AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Drofnum]

18 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo the lev and the Eidolons would need to go down to 300 and the lev perhaps even lower. 

They‘re a handicap if you pick them 😕

The Eidolons really arent that bad.  Ignore Verminlords for a minute and they only need to drop to 350-380 and they would be pretty solid.

I've played them at the old points and had success at large events, its really not as bad as expressed here.

[tripchimeras]

5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo the lev and the Eidolons would need to go down to 300 and the lev perhaps even lower. 

They‘re a handicap if you pick them 😕

I think this is an exaggeration on the Eidolon.  The Eidolon are definitely overcosted, but I don't think they are 100 and 120pts overcosted, I think you are comparing them to skaven in which case everything in the game is over-priced basically, when really I think we should be comparing them internally within the book.  At 350 I think people take an Eidolon competitively.  Could be wrong, but 100pt reduction seems like overkill.

I agree the Leviadon probably should be 300-320, but again in its current state, once you have built the core list I don't know if you are taking as significant  a hit to efficiency in taking it, at least in theory.  It is definitely something I want to get some test games with to find out.  There is certainly some handicap there, but how significant of one?  Are 6 morrsarr better then a Leviadon?  Yes,  but I think the efficiency difference is less when the "leftover" points you have are limited.  If you could take a full unit of 9 morrsarr with the points you have left after core construction and taking a Leviadon would mean you could only take 3 more, the efficiency difference there is going to pretty huge.  But as it stands with the "flip-tide" build you can't do that, so a single leviadon vs a single unit of 6 morrsarr I think is closer in value, particularly when that leviathon has a potential augment ability on the 18 you already have.  Occasionally a little inefficiency is worth expanded tactical options.  Again I think probably at the end of the day there is a more efficient and effective use for those 360pts (I'd lean towards the extra infantry or ishlaen guard) but I think the difference is less then it was, simply because there is less that you can do with the extra points available now then there were before.

[Aelven supremacy]

9 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

The Eidolons really arent that bad.  Ignore Verminlords for a minute and they only need to drop to 350-380 and they would be pretty solid.

I've played them at the old points and had success at large events, its really not as bad as expressed here.

Yeah at old points I even took 2 Storms to a one dayer (with 9 Morrsarr) and did alright.    I’ve never desired a Sea over a Storm but the Storm can have a place.

[JackStreicher]

30 namartii or 6-8 eels > Leviadon/Eidolons

they deal more damage, can tank longer and are more/ equally fast with more bodies to take objectives. 🤷🏼‍♂️

It really feels (to me at least) like you seal your fate by taking one of them IF you do not go eel-heavy 

[Drofnum]

9 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

30 namartii or 6-8 eels > Leviadon/Eidolons

they deal more damage, can tank longer and are more/ equally fast with more bodies to take objectives. 🤷🏼‍♂️

It really feels (to me at least) like you seal your fate by taking one of them IF you do not go eel-heavy 

Sure until you get in to Duality of Death and those eels and Namarti cant hold objectives for you.  

There is a place for them, and quite honestly my Sea Eidolon has tanked more damage than just about any other unit in my army in most games I take him in.  He is still one of the few units that can get a 2+ rerollable, he's prone to MW's but there are ways to mitigate that like artifacts.

I do agree with your last point though, I've tested an Eidolon/Namarti Corps army and its pretty awful, Eidolonn/King/Eels and go for turn 3 high tide is quite effective though.

[tripchimeras]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

30 namartii or 6-8 eels > Leviadon/Eidolons

they deal more damage, can tank longer and are more/ equally fast with more bodies to take objectives. 🤷🏼‍♂️

It really feels (to me at least) like you seal your fate by taking one of them IF you do not go eel-heavy 

I think that last part is the key though, if you are already taking 18 eels I think the efficiency penalty is significantly less.  And none of these models inherently is too expensive to prevent you from taking 2 big blocks of them.  As long as you have that, I think you going to be in the top half of a tourney field if you are skilled no?

