AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[zombiepiratexxx]

Nets, trident, make yourselves some Retiarii!  

[Acid_Nine]

I prefer to keep the warcry warbands where they belong; stone dead on the floor, with their souls in a crystal for later use!

[Curzex]

Hi guys, after play more than 30 games im so bored of this army, always turn 3 instant win ir just my rivals dont want to play more. 

 

Are you guys in the same.situation?

Are idoneth over powered in no competitive meta??

I think sell the army and buy another one.

Can you help me ?

[Aelven supremacy]

Just now, Curzex said:

Hi guys, after play more than 30 games im so bored of this army, always turn 3 instant win ir just my rivals dont want to play more. 

 

Are you guys in the same.situation?

Are idoneth over powered in no competitive meta??

I think sell the army and buy another one.

Can you help me ?

Who are you playing?  Are you entering big tournaments?

[Curzex]

2 minutes ago, Aelven supremacy said:

Who are you playing?  Are you entering big tournaments?

Just local meta, no tournaments.

I got volturnos, 1 king 1 turtle 1 eidolon 12 eels ,10 reavers, 10 tralls 1 shark and all foot heroes.

My group are Nighthaunt Stormcast beastclaw Riders silvaneth and beastmen

Edited July 23, 2019 by Curzex

[Aelven supremacy]

1 minute ago, Curzex said:

Just local meta, no tournaments.

I got volturnos, 1 king 1 turtle 1 eidolon 12 eels ,10 reavers, 10 tralls 1 shark and all foot heroes.

My group are Nighthaunt Stormcast beastclaw Riders silvaneth and beastmen

It’s not the most competitive of groups so that’s going to be a problem.   How do you do against Sylvaneth?   Does the Beastmen player play Tzaangors or normal beasts?   It’s a bit cheeky for a Beastclaw Raiders to complain about playing a certain army when their army is going to have a tough time beating any army.   Maybe drop the eels and buy more of the other units to give your opponents a better chance.   Ultimately though I recommend finding some tournaments as you will find more of a challenge there.

[Curzex]

Vs silvaneth i just Tank shoots with turtle + tanky eels then kill with volturnos or morsguard. Beastmen have not the tzangor part (because he dont want, my first armie is tzeench and i got 12 disc + 60 tzangor)

[Aelven supremacy]

1 minute ago, Curzex said:

Vs silvaneth i just Tank shoots with turtle + tanky eels then kill with volturnos or morsguard. Beastmen have not the tzangor part (because he dont want, my first armie is tzeench and i got 12 disc + 60 tzangor)

I’m starting a DoK army myself at the moment and just saw your post in that board.   If you are looking for something less competitive than Idoneth don’t go for DoK, you’ll continue auto-winning everything even with snakes.   Honestly with Tzaangors, Idoneth and then DoK as your preferences you need to be looking at tournaments to get a good game in, your local scene isn’t doing anything for you.   To play with your local scene just get a worse faction, something like Seraphon where you really have to play the objectives game well could give you a challenge whilst creating a better play experience for your mates 

[Curzex]

Puffff the thing is when i start a faction i see first thee miniatures. And i really like DoK or maybe just troggots theme.armie, the other thing i cabe do is maybe go for a full infantry idoneth deepkin but that is expensivee and boring probably.

Maybe my mates should be more competitive.

[Aelven supremacy]

5 minutes ago, Curzex said:

Puffff the thing is when i start a faction i see first thee miniatures. And i really like DoK or maybe just troggots theme.armie, the other thing i cabe do is maybe go for a full infantry idoneth deepkin but that is expensivee and boring probably.

Maybe my mates should be more competitive.

Honestly go Troggoths then for playing in your local meta.  Will give everyone a much better experience 

[tripchimeras]

You don't need to leave deepkin to be less competitive.  Try things like taking the turtle, the eidolan of the sea, and the shark at the same time.  I'd recommend buying a couple more boxes of the infantry so you can go eel light too.  Nothing says fluff like tangled up units of 30 namarti haha. 

