colors, and Nighthaunt-esque deepkin? The challenge would be doing all that bioluminescence, but they would end up looking cool. Downside is that it's harder to match the Sylvaneth to them, other than generic rocky/seaweedy colors.

- Morladron Enclave (Ulgu): They're "black-handed". What does that mean? Are they literally black-handed, having black markings on their extremities? Do they ritually paint their hands black? Is that just a euphemism for murderous? Who even knows? I have no idea what they would look like but gloomy Ulgu deepkin sounds like an equally fun project to attempt. And spooky trees.

Which should I go for? I promise I'll post pics. I'm sure I'll be done painting in at least a few decades.

[Kitsumy]

Oh i always paint my models as some official colour( if is the one i like the most) but play them as different one ruleswise.

 

Never encounted a ****** triying to force someone to play as the one they are painted lol. And i would have a nice argue with him if i encounter him.

 

My eldars have saim han colours and even the serpents tattos but of course they are played always as alaitoc. Same for my idoneths. Mine are on blueish like the first enclave but i play them as fuethan always.

 

It is a game who cares about silly things as colours etc. While the minis be the official minis ( i hate kitbashed ones) i dont care about paint or unpaint on them. And lucky noone does around my country( spain). I dont get why one some regions like usa or brittain people is so forceful on wysigisi( whatever u spell it) and colours etc. Who cares about those little details. If u say all those ultramarines( blue) are blood angels ( red) before the game. It is totally fine. Or people expect someone play with rules they hate ( after new edittion or rules change) or repaint all his army with every change?

[Cookiez]

Hello, Hive mind! I've decided to give AoS 2.0 a shot after dropping it in favour of 40k with the edition switch. How are IDK now competitively after GHB19? Not that good as before Slaanesh, but reliable, I bet? Morrsarr got gutted a bit, but how are the other point changes and matchups? As I see it right now is that Slaanesh is a autolose, but every other absolutely doable?

Is Morrsarr spam with 3x Reavers and fliptide still the tournament to go list or any other things emerged? I was thinking about Akhelian Corps with just 1 Allopex as a tax and hunter killer missile, but I lack practice to judge my initial thoughts. The turtle seems overpriced just a bit right now, but the cover bubble  seems decent with fliptide and the damage is okay-ish with the battalion reroll and 2+ save in AoS is much better than in 40k. Heroes are really lackluster, so taking double wizard is ok, I guess?

And also a clarification - setting 2 full boats, given there is enough space, is legal or is it just two halves?

My local scene is very competitive and so am I, so I'm really looking into tailoring the list.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

Are Allopex still regarded as trash?

[Acid_Nine]

3 hours ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Are Allopex still regarded as trash?

Let's just say that in the most recent games they won't do a lot, but they can pull off a surprise jugger-lord kill if the stars align.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

Thanks! That's kind of what I was expecting. I love the model so it makes me sad that I can't really get a consistently rewarding experience using them on the tabletop.

[Acid_Nine]

34 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Thanks! That's kind of what I was expecting. I love the model so it makes me sad that I can't really get a consistently rewarding experience using them on the tabletop.

Yea, they can surprise you but unfortunately from what I experienced they die pretty quickly. They won't be the star, but they could surprise you if the dice gods smile upon you. They are not as good as eels as I experienced, but could be fun if you try them.

[Nerdkingdan]

6 hours ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Are Allopex still regarded as trash?

I think the general idea is that the best army core is tide flip, with tidecaster, soulscryer, and 2x9 Morrsarr + battle Line leaving you 360 points to play around.   You can sub out one unit of Morrsarr for a 4 strong shark unit, its not as good but workable, and still pretty good.   I bought 4 sharks just to do this to scale my competitive list.

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Nerdkingdan

[IneptusAstartes]

2 hours ago, Nerdkingdan said:

I think the general idea is that the best army core is tide flip, with tidecaster, soulscryer, and 2x9 Morrsarr + battle Line leaving you 360 points to play around.   You can sub out one unit of Morrsarr for a 4 strong shark unit, its not as good but workable, and still pretty good.   I bought 4 sharks just to do this to scale my competitive list.

 

Shame that the sharks with frickin’ harpoon-launchers on their back are a mere bravery 6... the worst thing would be losing several 120-point allopexes to battleshock.

[Nerdkingdan]

8 hours ago, IneptusAstartes said:

Shame that the sharks with frickin’ harpoon-launchers on their back are a mere bravery 6... the worst thing would be losing several 120-point allopexes to battleshock.

I've seen the argument sharks are better in a King general army for the plus 1 attack, inclusion of Ishlean to tie things up, and more likely to have access to the command point to avoid the battle shock test.   This is not as an effective list as the tide flip, but again I've been looking to scale my army down to face locals who are not as competitive.   The thought is they have rend outside the charge so will be better on that turn 3 for plus 1 attack command ability.

Another solution is to put them in a list with Akhelian corps and I believe you get access to a battle shock reroll.   Again less competitive, but playable.

I am of the thought you want 1 big unit, or none.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Nerdkingdan