And as for your first point, lets be clear 30 namartii are 40pts more then a leviadon and 9 ishlaen guard are 70pts more , and in a vacuum that does not seem like a big deal, but again lists aren't made in a vacuum, and because you cannot buy individual models in AoS and have to buy a full unit, its just not as easy as it seems like it is to free up an extra 40pts, especially with deepkin where we have nothing worth taking for less then 100.  In the previous discussion about the Leviadon for example we were talking about a flip tide list that in essence has 360pts not tied up in "requirements" for a competitive build.  That is 20 namarti plus change and 6 eels plus change.  In either case I think the efficiency loss is significantly less then before.

[JackStreicher]

4 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

I think that last part is the key though, if you are already taking 18 eels I think the efficiency penalty is significantly less.  And none of these models inherently is too expensive to prevent you from taking 2 big blocks of them.  As long as you have that, I think you going to be in the top half of a tourney field if you are skilled no?

And as for your first point, lets be clear 30 namartii are 40pts more then a leviadon and 9 ishlaen guard are 70pts more , and in a vacuum that does not seem like a big deal, but again lists aren't made in a vacuum, and because you cannot buy individual models in AoS and have to buy a full unit, its just not as easy as it seems like it is to free up an extra 40pts, especially with deepkin where we have nothing worth taking for less then 100.  In the previous discussion about the Leviadon for example we were talking about a flip tide list that in essence has 360pts not tied up in "requirements" for a competitive build.  That is 20 namarti plus change and 6 eels plus change.  In either case I think the efficiency loss is significantly less then before.

I am honestly not talking about competetive play. I am talking about open play/ narrative play with points (ofc)

[tripchimeras]

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I am honestly not talking about competetive play. I am talking about open play/ narrative play with points (ofc)

Shouldn't that open up your options more though then?  Why even be concerned with the fact they are less efficient in that setting?  There are armies and options that are truly useless (mostly the ones without an updated battletome) and impossible to balance they are so bad.  Of our list only real example I can think of in that space is Lotann where there is essentially no way for him to make a useful contributor to an army.  The Eidolon, turtle, and sharks at their new points? They are over-costed, but far from useless in a casual game, so long as you have some semblance of army symmetry, at least a few efficient units, and a strategic vision to use the list through. 

Hate giving anecdotal evidence, but just the other day I beat a nighthaunt list without too much issue taking an Eidolon of the Sea and only had 1 of each type of eel unit, 3 in each at 1k meeting engagement (a pt level the eidolon of the sea has no business in).  Got 1 spell off the entire game and it wasn't the good one.  It would have been absolutely ****** against a competitive list, but he was running a black coach on his end and neither of us were under any illusions that the game was "competitive".  It was fun.  What kind of narrative games are you playing where Eidolon's and turtles are next to useless and make you "uncompetitive" for the setting?

[Aelven supremacy]

12 hours ago, Drofnum said:

Sure until you get in to Duality of Death and those eels and Namarti cant hold objectives for you.  

There is a place for them, and quite honestly my Sea Eidolon has tanked more damage than just about any other unit in my army in most games I take him in.  He is still one of the few units that can get a 2+ rerollable, he's prone to MW's but there are ways to mitigate that like artifacts.

I do agree with your last point though, I've tested an Eidolon/Namarti Corps army and its pretty awful, Eidolonn/King/Eels and go for turn 3 high tide is quite effective though.

FYI in new Duality of Death Thralls can hold objectives, as can Eels in King builds 😁. Just places of power scenarios they can’t now

Edited June 28, 2019 by Aelven supremacy

[JackStreicher]

11 hours ago, tripchimeras said:

What kind of narrative games are you playing where Eidolon's and turtles are next to useless and make you "uncompetitive" for the setting?

We play a narrative in which you build up your army with each game. It‘s more about decisions in-game than list building. Yet the Eidolons and Levs cost so much that I fall short on Tactical Tools to use since the army becomes ridiculously small and those two units don‘t bring enough to the board to justify even 280 points.

[Maddpainting]

If you take both a Turtle and an Eidolon, thats 1/3 of your army (well more like 37%). When 1/2 of your army is 2 models, it could be hard.

[tripchimeras]

7 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

We play a narrative in which you build up your army with each game. It‘s more about decisions in-game than list building. Yet the Eidolons and Levs cost so much that I fall short on Tactical Tools to use since the army becomes ridiculously small and those two units don‘t bring enough to the board to justify even 280 points.