If you are still winning pretty much all of your games and are taking few eels, and investing huge amounts of points in single models that should make objective capture more difficult, I think you may need to consider why you are beating your friends.  Is it truly the lists being taken or are they playing push hammer while you are actually strategizing?  Do they really only care about painting and narrative?  If your gaming values don't mesh, perhaps you need to look at finding a more competitive group, but if they do want to get better at the game, it sounds like you have sound list design instincts so maybe just learn their books a bit and try to help them build better lists (and convince beastclaw raiders player to buy a new army).

if an infantry heavy deepkin list with all of the unoptimized characters etc can't at least give them a fighters chance, I am not entirely sure you're solution is to plop down ~$500 on a compendium army in an effort to keep things balanced.

 

Sylvaneth and stormcast should be fine against a non alpha list (new sylvaneth might be fine even against eels I haven't read book yet), beastmen will be fine against an unoptimized deepkin list if they have tzangor I would think,  Beastclaw are screwed against everyone until they get a new book though imo.

 

EDIT:  One more idea.  Have you guys considered switching armies for a game or two?  Like you play nighthaunts and they play your deepkin?  Don't know how good friends you are, but if you are I am sure you can trust one another with your models for a game.  Think that can be a great way to better understand what opponent is going through, and diagnose issues for both of you.  Also will make them happy to drub you for a game if the lists really are that out of whack.

Edited July 23, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Nerdkingdan]

 

6 hours ago, Curzex said:

Hi guys, after play more than 30 games im so bored of this army, always turn 3 instant win ir just my rivals dont want to play more. 

 

Are you guys in the same.situation?

Are idoneth over powered in no competitive meta??

I think sell the army and buy another one.

Can you help me ?

 

Buy wood and sea, if you still win try sylvaneth.  That is my plan to fight friends who are not competitive.

 

[Graftonianman]

6 hours ago, tripchimeras said:

EDIT:  One more idea.  Have you guys considered switching armies for a game or two?  Like you play nighthaunts and they play your deepkin?  Don't know how good friends you are, but if you are I am sure you can trust one another with your models for a game.  Think that can be a great way to better understand what opponent is going through, and diagnose issues for both of you.  Also will make them happy to drub you for a game if the lists really are that out of whack.

I recommend this as well. 

Also, try varying the scenarios. Different point values, battleplans, etc. There’s a lot of guidance in all the books that’s been published in the last few years. 

[Incineroar87]

What have people been using for Deepkin Meeting Engagements ?  Is Eel spam still superior here ?

[tripchimeras]

3 hours ago, Incineroar87 said:

What have people been using for Deepkin Meeting Engagements ?  Is Eel spam still superior here ?

Eel spam is if possible more OP in meeting engagement then it is in 2k from my experience so far.  Which granted has been over a limited period of time.

That is the short answer.  My long answer reasoning is below should anyone care to read more, though I have been told elsewhere on these forums that I am obsessive in my posting about the format and only post negative "dribble", so please do ignore if you share those opinions, though I will re-iterate that I do really enjoy the format at the end of the day.  Additionally I will do my best to keep this solely focused on the tactical implications for our power builds and remove any bias or complaints about the format itself unless it specifically pertains to our lists tactics:

Meeting Engagement is all about movement, and we have that in spades.  Our high movement compensates for the tiered deployment which forces most armies to be splintered in different places, but for us its little hindrance.  The other big thing is that in a normal 2k game it can be difficult to get to turn 3 in-tact for the big ASF turn + king powers (one of the reasons why I prefer fliptide), but in meeting engagement turn 3 is by design the killing field turn where everything is finally out on the table, making it all of a sudden ideal for ASF.  Additionally something eel spam can struggle with is objective control, but with the introduction of kill points this significantly mutes the impact, because most every turn against most lists we are going to be winning kill points with fewer models with more wounds, which are all hammers, we have a distinct advantage.  Not only that because of the split deployment and our super fast movement we can gun it to objectives that in a normal game our opponent would either have coverage for on turn 1 or b. have counter's in the area making it inadvisedly risky. 

Generally the best way to counter eel spam/alpha lists is to strategically deploy so all of your best killers are bubble wrapped and the only thing for eels to charge are disposable chaffe, or something that gets them tangled in a web of combats forcing them to get stuck into combat which morrsarr don't want. However, Meeting Engagement specifically targets a players ability to do either of these things.  The lower point values inherently mean that screener/chaffe units are likely the first units to get the boot in list design to make the smaller point level, and the tiered deployment forces your army to be split up and apportioned across different areas of the board (at least in most of the scenarios).  This causes the perfect storm for eel lists where we can have our opponent nicely separated into bite sized chunks for us to do with what we will.   Even when screeners are present, it is next to impossible to screen coming into deployment with such a small deployment strip, which means eels that came on a turn earlier and gunned it towards that deployment zone can have their pickings of whatever comes out.  The turn mechanics also work to our advantage.  The single biggest way competitive players use and twist turn mechanics to their advantage is through screaners and combat denial, things that are very difficult to accomplish in meeting engagement for many of the reasons I have already outlined.  This means that in order to control for the double turn (unless you are going bold and just trying to play the dice gods on it) movement is really the only decent way to control it.  Make sure you are out of a double turn charge range.  Since we are going to out move vast majority of other armies, we are better equipped to try this then most.  Last of all the number of armies that have access to high movement alpha strikers that hit like hammers as battleline units are very small.  This means that we are going to be one of the few armies that can bring almost any power projection to bear on turn 2 through non-hero/behemoth means, since only battle line units can have size increased in phase 2.  This is a huge boon for us. 

I think a king/volturnos is the auto include for a power gamer in meeting engagement.  I have yet to solo eel spam in it, because non of my friends have an army that can compete in the format the way we can, but even without going full eel spam, I have found it to very much be easy mode for us against most lists.  Are we at the tippy top of the meta in Meeting Engagement, where as we are probably somewhere around #5 in 2k?  I am unsure, that def will take time to find out, but I can say this, there are not a lot of armies that will be able to match us.  Likely just things like Morathi lists are going to give us trouble (this is a random thought of an example, haven't played one in meeting engagement nor given it thought, so could be a bad example).

Edited July 24, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Curzex]

I will try my last chance with a proxie list vs beastmen

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Dhom-Hain
Isharann Soulrender (80)
- Artefact: Terrornight Venom 
Isharann Soulrender (80)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony 
10 x Namarti Reavers (130)
10 x Namarti Reavers (130)
10 x Namarti Reavers (130)
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)
Akhelian Leviadon (350)
Namarti Corps (100)

Total: 1490 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 91

 

 

[Dantum]

I know this information is probably disseminated throughout either the Faqs or this chat but what are the terrain rules for the IDK's ship after the 2019 update?

[Maddpainting]

The problem is we have 2 FAQs, normally its Army rules trumps Core rules, but also its Newest rules trumps older rules.

I would do this: If you are playing with all the new terrain rules play the CA FAQ's, if you are not, play the IDK FAQ's.

Everyone i know and talk to still dont know if the new terrain rules are finalized and no one is playing them. Most also dont like the chart (roll once for chart 1 or chart 2, then roll the D6, repeat for each terrain) so we just been rolling D12's like it should have been.

I was at a tournament 2 weeks ago (took first, but it was small local event). One of the opponents was mad that i was using the IDK faq, instead of the CA faq (But it didnt matter b.c the TO said we are not using the CA terrain rules) He honestly was mad b.c i was winning so i ignored him and had the TO talk to him.
 

[Leonhart040]

Hi people! I'm starting some small 1000 point armies to have a bit of variety, and for the Idoneth I thought of something like that:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin 
- Enclave: Fuethan

Isharann Tidecaster - General- 
Command Trait : Born From Agony
Artefact : Bauble of Buoyancy
Lore of the Deeps : Tide of Fear

Isharann Soulscryer

10 x Namarti Thralls
10 x Namarti Thralls
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard

Prismatic Palisade

Briefly, tidecaster is essential for Fuethan rules and can grab objectives easy with fly, Ishlaen will take objectives or bait the enemy while morsarr charges directly. Thralls will enter together with the soulscryer on the enemy's rearguard. 
What do you think?