Not sure what type of escalation occurs or what the point levels in question are, but I wouldn't be considering an eidolon or lev until well past 1k.  Additionally the key to us being competitive in any environment is of course eels.  In casual you certainly don't need a spam but as long as you have ~6 in 1k and ~9 in 2k I think you are going to find that whatever else is in your list (as long as it isn't completely random and haphazardly assembled) you are likely going to find yourself competitive in most casual game settings as long as you are playing relatively tactical.  I like to include either 6 morrsarr or 3 morrsarr and 3 ishlaen in casual 1k lists, and 6-9 morrsarr and 3-6 ishlaen in a semi-casual 2k list.  I think at those numbers they tend not to feel overwhelming, but can compensate for some suboptimal choices on your part otherwise.  The more casual the less you need, but I think 9-12 eels of whatever combo you feel like is a good semi-casual spot to be, against balanced lists that aren't utter trash, but aren't necessary tourney competitive either.  I think you can get away with either Eidolan, turtles, or sharks at that level without going super eel heavy.  In competitive I think its definitely 18 minimum, most of which need to be massed morrsarr in 1 or 2 units.

 

31 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

If you take both a Turtle and an Eidolon, thats 1/3 of your army (well more like 37%). When 1/2 of your army is 2 models, it could be hard.

Yeah good point, I would not take both at the same time, as tempting as that turtle combined with an aspect of the storm armed with an ethereal gauntlet may be...  Even in casual games, I would suspect objective control is going to be very hard with so much invested in 2 models that can only really function as support pieces.

Edited June 28, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Drofnum]

8 hours ago, Aelven supremacy said:

FYI in new Duality of Death Thralls can hold objectives, as can Eels in King builds 😁. Just places of power scenarios they can’t now

Good to know.  I honestly havent looked at it much other than a quick glance at the new deployment, still working my way through all the new ones.

[Denegaar]

Hey guys! 

While I was assembling my Battleforce, a friend surprised me with a Volturnos for my birthday. 

Now, I really prefer the King model than the named character. Can I Rin into any problems if I play the King model as Volturnos? Both have a sword and a shield modeled so...

Also, do you run your kings with Polearm? The dude looks so cool with the helmet and spear.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Denegaar

[Vizzuss]

1 minute ago, Denegaar said:

Hey guys! 

While I was assembling my Battleforce, a friend surprised me with a Volturnos for my birthday. 

Now, I really prefer the King model than the named character. Can I Rin into any problems if I play the King model as Volturnos? Both have a sword and a shield modeled so...

Also, do you run your kings with Polearm? The dude looks so cool with the helmet and spear.

In theory, I should not have had problems. At the beginning of the game you specify what model it is. A greeting.

[Vizzuss]

As i said in the welcome post, here in Granada, 1500 points are played. And now i can not find a competitive list in points and in hunting targets. Some help? Thanks you guys!

I have:

- Volturnos
- 15 eels
- 1 turtle
- 20 Thralls
- 2 Soulrender
- 1 Soulcryer
- 1 Tidecaster
- 2 Allopex
- Eidolon

[Denegaar]

22 minutes ago, Vizzuss said:

As i said in the welcome post, here in Granada, 1500 points are played. And now i can not find a competitive list in points and in hunting targets. Some help? Thanks you guys!

I have:

- Volturnos
- 15 eels
- 1 turtle
- 20 Thralls
- 2 Soulrender
- 1 Soulcryer
- 1 Tidecaster
- 2 Allopex
- Eidolon

With the units you have, you'll need the King as General, so you can use eels as Battleline.

So:

- King

- Tidecaster

- 12-15 eels (6 and 6, or 9 morsarr 3 ishlaen)

- 2x 10 Thralls

- Fill with an hero of choice, or an Allopex if you feel fancy.

That would be my approach, I wouldn't play the Turtle or Eidolon in 1500pt, thats 2000pt material for me.

[Vizzuss]

27 minutes ago, Denegaar said:

With the units you have, you'll need the King as General, so you can use eels as Battleline.