[Kelsicle]

21 hours ago, Leonhart040 said:

Hi people! I'm starting some small 1000 point armies to have a bit of variety, and for the Idoneth I thought of something like that:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin 
- Enclave: Fuethan

Isharann Tidecaster - General- 
Command Trait : Born From Agony
Artefact : Bauble of Buoyancy
Lore of the Deeps : Tide of Fear

Isharann Soulscryer

10 x Namarti Thralls
10 x Namarti Thralls
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard

Prismatic Palisade

Briefly, tidecaster is essential for Fuethan rules and can grab objectives easy with fly, Ishlaen will take objectives or bait the enemy while morsarr charges directly. Thralls will enter together with the soulscryer on the enemy's rearguard. 
What do you think?

 

Tidecaster can’t fly

[robbobobo]

26 minutes ago, Kelsicle said:

 

Tidecaster can’t fly 

The Tidecaster can; it has a Bauble of Buoyancy.

I do like the list, though. Let us know how it goes in the smaller games!

[Dantum]

On 7/31/2019 at 8:14 PM, Maddpainting said:

The problem is we have 2 FAQs, normally its Army rules trumps Core rules, but also its Newest rules trumps older rules.

I would do this: If you are playing with all the new terrain rules play the CA FAQ's, if you are not, play the IDK FAQ's.

Everyone i know and talk to still dont know if the new terrain rules are finalized and no one is playing them. Most also dont like the chart (roll once for chart 1 or chart 2, then roll the D6, repeat for each terrain) so we just been rolling D12's like it should have been.

I was at a tournament 2 weeks ago (took first, but it was small local event). One of the opponents was mad that i was using the IDK faq, instead of the CA faq (But it didnt matter b.c the TO said we are not using the CA terrain rules) He honestly was mad b.c i was winning so i ignored him and had the TO talk to him.
 

Thanks for the knowledge, hopefully they hash out which rules to follow.  

[Drofnum]

On 7/31/2019 at 6:14 PM, Maddpainting said:

The problem is we have 2 FAQs, normally its Army rules trumps Core rules, but also its Newest rules trumps older rules.

I would do this: If you are playing with all the new terrain rules play the CA FAQ's, if you are not, play the IDK FAQ's.

Everyone i know and talk to still dont know if the new terrain rules are finalized and no one is playing them. Most also dont like the chart (roll once for chart 1 or chart 2, then roll the D6, repeat for each terrain) so we just been rolling D12's like it should have been.

I was at a tournament 2 weeks ago (took first, but it was small local event). One of the opponents was mad that i was using the IDK faq, instead of the CA faq (But it didnt matter b.c the TO said we are not using the CA terrain rules) He honestly was mad b.c i was winning so i ignored him and had the TO talk to him.
 

Not really sure where the confusion is here.  The GHB FAQ states that you follow the terrain setup rules plus any additional ones for the specific terrain piece. Which essentially means you take the most restrictive from each place and combine them, for ships you place them at least 3" from any other terrain pieces, 6" from Objectives and 6" from other shipwrecks.

As for the terrain setup mini game the consensus seems to be just ignore it, its what everyone near me is doing, its just a waste of 20-30 minutes to set up a table and never needed to be there in the first place.

What is CA?

[Kelsicle]

8 hours ago, robbobobo said:

The Tidecaster can; it has a Bauble of Buoyancy.

Touché

[Maddpainting]

OOPS im used to CA as in chapter approve i also play 40k I meant GH, but thats what i was says, if you are play GH use the GH ones (Tho still fallow the rules for use too), but i meant you can not override our faq with the GH faq if you are playing GH terrain rules.

But again the problem is not everyone is playing with the GH rules right now for terrain.