So:

- King

- Tidecaster

- 12-15 eels (6 and 6, or 9 morsarr 3 ishlaen)

- 2x 10 Thralls

- Fill with an hero of choice, or an Allopex if you feel fancy.

That would be my approach, I wouldn't play the Turtle or Eidolon in 1500pt, thats 2000pt material for me. 

Aja! I assumed that the turtle and eidolon are for the 2k. Thanks for you quick response friend!

[Denegaar]

39 minutes ago, Vizzuss said:

Aja! I assumed that the turtle and eidolon are for the 2k. Thanks for you quick response friend!

More experienced players will have different opinions though, I just played a couple games with the army.

It also depends on how competitive do you want to go. The more Morrsarr the strongest, but least fun for your opponent. I'd go 12 at 1500pt with a balanced list.

[Kelsicle]

Hey all does anyone know how to get in to the Idoneth WhatsApp group?

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Kelsicle said:

Hey all does anyone know how to get in to the Idoneth WhatsApp group?

Same question

[DestroyerBirb]

9 hours ago, Vizzuss said:

As i said in the welcome post, here in Granada, 1500 points are played. And now i can not find a competitive list in points and in hunting targets. Some help? Thanks you guys!

I have:

- Volturnos
- 15 eels
- 1 turtle
- 20 Thralls
- 2 Soulrender
- 1 Soulcryer
- 1 Tidecaster
- 2 Allopex
- Eidolon

I am not a pro at Idoneth Deepkin, but heaps of eels sounds fun, we’re you imagining something like this (It is 2.5k but you can alway chop the army down)

Volturnos 280 General with Command Trait 

Ishraan Soulrender 100

6 Morrsarr Guard 340

6 Morsar Guard 340

3 Morsar Guard 170

3 Morsar Guard 170

1 Akhelion Alopex

1 Akhelion Alopex

2500/2500

[Vizzuss]

Yesterday I played against orcs, and in turn 3 I used all the command points I had in spamming Volturnos' command ability. 
 

- 20 Namarti charge with 2 basic attacks + 4 for the command ability = 120 dice.

- 6 Morsar charge with 18 attacks each hypothetically = 108 dice.

- 6 Ishalen charge, 19 attacks each hypothetically = 114 dice.

Adding that those 3 units repeat the 1 to hit, and the eels repeat the 1 to hurt for being Fuethan.

 

Everything very beautiful!

 

P.D. = to say that I bought a point of command more, so in the 3 turn, I spent the 4 points in making said spam of the ability of Volturnos.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Vizzuss

[Walrustaco]

What would I be better off with for a tournament list:

9 morsarr, 2×3 morsarr, 6 ishlaen, 3 ishlaen

Or

2×9 morsarr, 6 ishlaen

[tripchimeras]

 

4 hours ago, Walrustaco said:

What would I be better off with for a tournament list:

9 morsarr, 2×3 morsarr, 6 ishlaen, 3 ishlaen

Or

2×9 morsarr, 6 ishlaen

Assuming 2k points and have decent objective holders and board control options in the rest of your list , I would say the second build.  That is pretty much the standard.  Morrsarr optimally want to be in units of 9.  That being said I wouldn't consider this a universal rule, the rest of your list matters here too, make sure you have enough units to hold and defend objectives on your side of board while morrsarr do their killing etc.  If the rest of your list is going into Eidolon, or turtles or whatever you probably need something closer to the coverage in the first option to make up for it. 

I think if you want to experiment with more ishlaen I would change the first build to be 9 morsarr, 6 morrsarr, 6 ishlaen, 3 ishlaen OR if you need the eels to function as your primary objective holders and they are projecting the vast majority of your board control, maybe something like 9 morrsarr, 6 morrsarr, 3x3 ishlaen.  You aren't going to want 2x3 morrsarr much imo At 3 models you are looking at a support unit/ objective holder/ screaner/ hold up an enemy/ road block unit.  I think Ishlaen function significantly better in this role.  Morrsarr are meant for killing and charging with 9 as the optimal number, and 6 still worthy, while I think Ishlaen function more effectively as 3-6 model units, not to say 9 wouldn't work for them too.

Edited July 1, 2019 by tripchimeras